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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28612630 - 01/07/24 06:05 AM (21 days, 7 hours ago)

Why call it 'psychoneural'? To me this would imply a much tighter correlation between qaualia or psychelogical experience and neural activity than we have

I would focus on the two sides individually until there is a tight enough correlation to bridge them


Edited by Freedom (01/07/24 06:06 AM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28612722 - 01/07/24 07:49 AM (21 days, 6 hours ago)

what are you considering a circuit?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
    #28612727 - 01/07/24 07:55 AM (21 days, 6 hours ago)

PMCs?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28612764 - 01/07/24 08:39 AM (21 days, 5 hours ago)

cool

i've always been able to see amazing Pareidolia in the background noise of the pixels. the more i pay attention to it the more detailed and realistic it gets. Its amazing because what appears there can be different than any art or fantasy I've seen or what I would imagine through trying to imagine.

at times I've had something similar in the auditory channel. like complex amazing music that's like classical music but with instruments I've never heard before.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28612861 - 01/07/24 10:45 AM (21 days, 3 hours ago)

'emergence' doesn't get around the 'hard problem'

the emergence in physical and biological phenomenon can be explained

consciousness? we haven't a clue. there is a gap that I can't see how to cross. we can correlate neural phenomena with qualia, but how do we connect them?

The emergent properties of other systems don't have gaps.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28612915 - 01/07/24 11:26 AM (21 days, 2 hours ago)

what creates color? dancing ions?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
    #28612924 - 01/07/24 11:37 AM (21 days, 2 hours ago)

you can follow a chain of cuasiation from a photon changing the conformation of retinol all the way to the occipital cortex and you can look at all the controbutions from other brain areas

but there is a gap between the chain of causation in the neural pathways to the expreince of color


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28612949 - 01/07/24 12:09 PM (21 days, 1 hour ago)

i think there is an assumption there that consciousness is created.

it may be that there is something like a field of consciousness, and that the movement of ions perturbs that conscious ness in ways that create changes in that consciousness. that the feed back loops and physical patterns are there to create patterns in the consciousness


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28612971 - 01/07/24 12:29 PM (21 days, 1 hour ago)

I don't see consciousness as having any degrees. Either I'm conscious or not. That consciousness can be of simple forms or complex forms, yet that capacity to be aware is not lesser or greater because of the forms

yeah I wouldn't assume there is a field of consciousness. Its the hypothosis my mind comes up with when looking for consciousness having physical origin, which is also an assumption


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28613007 - 01/07/24 01:03 PM (21 days, 52 minutes ago)

turning out what way?

I'm more interested in finding the field of possibility than finding one part of that field and trying to believe in it


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28613031 - 01/07/24 01:24 PM (21 days, 32 minutes ago)

how could we possibly know? there is nothing outside of our consciousness to validate our theories of physicality. all evidence, all observation, all corroboration occurs within consciousness


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28613034 - 01/07/24 01:25 PM (21 days, 30 minutes ago)

and further, consciousness itself is not a thing that can be observed


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28613051 - 01/07/24 01:49 PM (21 days, 7 minutes ago)

what do you mean?

every system of belief is groundless. they all depend on a premise. I have no problem acknowledging or living knowing that.

is there some final answer  about the nature of mind or the universe? maybe. I'm surely curious about it all.

its like some people say god created everything. other people say, 'that's absurd, obviously this is an explosion that came out of nothing'

or someone else might say, "oh no, this has always been here, its infintitely old"



I've been wondering and thinking about this at least since I was 5 or so


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28613063 - 01/07/24 02:12 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago)

would you be willing to explain that? or point to where you did?

what is outside of your consciousness?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28613075 - 01/07/24 02:28 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago)

do you have any explanation for the idea?

I get that we all have a model of an external reality. I believe its possible that there is an external reality, but how can we know if its there or not?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28613105 - 01/07/24 02:47 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

But an explanation for the 'idea', or how we can know if 'it' is there or not aren't clear starting points from my perspective.






you said,
Quote:

Things don't usually not have physical origins, none I'm aware of.




I'm wondering how this is constructed in your mind. Are you just assuming that this is true? If not, what is your reasoning?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28613137 - 01/07/24 03:16 PM (20 days, 22 hours ago)

yes and I have been part of that chain, doing research in virology and neuroscience

however everything I experienced, all the text books i read, all the experiments I performed, all the papers I helped write happened within my consciousness, as far as i can tell.

it may be that these events also happened in some external reality, but how can I know that?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28613159 - 01/07/24 03:30 PM (20 days, 22 hours ago)

i will not

no

i wont

ah fuck it

that is the way :lol:


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28613181 - 01/07/24 03:50 PM (20 days, 22 hours ago)

You say there are environmental stimuli, but that's the exact assumption I'm asking about. To say that you know there is an external environment because our sensory systems evolved to interpret exteranal stimuli allready assumes that there are external stimuli.

 

My question isn't rhetorical

I've never understood how or why people believe things, or say they do. Its hard for me to comprehend that people do believe things. So it fascinates me, especially because there is so much seperation between groups and conflict based on belief.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28613213 - 01/07/24 04:29 PM (20 days, 21 hours ago)

I know it sounds kind of crazy, that this could be like a dream.

Yet the existence of anything, dream or physical, color or wavelength is unexplainable, as far as i can tell. This fundamental lack of ground means I have no way to compare

its like saying which impossible thing is more likely, that a world exists out there and creates my consciousness and experience of the world, or that the world is an illusion created by consciousness in the same way as a dream.

I can't comprehend either, they both are deeply mysterious.


Evolution may happen in a world, it may be a dream within a dream.


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