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Invisibleredgreenvines
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RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics * 5
    #27446374 - 08/28/21 01:23 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I often get into little discussions with people about what I think consciousness is or is not, and how the brain and the mind are one thing, and how sensation is input and perception is everything else, and how memory engrams are constantly being formed as sets of all the activated Primary Cortical Neurons which are complete combinations of Sensation and Perception (everything else), that become more cohesive accessible associative memories through repetition.

Accordingly I made up the chart below which arranges the non-exclusive lists of ideas in a way that can work for a lifetime providing animal or human consciousness.



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Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 08:37 PM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27447462 - 08/29/21 07:22 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

smaller file



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #27448695 - 08/29/21 08:41 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

that's the part that you have to provide yourself - actually there is an homunculus aspect to sensation and motor neurons in the cerebral cortex, but no internal homunculus that makes decisions, or expresses will.

all of what happens in the brain is either sensation or  associative perceptive reflexes or chain of such perceptive reflexes which in turn affect the mental contents to which further reflexes happen.


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Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 08:46 PM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27449012 - 08/30/21 06:15 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly true, however the radiation of fibres to the cortex involves pairs of axons, because each axon going 'up' to a primary cortical neuron also has a sister one going back 'down' to the same thalamic neuron from the excited PCN - this provides feedback(A).

The hypothalamus and other basal ganglia enable selective suppression controls, which I marked in red (B)  in the diagram. (these are an optional associative response class in the order of perceptions.) without this we would not be able to focus.

My chart is about the key functions in consciousness, and is only somewhat anatomical.

Central to it all is the feedback (A) between thalamic neurons and primary cortical neurons. except where inhibited by the example you mentioned (B), this pumps energy to the cortex generating localized ephaptic fields around the PCN's, which rhythmically spread as waves to intersect, creating interference peaks that excite multi-branched pyramidal cells (C) that link together all the currently pumping PCN's into an engram that can later be recalled in the perception process.

Anatomically speaking, most of the white matter in the brain is comprised of the widely reaching linkage axon branches of pyramidal neurons, most of the rest is largely the feedback wiring between thalamus and cortex (A).


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27449538 - 08/30/21 01:23 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subthalamic_nucleus
this article has an interesting illustration with red arrows referring to inhibitory GABAergic pathways.

finding the suppression effectors is something we do as babies, while also finding our other abilities, like moving hands, biting, swallowing, turning our heads.

the wiring exists, but has to be latched into learned habits by repetition (especially in different contexts which increase the accessibility of the memory engram).

Initially is is like restlessness, and pretty random, but once we get the hang of it, we begin to think like people, with shifting awareness, beginning with the kicking in the womb.


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Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 10:13 PM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #27450109 - 08/30/21 08:48 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Observation happens first then we judge what we see.. That judgement is our perception..

Talk about filter. As in things are filtered in our judgement.



way faster than that
the vision event occurs in the eye
then thalamo-cortical feedback starts and the image event is registering in the cortex
then perception begins
and if not crowded out by anything else,
associations, being the perception, unfold; and as one associated thing can lead to another, some perceptions are ideas or words or complete personalities, whatever - it is a mental reflex.

judgment is an arbitrary sequence from an arbitrary attitude, that is entirely an accumulation of associations. it could happen or not. it could be your reflex or not.

the filtering you are writing about is also an arbitrary associative perception sequence/reflex.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #27450121 - 08/30/21 08:57 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Things filtered through the observer perhaps?

That observation is the filter itself..

I wonder if there are any other filters in the brain,body chemical system and the mind?



this is a interesting angle on short term memory, which could be called an observer, since it hangs around as excess reactivity for 5 minutes, but it is not actually conscious; it was the active set of primary cortical neurons, but has stopped feedback and generating fields, but it is still a set of slightly excited neurons that hyper react when electrified by a pyramidal axon branchlet.
and if it reacts it restarts the ephapsis.
it's a potential self, that winds up hogging the stage, because it was relevant. It soon is upstaged by the next significantly relevant perception group.

no judgment at all, it's reflex.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27450451 - 08/31/21 05:00 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Wow but I think we need to draw a line between reactions that you could not have helped vs actually making choices with determined effects..



why do you think there could be a difference?
reactions are reactions, but reactions made while pausing and taking time to feel your way, do seem to be more "deliberate" or "will-like", but what they really are is more democratically derived from more moments of being your self (selves) while facing the need to select a course of action.

this diagram has no place for  ego, no place for will, no need of subconscious, just the process of consciousness.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27451338 - 08/31/21 06:14 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

thank you for trying, sorry it does not have meaning for you, did you study biology?
this chart requires some understanding of neuron types and the general design of the nervous system which is not depicted anatomically.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27451393 - 08/31/21 06:49 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:...
.  So in summary, it seems to me that consciousness is not a unified process, that is equally distributed, so to speak, but is a complex of functions and narratives, that functions like the eye of a hurricane, to organize an organism, in a way that promotes survival, but does not really have any inherent reality, anymore than an 'I' does. But a sense of self is projected, just like an illusory avatar, to allow the game to have direction, for a while.
.  So it seems one could even say with some justification, that the function of consciousness, is to create the illusion, that a provisional self, is both (more) conscious, and more substantial than it is.




early in this comment (unquoted) you mention driving a car, writing letters then words, and watching a movie as well as this last bit about creating an illusion of a provisional self.

this list of learned routines and abilities could go on for ten thousand pages and still not be exhausted.

I do not approach the question of consciousness by looking for purpose, but by looking at what is happening in the mind, and in the brain.

as to consciousness itself, I think of it as the crucible in which sensation blends with perception and memory formation into one process in one tissue.

whether you are aware that you are driving, or you are driving and thinking of other things or involved in a conversation with a passenger, all are activities that can co-exist in your consciousness while you manage the responsibility of piloting the vehicle which you have become accustomed to doing with ease.

reading this is something you do with ease.

to learn to read one goes through the process of discovering the sounds of letters, the shapes of letters, how they combine to make words, how to form them and how to recognize them at different sizes, fonts, script, and eventually reading books and out loud, etc.

each thing that is learned involves memory, not the awareness of memory specifically, but the fact that it is there and has associated other mental objects with  it.

in the simplest case the letter A is associated with the classroom where it was learned and later practised, it is associated with the sound, it makes and later with lists of A-words.

by the time you are very old at maybe 100 years of age, your associations with the letter A number in the billions.

the situation that you are in governs how you perceive the letter A, and what you are currently engaged in also affects the set of associations that are perceived or pulled out of memory into the mix that is consciousness.

consciousness is both how the associations are formed, and how they are perceived as well as the continuous sensory feed from the world and the currently resonating mental objects that have been forming and their imprint in short term memory as well.

In the way I am looking at things, all learned things (basically any memory that has formed - i.e. engrams) become revived in consciousness in the process of perception, which evokes synthetic mental objects that are
a) most salient to the circumstances being sensed through the body.
b) most consistent to the other mental forms currently resonating in mind.
c) connected in any way with what is in short term memory (mental contents from the last 5 minutes.

Perception can be brief and simple, an idea, or a word, or  sequenced, like a poem a song or full body reactions, like driving a car. Perceptions are the Output of the cerebral cortex.

I know it seems odd to call a complex action or performance a perception, but it is more realistically an orchestration of many perceptions in a living flux of many impressions.

That is the granularity that I use when I look at the mind. and when I say that to the mind, there is hardly any difference between sensation, memory or perception.

When you discuss the model of self towards the end of your comment, you are getting at some fairly complex mental object construction. I believe we all do play with these mental dolls that we make of ourselves and of others, and sometimes do not distinguish between how that play goes in our minds and what is really happening on the planet surface.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #27451826 - 09/01/21 05:52 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Do you really think that toddlers have mastered the art of engaging with their suppression effector?

The contextual inhibitions that empower us to be in control of the situations we find ourselves in.



Please remove the trump face, sudly, it is not constructive.

as to your comment,
a newborn can be observed exploring how it feels to move his hands before his face, with many random minor facial expressions. here he lays the groundwork of manual dexterity, raw familiarization of what natural moves exist.
discovering  how one's attention can be shifted is the same thing, a random process of familiarity.
mastery, however, is relative, undefinable, a matter for Olympic judges to discern perhaps.

Quote:

sudly said:
I'm a fan of this analogy:thumbup:

Quote:

So in summary, it seems to me that consciousness is not a unified process, that is equally distributed, so to speak, but is a complex of functions and narratives, that functions like the eye of a hurricane, to organize an organism, in a way that promotes survival,







in truth there are many different worlds of input and output, of sensation and perception, but in the brain tissues they are reduced to neuron activations that occur simultaneously allowing "what happens together to be wired together".

this association process is key to memory formation and perception that combine with sensation to form consciousness.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #27452366 - 09/01/21 02:21 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I have no conclusion, was I supposed to have a conclusion?

Quote:

About AI:
ai can be like a peripheral or pattern input vector to a conscious substrate, but it in itself, as currently engineered, is not conscious, it is a process running on a machine that is designed for high resolution memory, and low resolution life experience, and occasionally real world feedback and labor.

consciousness is a high resolution life experience blended with a cornucopia of low resolution memory.

human consciousness also includes a great deal of virtual experiencing, in imagination, cogitation, art creation, culture, and dreams.




My aim here, is to capture the essence of my delinquency in language.

maybe it is the hard question, the one about qualia,
maybe that is what I am speaking to,
maybe it is the shaman's bluff that I am speaking to?

I aim to use some of the language of psychology that pertains to consciousness with consistency, and with a high degree of biological plausibility.

In my opinion, much of the language of Freud and of psychology is great, but a good deal of it is not used consistently or in a way that clarifies issues.

Of course you could say that temperament is the question,
my temperament is not happy when the reason for any thing is god or the sub-conscious or astrology. I like to see how things connect, how they are articulated and move together.

for some other temperament that may be of no importance, they prefer the magic words and question no further, inshalla, if god wills...


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27452609 - 09/01/21 05:51 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I am not sure exactly why you bring up these disparate concepts.

1) I have not been very interested in the Turing test, although I think Mr. Turing was an amazing cryptographer, genius mathematician, and unusual person.
In a vaguely related enterprise, I developed a conversational multimedia robot in the ‘90’s which had a stack of recently relevant reaction contexts which partly resembles short term memory, The project had an amusing quality – aside from being able to react to questions asked by voice (prerecorded video actors) in a way that was relevant in the recent past as well as the current interaction, it had a series of error recovery behaviors as well. It was best for telling you the time, and being a goof.
The system worked but was under funded and never went to market. Kind of like Alexa before the internet but also like a multimedia version of Eliza (#3).

2) Theory of mind is an interesting appellation for natural development of empathy and this is something that animals also exhibit.  This is not something that I feel is crucial in the understanding of what makes consciousness happen but it is a natural thing in life between creatures - which I am not focusing on here, while the name of it "theory of mind" pertains to what I am doing - the use of these words is not the same as what I am involved in.

theory of mind is more properly an effort to understand how individuals perceive other individuals. In my opinion the name is too dramatic, and kind of wrong.


3) Elisa the computer therapist
is the first program I ever studied in 1981 – it is just a key-word decision tree response automation. trivial.

4) the mirror test is an amusing thing, that may not be an important indicator of anything except to some people and some animals – we already know that dolphins and other animals who play with reflections, or use them in life, have intelligence, but so do the millions of birds that crash into the interrupted skies that they see reflected in skyscraper windows.

5) 'Agency' is an abstract notion that I think psychologists should discuss among themselves as long as they like.

6) "Can a Self-Propelled Box Have a Goal? Psychological Reasoning in 5-Month-Old Infants"
I agree that infants engage in physical reasoning: They attempt to predict and interpret the outcomes of physical events, and they love to explore how they also can affect those outcomes.

7) interface theory of consciousness?
I think that this is garbled but deals with the same questions I am dealing with in my effort to show that consciousness is the mashup of sensation + memory formation + perception, and that memory formation is a product of consciousness and sensation and perception.

The essence of what I am talking about is that facets of experience are being projected in sequences of pulses at the cerebral cortex from the thalamus,
this creates a wave energy movie of life that stimulates the hooking together of all activated cortical neurons in that frame of the movie.
When some of the same facets are later projected to the same set of neurons the rest of the  memory of the previous event is brought back to the conscious stream.

The wave activity in the cerebral cortex represents our body state and our mental contents as a continuously changing stream of consciousness.

I am interested in seeing how the tissues do that and the chart pretty much explains the questions I have about mind and consciousness, learning, memory, behavior etc.

Without the resonating fields [projected by the thalamus] (and the pyramidal neuron linkage of active cortical neurons) there could be no memory formation, without the memory there could be no perception, and without sensation and memory there would be nothing to perceive and nothing to perceive it as.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog]
    #27452703 - 09/01/21 07:38 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I pretty much include all animals as creatures with some form of consciousness, and I look for evidence of structures that produce the same things as thalamus and cerebral cortex (to set up the field pattern and make them pulse a bit) and white matter (pyramidal neural branches) in the brain area to react to the pattern and join up the active neurons into an engram.
other arrangements might also work but this arrangement supports memory formation, some sensory inputs, and perception to connect the input to an output that can be automatic or learned.

my discussion about consciousness does not include rocks, air or vacuum, for now, and it is not much altered due to new questions about the universe time and gravity.

we do not know more than we do know, but it is a huge mistake to consider that all that we do not yet know is really the same thing. well it is similar in that we do not know it, but it is not a related question, consciousness is not a challenge to matter and energy, it is a system that rests on top of that fabric, like photosynthesis which requires chloroplasts, a significant biological structure.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #27453143 - 09/02/21 04:31 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
That's the thing though, we develop these processes over our lifetime and appear to have an almost exponential potential for utilising these internal processes.

We start off learning how to not fowl ourselves as toddlers, and by the time we're adults were capable of self control to the factor of developing a muscular physique or undertaking a PhD.

From my understanding there are inhibitory and excitory interferences central to activity from the hypothalamus.

Quote:

GABA is the primary inhibitory transmitter of the adult hypothalamus




Quote:

Also known as corticotropin-releasing factor, or CRH/CRF for short. CRH acts as a hormone and neurotransmitter and is released from the hypothalamus during the stress response.




Where would the balancing act of these two 'sub-systems' play a role?

Or, how do they fit?



great question!!!

as indicated, when a neuron from the thalamus sends a signal to a neuron in the cortex the cortical neuron sends the pulse right back (establishing a short series of feedback) while making an electrical field pulse in the cortical tissue around the cortical neuron. if the thalamus is suppressed the cortical neuron will not make the field nor send any signal back. Thus the field effect from the neuron is squelched and its effect on interference is stopped, as are the chances it will cause a pyramidal cell to fire, which would have initiated related associations (down stream perception).

the role GABA suppression neurons play is to suppress thalamic activity in a set of neurons eg. to suppress all hearing, or just to suppress a frequency range so you can hear speech better at a bar (that is if you have good hearing in the first place) or to suppress sensation from your body while playing a video game, or to suppress thoughts of catastrophe while driving in a hair pin turn.

it is finer control than turning off an entire sense, but not finer than turning off individual fingers of the hand, but internally you get to turn off traffic going to various lobes, and this can affect abstract thought, permitting you to think differently from the same premises, from the same perceptions yet with some suppressed allowing other feeds to expand their influence on consciousness.

suppression can be coordinated with timing in a sequence of mental or physical activity as athletes learn skills - or developers learn new programming languages etc. Also we use it to help focus on what we are doing a million times each day.

often we suppress input from parts of our body as a side effect of paying attention to some small detail while reading, driving, talking etc. This is probably because thinking is developed as an offshoot of sensory perception, and many mental forms still associate with body parts as well as other more abstract notions.

learning to suspend suppression is one of the main purposes of yoga body scans, because we are so suppressive normally that we tend to disconnect from our bodies or tense them up in strange ways to squeeze more precision in our thinking. It looks funny but it is true. weird.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27453236 - 09/02/21 06:40 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
So sane people are on the level and insane people are not?



this makes sense, but what can you do about it, really.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27453949 - 09/02/21 06:11 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

what about consent?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27454413 - 09/03/21 04:42 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

interesting that you say "aware",
I used to agree with that, 'that awareness is a measure of consciousness', but have come to consider that consciousness or being conscious is the potential of awareness, of sensation, of perception and thought.

being conscious engenders the capacity of bearing those and other mental forms, and, in bearing them, also enduring them, and in learning to bear them well, maybe with some dignity.

co-incident with buddhism consciousness is formless in itself, though the body provides the substrate of it through the brain and living integration.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455516 - 09/04/21 03:38 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Maybe a device someday could objectively quantify consciousness by scaning the brain to count the active neural connections that are participating in sensory input, perception, and memory.



counting the active primary cortical neurons will tell you how much of consciousness is involved in the current moment - perception (reactivated memory engrams) and sensation.

counting the primary cortical neurons (pcn) that are not active but still have some metabolites  from activity will indicate how much short term memory or contextual continuity the consciousness has behind it.

measuring the duration of the loops between thalamus and cortex will tell how emotional or stoned someone is but we all know that can vary in range from positive to negative to transcendent (smooth pattern shifts and harmonies probably indicate happy experience, intense shifts and body zone anxiety can already suggest difficult moods).

measuring spike formation rates at pcn dendrites will indicate ability to form memory (from alzheimers or low IQ to genius).

so a lot could be measured to different diagnostic value - but different than current level equipment needs to be developed.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27455517 - 09/04/21 03:40 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
What is the nature of curiosity in consciousness?

Can we make a statement that people are curious about different things?

So therefore following our curiosity could be an honest seat of emotion.



curiosity or interest is related to attention span which is a combination of short term memory and general intelligence


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