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Bloomer
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27467871 - 09/14/21 10:21 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Right? Just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean we should believe it to be true. I assume unprovable cases are like most cases in that proof is not needed, you can discern the right answer from probability. If I present a wart to a doctor they don't have to test for contact with witch DNA or ask if I've been cursed recently before treating it as a viral infection.

When I found a quarter under my pillow as a kid, I innocently calculated that it was probably one of my parent's quarters that they placed there when they disturbed my pillow shortly before waking me up. When my parents admitted the tooth fairy wasn't real, I didn't demand proof and cling to the idea.

The way people borrow each other's mysticism is evidence to me that it's indoctrinated foolishness. If non-reality had any influence on reality we'd see random chaos instead of cause and effect. Rick and Morty is maybe a good example of a magical, fictional reality. Instead, the magic phenomena people report is limited to a specific, historical set of indoctrinated interpretations and mythologies. Points to a probability of mysticism being a product of nurture rather than our nature.

And in the tiny reality of a chance that consciousness isn't a physical phenomena, what would that imply? It just opens more unanswerable improbabilities than the evolution theory. It's not an attractive idea unless you believe that having a fictional relationship with the supernatural can give you rockstar powers or eternal life.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27469851 - 09/15/21 08:09 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for putting a definition on neutrality bias. That's exactly what some religious people hide behind. The belief that the world is in the hands of a higher power and all events are part of a destiny is neutrality bias isn't it? It's a neutral, non-dualistic dismissal of right vs wrong and probabilistic evidence to avoid challenges to their own beliefs.


How do you guys think music plays a role in consciousness? It seems like something as old to man as consciousness. The ability to read the present, past and predict the future is all required to keep a rhythm. Most animals seem unconscious of musical patterns. Maybe some exceptions for birds and dolphins but language and rhythm mostly require consciousness. And music is a good exercise of awareness. In a way, you can make anything in life 'musical' if you're good at it; like rap, sports, or hand skills. As you practice you 'get the rhythm' and it becomes a behavior from predictive repetition. It's also described as 'flow' when you tap into that deep, rhythmic consciousness.

I think it's interesting that hallucinations respond to music. Like if I'm hallucinating a mandala of colorful orbs and also play music the mandala rotates at a different pace and the orbs change their pulse to the rhythm of the music and the shapes snap to different forms on beat. How can the visuals do that without some kind of predictive machine, ie our brains.

You need some more intuitive graphics for your concept RGV, like these models on flow:


Edited by Icon (09/15/21 08:34 PM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27469976 - 09/15/21 10:22 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Icon said: The belief that the world is in the hands of a higher power and all events are part of a destiny is neutrality bias isn't it? It's a neutral, non-dualistic dismissal of right vs wrong and probabilistic evidence to avoid challenges to their own beliefs




Is divine fate a neutrality bias?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

I think a neutrality bias would appear in more context, but it can also mean not correcting factual untruths or errors on the grounds of giving everyone an opportunity to express their opinion



Like, a delusionally neutral person when asked about their views on the holocaust might say "We cannot determine the ultimate will and ways of the supreme being so we should not attempt to judge the actions of any man, its creation." And skirt around other ethical dilemmas by clinging to shreds of doubt that things aren't as they seem. Usually because corruption of morality on a holocaust level casts doubt on an omnipresent and graceful creator. It's safer for them to remain neutral and pass the buck down to an undefinable destiny.

And that attitude does lead to manipulation, like blind faith that things aren't that bad or even meant to be. The same people play devil's advocate when reasoning a rape victim asked for it, a black person is projecting racism, or a poor person doesn't try hard enough. There's evidence of systemic corruption but it's presented neutrally or as an individual's problem. Like oh man the climate is changing what could be the cause, maybe if we all recycle it'll just go away. Instead of addressing and holding accountable the corrupt production practices that are completely unhinged from social ethics. I'm sort of rambling maybe this isn't related to neutrality bias.


Edited by Icon (09/15/21 11:22 PM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27470282 - 09/16/21 07:45 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Is this related?
https://elifesciences.org/articles/59784

Quote:

Psychedelic drugs are potent modulators of conscious states and therefore powerful tools for investigating their neurobiology. N,N, Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) can rapidly induce an extremely immersive state of consciousness characterized by vivid and elaborate visual imagery. Here, we investigated the electrophysiological correlates of the DMT-induced altered state from a pool of participants receiving DMT and (separately) placebo (saline) while instructed to keep their eyes closed. Consistent with our hypotheses, results revealed a spatio-temporal pattern of cortical activation (i.e. travelling waves) similar to that elicited by visual stimulation. Moreover, the typical top-down alpha-band rhythms of closed-eyes rest were significantly decreased, while the bottom-up forward wave was significantly increased. These results support a recent model proposing that psychedelics reduce the ‘precision-weighting of priors’, thus altering the balance of top-down versus bottom-up information passing. The robust hypothesis-confirming nature of these findings imply the discovery of an important mechanistic principle underpinning psychedelic-induced altered states.




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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27477774 - 09/22/21 05:15 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I think almost everything is based on habit and precondition, as opposed to divine source. Like some people look to modern technology as evidence that we're in contact with alien species or have god's blessings. When it's actually a pretty slow, methodical process of solving one problem, adopting that behavior or technology, that technology leading to new opportunities or challenges. There's a British documentary called Connections that illustrates my point well. Everything is connected to the past. Things like automobiles could not have been developed before so many other industries and technologies came together throughout history. You can't have 1 day shipping on a wooden wagon for example, so a prerequisite to Amazon would be the rubber tire industry, flight, electronics, etc. You can trace everything back to habitual needs and adopted behavior/tech; the cycle of surviving and thriving that we're stuck in. Bezos, Ford, Goodyear were not saints, they were just humans with habits (and a lot of power/wealth).


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27477813 - 09/22/21 06:11 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

What's your motivation for defining consciousness? I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if I missed that.

I think getting into the nitty gritty of which neuron is firing which direction and causing each and every thought is a bit unnecessary. I think we both agree on the bigger picture being biologically evolved but who are we trying to prove it to? Instead of analyzing the fine hairs to determine that we're looking at an elephant can't we just back up and say yep, looks like an elephant? Occam's razor. I don't think any level of proof will convince the believers who already have their eyes closed.

Mindfulness is good, don't get me wrong. I'm glad we're aware of our habits. The neuroscience talk goes over my head tho. Are we hoping to cure addiction by magnetizing certain neurons or something? What can a 101 understanding of consciousness do for the average person? That's the same question I ask of faith.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27478127 - 09/22/21 11:10 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

My initial motivation for exploring those questions was to discover/develop superpowers. Like telepathy, astral projection, eternal life, and all the other fun powers the occult promise. All that juicy alchemical, ancient egyptian, alien power. Even basic Christians seek out some of that mystical power via prayer. Or some material gains like writing the next McAfee antivirus after dropping acid, or tapping into alpha energy on mushrooms to pickup women. The new age conspiracy theories leading up to 2012 were a huge influence on me. After that passed it seemed like oh, this is how people have been fooling and grifting each other for millenia.

I've also had close friends and loved ones die over the past few years that has greatly affected my mystical views. Life to me is very short, fragile, precious. I don't get the impression that it's protected, looked after, has a designed purpose or plotted course to other worlds. My trips and analysis of life's greatest questions have led me to think that we worry about it too much. I've spent trips sitting there psychotically plotting out some clever akashic knowledge, instead of being social and growing as a person. The definitions get in the way sometimes I think. Like those jokes "A priest, rabbi, shaman, scientist all walk into a bar. . ." after we loosen up and learn to enjoy each other's company the identities seem to fade away. At the end of the day if it's not solving a medical issue or social issue the understandings are just self-soothing stories.

I like this description by Alan Watts, "We thought of life by analogy with a journey; with a pilgrimage, which had a serious purpose at the end, and the thing was to get to that end. Success or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along. It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or to dance."

It kind of ties into the rhythm metaphor. But that's why I ask what RGV's motivation is, because if life is a rhythmic dance to be enjoyed by us it doesn't serve us to think too hard about it. Life is short. If you focus your attention on your dancing or rhythm it's sometimes a distraction. I'm not a musical person but I've heard that thinking too much about it throws you off and you have to just commit and go with the flow. That sums up my latest philosophy, that theorizing is stepping away from the dance itself. But if you come back with some sweet new moves then I wanna see.


Edited by Icon (09/22/21 11:24 AM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27481707 - 09/25/21 11:26 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

step F detailing consequences doesn't always happen tho. Sometimes you murder 9 people with no repercussions so by the 10th I wouldn't blame him for not even feeling bad about it. Maybe he did feel guilty the first time.

That's part of what makes me think that morality isn't defined by anything but ourselves. If god was enforcing morality the people who make bad choices would always meet unfavorable consequences. But that's just not the case, people get away with so much for so long, humans are clearly dictating and in control of enforcing. Something that is totally morally wrong like an employer requiring an employee to be twice as productive to make up for an absence, without compensating them double. Fools would get their skulls split with a club in the caveman days but now the system is setup to take advantage and distort morality, at least numb the consequences. A story of final judgement and afterlife seems like a tool to keep us sitting back and letting bad things happen without consequence. And christian's twist it where you're welcome to sin as much as you want as long as you say sorry before you die.

I was robbed by a 'friend' who is a christian. They didn't leave one fucking penny, took it all. Did not show any remorse, no guilt or regret, still no confession. There's no fucking morality or karma or consequences out there. I did something horribly righteous in return and there hasn't been any consequence for my vengeance. Either god works in mysterious ways by giving me a free pass to balance the scales, or it's really a free for all. That's why addiction and shit is possible. Losing some teeth is a slap on the wrist to a meth head. Drinking a soda doesn't perceivably punish you until you're 400lbs. It's stupid human brains that can't see the consequences because too often there aren't any. A conscious god wouldn't allow that. Poor design.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28613735 - 01/08/24 07:05 AM (20 days, 6 hours ago)

Found a clip that you'd like RGV:

30:00 - 33:45

He estimates 100,000,000,000 neurons, each with 50,000 dendrites, which could be in contact with 50,000 other dendrites. Someone calculated 10 trillion connections, and the number of different ways that a thought could travel through the brain is more than there are atoms in the entire universe. The average brain with an average high schooler's lexicon of 12,000 words listening to a sentence and deciphering it at the rate of 1 neuron per ms, would take 12s to understand each syllable. So to keep up understanding in a live conversation, our brains are not simply listening and running the sound through a list, but predicting the next sound that is most likely to fit, greatly reducing the amount of checks that are actually made and still coming out understanding what was said.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28614922 - 01/09/24 07:45 AM (19 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I work with slightly different numbers eg 80 billion neurons in the brain of various types, and he is talking about 100 billion neurons of one type (i.e. having 50000 dendrites).
so basically oversimplifying.
simple is good, too simple is not so good.

I also do not consider that we are predicting meanings as he and many AI aficionados are promoting and as LLM's seem to be doing.

but he is stirring the pot and making people think.
that is good.

I did not and would not watch the whole video but if there is a transcript I might read it or scan it.



Did you watch his joke and theory about humor being related to thought connectivity? He suggests that, if we are predicting the end of a sentence in real time, but the speaker says something unexpected as a joke, it's rewarding to the brain to turn down a previously unestablished path through the neurons to appreciate a new association / way of thinking about something. Kind of makes sense to me, humor being so effective in lowering people's guard and opening them to thinking about things differently. His speech is filled with jokes, maybe thats why I liked it so much.


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