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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27454195 - 09/02/21 09:46 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

My primary cortical neurons need a little more repetition than most these days to do their job.

Speaking of which, I can't remember if I already said this or not, but bravo RGV. Your chart is a thesis-- of brevity, and weight. 

Quote:

laughingdog said:

.  A funny thing about consciousness is that it depends upon itself. Not to be conscious that one is conscious, is in a sense not to be conscious. This is an aspect of dreaming, where there is some consciousness, but it is, what we might call, a deluded consciousness, as the self in a dream, often does not correspond to what the self ordinarily takes itself to be.





I like that. But I don't think AI has anything remotely approaching the consciousness of a trilobite yet.

A trilobite has mobility and eyes needs some self awareness to be able to navigate around a rock, et cetera.

Yet again I saw a smelly drunken guy today who had probably not showered for at least a few weeks... and I (perhaps arrogantly) thought I was at least a few levels more conscious than he, and then after munching on a stone I was vividly conscious a level up again, having several insights unto myself.

Maybe conscious is just a way to say aware.

Seems that if consciousness is awareness then it could be quantified by someone more conscious than me.

As difficult as intelligence is to measure and quantify, I can't imagine trying to quantify sentience.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27455057 - 09/03/21 03:44 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
interesting that you say "aware",
I used to agree with that, 'that awareness is a measure of consciousness', but have come to consider that consciousness or being conscious is the potential of awareness, of sensation, of perception and thought.





Differences in consciousness, awareness, and sentience could perhaps be deep enough subjects to be the topic of an entire thread.

A bee operates on a serotonin-based nervous system. It must feel like something to be a bee. Is a bee more conscious than a squirrel, and is a squirrel more conscious than a chimpanzee, and are we more conscious than a chimpanzee? Are some humans more conscious than others while awake? I would say if consciousness is a function of neural connections in the brain (as related to sensory input, perception, and memory via repetition), then a bee would have fewer neural connections, less perception, and less memory.

So consciousness could, theoretically, be quantified.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455064 - 09/03/21 03:51 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe a device someday could objectively quantify consciousness by scaning the brain to count the active neural connections that are participating in sensory input, perception, and memory.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455065 - 09/03/21 03:52 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Eureka!


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog]
    #27455398 - 09/03/21 09:40 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
.    There are also a number of odd psychological conditions where dissociations of various sorts occur, which may raise more interesting questions.





Yeah I suppose consciousness can vary wildly in one mind from moment to moment. That makes sense.

So interesting that so many varied medical conditions can mess with the human neural operating system ("Sense_of_self.exe"?) like someone going into the registry editor of a computer and messing with things. Maybe that's a pretty bad analogy.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog]
    #27456811 - 09/05/21 08:21 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

measuring spike formation rates at pcn dendrites will indicate ability to form memory (from alzheimers or low IQ to genius).





So THAT is my problem!

Fascinating stuff. Fascinating indeed.


Quote:

laughingdog said:
The post about Bees was by Moses_Davidson on 09/03/21 05:44, & not my self.





Perhaps RGV confused us while answering several different questions. I don't think the bee itself was the problem, but the multitude of subjects in this thread which led to his pcn dendrites being unable to form spikes fast enough to keep them all straight.

SO... my short term memory is absolute crrrrrap, and getting worse with age, evidently due to being unable to form dendrite spikes as easily as when I was younger.

My "takehome" from Consciousness 101 is that I should probably try to somehow use this information to raise my quantifiable consciousness and increase my ability to form those dendrite spikes.

I am presently microdosing, taking lion's mane, ginko biloba, coconut oil (medium chain triglycerides used on formation of said spiky dendrites)... what can be done to improve all of this function? Granted I probably need more sleep and less stress.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27457930 - 09/06/21 06:22 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Are you sure your short term memory is failing? ...

usually short term memory goes last.

eat sardines is my advice on all things, in extra virgin olive oil if at all possible, and skip the apple pie except on birthdays and high holidays that permit it.
.




Well, a lot of long term memories are gone as well but those aren't usually as relevant. Most of what I seem to be experiencing now is a slowness to form short term memories. I don't think it's the case that they are forming and being lost, but that they aren't forming at all. If I don't write it down, or leave it in a familiar place where I will find it, much of the time it's gone.

I just read a little on sardines and anchovies for brain health. Less bioaccumulation of toxins and just as much Omega 3. I shall buy some today. Thank you.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27457936 - 09/06/21 06:37 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

GINKO BILOBA GIVEAWAY

Although this is not the marketplace thread, I wanted to post this off-topic comment here first, to benefit those of you who care about brain health. Seems if I post "free" in the marketplace a lot of people will take it just because it is free, whether or not they are interested in brain supplements. Plus its discriminational preference for people who like to talk about consciousness. This is my first harvest and I have more than enough to share.

Please PM me a privnote with your address and I will mail you fresh bi-lobial ginko leaves. If you want more than I can stuff in a Fedex-sized envelope you can send me some money for shipping and have as much as you want. The fruit is the part with toxins, however the leaves are safe for grinding or extraction with vodka in the blender. I will be harvesting today.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27459012 - 09/07/21 08:52 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
hahaha,
I think you don't have short term memory loss, you could have trouble making new memory, but maybe just have other things distracting you.





Well, if I don't have short term memory loss then my troubles could be environmental. Now that I did patch things up with the wife, and she is small and cute, but that woman snores like she is calling the hogs. Maybe my memory problems have just been due to lower quality (and fewer hours of) sleep. So therefore,... wait, what was I saying?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27459778 - 09/07/21 08:48 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
take comfort that many families now include a domestic pig or two




https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/obesity-rates-continue-to-rise-among-adults-in-the-us.html


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27460806 - 09/08/21 06:08 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

LOL yeah I knew what you meant.

Hey check out this video on brain scans. It shows brain activity in a variety of people with different diagnoses.



--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27460822 - 09/08/21 06:19 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

And this one is pretty good too. Same guy:



--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27461041 - 09/08/21 09:28 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

He recommends taking ginko biloba and showed a lot of brain scans of people that take it and those who don't. But alas, evidently that is in a different video. He has a regimen of healthy foods and activities that are supposed to be good for brain health. I'm going to look into it more and try it out. (I am, ahem, somewhat thrifty and economical and will probably not buy his books!)

Incidentally, the wife did sleep in the other room last night and I did get better sleep, and was able to think much more clearly and remember basic things I was doing throughout the day. Probably going to have to have a tough talk with her.

I wouldn't mind having a miniature pig if I could get a miniature chicken and a miniature goat to go with them and complete the set. Then they could walk around together in my back yard.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27461744 - 09/09/21 12:16 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

In the video, he shows a lot of interesting brain scans. Examples that allow one to visualize how neural activity is affected by conditions such as Alzheimers, mild brain injuries, stroke, brain cysts, smoke inhalation, obesity, and very bad snoring, versus the neural activity of a healthy brain.

He discussed various ways that personality is affected by these conditions. I thought it seemed relevant to a discussion on the mechanisms of consciousness because one's consciousness is completely dependent upon the brain's health, as an organ made of tissue.

I find it fascinating that someone can be mean and violent due to a brain cyst. As a logical person, I tend to think that my temperment is a result of my decisions, and may have at least something to do with my desire to do good. Its an odd, uneasy feeling to think that I could be a violent person if I had a brain cyst in the right spot.

Its hard to comprehend that my consciousness and personality, my perception of the whole world,... my entire universe... all of these are so utterly dependent upon that small space between my ears.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27462721 - 09/10/21 07:30 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

Without subjecting myself to the video,...




LOL OK. Well how about this'n



--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27462728 - 09/10/21 07:42 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
So the dependence on the brain as a percentage based on the spirituality of the person..

The difference between a materialistic mindset which relies on brainchemistry to think and act..

Vs the spiritual person who relies more on abstract spirit and freewill is less dependant on biological solutions.. but makes them work for him/her.




But if even you have a brain cyst, it can cause severe changes to your personality, despite your spiritual intentions. Certain brain changes can cause you to be very irritable, and even explosive.

So your spirit and your brain can be at odds. You can have a gentle spirit trapped in a very aggressive and irritably explosive brain, and it seems that the brain wins.

Some would say this is simply because there is nothing spiritual, only physical.

I believe that we are 100% physical, but I believe in a spiritual resurrection after death, in a new body, in different dimension. However, any talk about whether there is or is not a resurrection after death in a new dimension is (like talk of what caused the big bang) inherently religious (id est, not scientific) because it cannot be tested in repeatable experiments.

But that disclaimer being said, I think the reason it seems that a brain injury can always change mood and always trump a person's spiritual intent is because everything we are experiencing, thinking, and feeling is 100% physical... and 100% spiritual.

In the same way that a thing that grows in the grass can be 100% alive, 100% good, and 100% illegal.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


Edited by Moses_Davidson (09/10/21 07:50 AM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27463925 - 09/11/21 09:04 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
consciousness is too rapid and subtle to be explained soley by neurological and biochemical processes.

have a body is energetically demanding.  what's the body's role in consciousness?  otherwise, why have a body at all?

human consciousness is an integral part of the human body's self-regulation.




I agree that consciousness is a part of the body's self-regulation. Many animals that lack brains can function well without them, but a brain in general is a wonderful accessory. A consciousness, even more so!

If we extracted a human brain from the body, and suspended it with a sort of agar-like solution coursing through it for oxygen and nourishment, in such a way that it could thrive and grow,... without a doubt that conscious person would go completely bonkers insane. A human can't even stay sane in solitary confinement. I can't imagine consciousness without a body. I think the body encompasses "the senses" but there are also non-cerebral brain-like clusters of neurons governing our digestive systems and many other systems. So, without a doubt, the body is a central part of consciousness.

Even still, can't the body be explained by neurological and biochemical processes?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27463938 - 09/11/21 09:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

"The body" is inherent and in RGV's chart as "the senses"... which are an integral part of consciousness.

To an extent, its the "my father's oldsmobile" paradox. You can remove one part of the car, and it is still the same car. You can remove another part of the car, and it is the same car. Yada yada yada. But at what point does it cease to be the same car? We can dismember a person, until they are a brain floating in some agar-fluid... but at some point they have no senses at all. If the senses are part of the consciousness, at what point in the dismemberment process does it cease to be consciousness?

If I am asleep, I am not conscious because I am not aware of my surroundings. Can I be conscious, then, without my body?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #27465105 - 09/12/21 07:27 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

To say anything is out of body is inherently anti-evolution.





More specifically, to say anything is (or is not) out of body is beyond the scope of science.

A statement that nothing exists out of the body (or something exists outside of the body) is inherently a religious statement because it cannot be supported by testable or repeatable experiments.

The only truly scientific answer to that question is: "science cannot yet tell us this." Anything beyond that is purely rhetorical at best.

I defy anyone to provide an explanation of what caused the big bang that does not require blind faith to believe it. Religious conjecture of the nature of the soul and the origin of man is the oldest religious subject of all.

We hold many scientific beliefs, but having those scientific beliefs does not make our unscientific (religious/untestable) beliefs somehow also scientific as well.

But it's OK to have beliefs that are beyond what science can tell us today. Even the most purely scientific among us have some untestable beliefs regarding religious topics. I respect your faith in your own beliefs and/or disbeliefs.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27465176 - 09/12/21 08:27 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
for things like the big bang, I find I am stretching my abilities to look into a lens that has altered rules of light and dimensional continuity or time. It's humbling and invigorating.

as for out of body experiencing, or levitation, or prescience, I am only at the level of guessing how the cards might cut in a game of cribbage with my wife, and that context is amazingly fun, but not portentous, or significant.

That said, i concur with what sudly said with regard to energy and consciousness...




I don't know if I agree with you and Sudly or not. I'd have to say I'm somewhat agnostic on the subject of the human soul.

From a religious historical perspective, there was a rather large portion of the Rabbinical sages that did NOT believe in a soul or any form of eternal life at all. But, the other half of them believed that there would be a resurrection of the body, in another dimension. Modern Judiasm (and Christianity as well) embraced the resurrection. There is a lot of talk about the resurrection in the Bible... and the word for "spirit" in Greek (pneuma) means breath (or wind) in most contexts.

So it is feasible to me to believe that the spirit of a person is that breath of life of a person, and the resurrection is the bodily resurrection of that life and of that body, in another dimension... and that there could be nothing beyond our physical bodies in this dimension/universe.

Or maybe there is a ghost-like spirit within us. I've thought on this a lot, and have talked with many theologians on the subject. I still don't have enough information to make a confident decision on the subject.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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