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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27448533 - 08/29/21 06:22 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Kinda seems like a homunculus map to me.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27448942 - 08/30/21 03:37 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)



Quote:

The thalamocortical neurons receive sensory or motor information from the rest of the body and present selected information via nerve fibres (thalamocortical radiations) to the cerebral cortex

It now appears certain that the hypothalamus influences the cerebral cortex through the intermediary of certain principal nuclei of the thalamus which project on to focal areas of the cortex

https://www.google.com/search?q=cerebral+cortex+hypothalamus&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU906AU907&oq=cerebral+cortex+to+hyp&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i22i30l4.4695j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

From the study, it is found that the hypothalamus is the key area for the integration of forebrain control of autonomic and endocrine function with ongoing behaviour and emotional state.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079612300260056





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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27451742 - 09/01/21 02:58 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I'm a fan of this analogy:thumbup:

Quote:

So in summary, it seems to me that consciousness is not a unified process, that is equally distributed, so to speak, but is a complex of functions and narratives, that functions like the eye of a hurricane, to organize an organism, in a way that promotes survival,




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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27451743 - 09/01/21 03:05 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Do you really think that toddlers have mastered the art of engaging with their suppression effector?

The contextual inhibitions that empower us to be in control of the situations we find ourselves in.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27453072 - 09/02/21 02:24 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

That's the thing though, we develop these processes over our lifetime and appear to have an almost exponential potential for utilising these internal processes.

We start off learning how to not fowl ourselves as toddlers, and by the time we're adults were capable of self control to the factor of developing a muscular physique or undertaking a PhD.

From my understanding there are inhibitory and excitory interferences central to activity from the hypothalamus.

Quote:

GABA is the primary inhibitory transmitter of the adult hypothalamus




Quote:

Also known as corticotropin-releasing factor, or CRH/CRF for short. CRH acts as a hormone and neurotransmitter and is released from the hypothalamus during the stress response.




Where would the balancing act of these two 'sub-systems' play a role?

Or, how do they fit?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog]
    #27453076 - 09/02/21 02:27 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

In as kind a way as I can say, instead of throwing spaghetti at the wall, maybe eating it and telling us about the flavours you enjoyed would make this a more admirable dining experience :cheers:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27456638 - 09/05/21 03:12 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said: the role GABA suppression neurons play is to suppress thalamic activity in a set of neurons eg. to suppress all hearing, or just to suppress a frequency range so you can hear speech better at a bar (that is if you have good hearing in the first place) or to suppress sensation from your body while playing a video game, or to suppress thoughts of catastrophe while driving in a hair pin turn.

it is finer control than turning off an entire sense, but not finer than turning off individual fingers of the hand, but internally you get to turn off traffic going to various lobes, and this can affect abstract thought, permitting you to think differently from the same premises, from the same perceptions yet with some suppressed allowing other feeds to expand their influence on consciousness.




And still, what of the excitatory channel?

Quote:

Also known as corticotropin-releasing factor, or CRH/CRF for short. CRH acts as a hormone and neurotransmitter and is released from the hypothalamus during the stress response.




Do GABA suppression neurons play a role in this too? Can they suppress the results of, or prevent the actions of CRH?

And if suppression is diverse in what it can suppress, what would be useful to suppress?

Can we get a list? Because perhaps thoughts of catastrophe is a good one to start with. imo.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27456650 - 09/05/21 03:42 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You said it yourself that there's a role to play for the hypothalamus in you're coup de grace,

Quote:

redgreenvines said The hypothalamus and other basal ganglia enable selective suppression controls, which I marked in red (B)  in the diagram. (these are an optional associative response class in the order of perceptions.) without this we would not be able to focus.




I haven't seen any mention of PVN, and I don't claim to have a great deal of knowledge about it, but it seems to me that if the hypothalamus is having an influence on the thalamus that it is of importance and should be more thoroughly uncovered.

Like where do the factors that the hypothalamus influences fit in to your model?

Quote:

The paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus (PVN) has emerged as one of the most important autonomic control centers in the brain, with neurons playing essential roles in controlling stress, metabolism, growth, reproduction, immune, and other more traditional autonomic functions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2682920/




1. This seems to suggest that GABA can regulate the stress response to some degree.

2. THDOC is demonstrated to decrease the firing rate of CRH neurons, which I find interesting. I don't know much about THDOC yet but it has peaked my interest.

3. GABA again is suggested to play a role in the inhibition of CRH neurons.

4. Here it's suggested the role of GABA to inhibit the stress response is reversed after the stress response because of a depolarizing shift. 

Quote:

These data are consistent with previous findings demonstrating changes in GABAAR δ subunit expression in parvocellular neurons in the PVN following stress, implicating these receptors in the regulation of the stress response. In response to stress, THDOC and allopregnanolone are released at levels which can potently modulate GABAARs.

Under basal conditions, neurosteroids can exert a negative feedback onto the HPA axis, decreasing CRH and ACTH levels. 1. Recent data demonstrate a role for neurosteroid actions on GABAAR δ subunit-containing receptors on CRH neurons in the regulation of the HPA axis, and thus, production of stress hormones. 2. This study demonstrates a decrease in the firing rate of CRH neurons upon the addition of a low concentration of THDOC (10 nM) under basal conditions.

3. Further, the role of the GABAAR δ subunit in the neurosteroid regulation of CRH neurons was confirmed by demonstrating the loss of this regulation in mice lacking the GABAAR δ subunit (Gabrd−/− mice). Together, there is ample evidence that under normal conditions, there is a basal GABAergic inhibition of CRH neurons.

Interestingly, the effects of GABA on CRH neurons are dramatically altered following stress. Stress activates GABAergic neurons which project to the PVN, which would intuitively suggest inhibition of the HPA axis rather than activation. However, GABA agonists have been shown to increase stress-induced corticosterone levels and blocking production with finasteride has been shown to blunt the corticosterone response to stress.

However, due to the fact that both THDOC and allopregnanolone levels are elevated following stress, it isn't clear which of these neurosteroids are responsible for activation of the HPA axis. 4.The role of neurosteroids on GABAAR δ subunit-containing receptors in the activation of the HPA axis following stress, implicates excitatory actions of GABA in regulation of the HPA axis. Recent evidence suggests that there are deficits in GABAergic control of CRH neurons following stress due to a depolarizing shift in the reversal potential for chloride (Cl−).

The inhibitory effects of GABA require the maintenance of the Cl− gradient, which is primarily accomplished by the K+/Cl− co-transporter, KCC2, in the adult brain.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2012.00004/full




I thought it made sense that GABA played a role in inhibiting CRH neurons, but found it odd that this control or effect is lost after the stress response. It seems to me that GABA is more of a preventative than a cure but that's just :2cents:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27463743 - 09/11/21 03:41 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You want to over simplify the nervous system and replace it with the word 'energy' to avoid any substantive requirements. Great :thumbup:

Can you please quote your source for somatic recall. I don't see any suggestion of treatment somehow beyond the nervous system.

Quote:

While trauma is a nearly ubiquitous human experience, the manifestations of trauma-induced symptoms vary widely. When the nervous system has become “tuned” (Gellhorn, 1967a) by repeated exposure to long-term stress or trauma, the result is manifest in the symptoms of PTSS. Failure to resolve PTSS can evolve into multiple co-morbidities involving the cognitive, affective, immune, endocrine, muscular, and visceral systems. SE is designed to direct the attention of the person to internal sensations that facilitate biological completion of thwarted responses, thus leading to resolution of the trauma response and the creation of new interoceptive experiences of agency and mastery (Parvizi et al., 2013).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4316402/ ;




The nervous system IS complicated, intertwined and dynamic.

Quote:

Just because you aren't aware that tree leaves are made of gold, it doesn't mean they don't exist.




You've got to hear yourself sometimes.

It sounds like you're just discovering what an action potential is.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27464757 - 09/11/21 09:41 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
how would you articulate the differences between consciousness and energy?




I wouldn't, I'd just define energy and the pathways it travels. You can say energy, but alone it means nothing. E.g. do you know what different forms of energy there are?

Which form would you refer to in regard to humans etc?

Where does evolution stop and out of body begin?

To say anything is out of body is inherently anti-evolution.

I find it degrading to suggest we're detached from nature, and not a part of it.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27466132 - 09/12/21 09:33 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You can make the claim something to do with human beings is out of body if you secede a full view of evolution.

A statement that says, in regard to human beings, out of body is not in sync with evolutionary ideals; is fine.

Such has already been observed.

Interpret it how you will, we have proven and observed that evolution is real.

You have not clearly asked a question in your first 3 paragraphs.

The difference between the origin of the universe and the origin of the diversity of life (evolution), is that we have already succinctly proven and observed evolution.

Again, interpret it how you will, we did evolve and if you want to claim something out of body, I think it's important to point out where you believe evolution stopped.

You can have whatever belief you want, and I can respect an individual without respecting their idea.


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Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27466377 - 09/13/21 02:35 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

If pain or reflexes are not a part of your consciousness model, I don't think it would reflect my experience, but it's still an interesting insight.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27466941 - 09/13/21 02:58 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Evolution has literally been observed..

If a theory is not a scientific proof, what is a scientific proof and/or do they even exist?

Again, I think people can claim something out of body if they secede a full view in evolution.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27467166 - 09/13/21 06:09 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Evolution has literally been observed..

If a theory is not a scientific proof, what is a scientific proof and/or do they even exist?

Again, I think people can claim something out of body if they secede a full view in evolution.



I do not understand what you are talking about, probably you have been confused by the alienthatategod.
like talking with a random word generator




I'm just saying, if anyone should mention out of body, that mention is out of the scope of evolution, and to have the view that there is out of body, is anti-evolution, something that suggests evolution stopped at one point in humans, and out of body took over.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27467182 - 09/13/21 06:17 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said: Talk about the human soul (an eternal consciousness) as being 100% purely physical versus existing apart from the human body should not be a scary or potentially offensive topic for anyone. Faith (any faith) and science can go hand-in-hand quite well, as long as one does not hold to a scientific belief (such as the old "steady state universe" theory or the "brontosaurus") religiously.




You can claim anything is out of body if you don't believe we evolved.

Is magnetism physical? I believe so.

If that's what you consider out of body sure, but beyond the natural, you are leaving sense behind.

What do you mean by existing apart from the human body? Because if you're talking about some interdimensional essence, that is frankly nonsensical.

And in some point in that view, we are detached from our evolutionary ancestry, and if that's you're view I'd appreciate it if you specified where you think we detached from our evolutionary history.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27467187 - 09/13/21 06:19 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

There is evidence of evolution because evidence has literally been observed.

Etc. Lenski E.coli.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27467538 - 09/14/21 12:36 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

There's a probability that the Sun will rise tomorrow, and there's a probability that from hence we came was evolution.

All I'm more or less asking is, if 'out of body' evolved, or is mystical.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27468577 - 09/14/21 07:20 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

If consciousness evolved, your model makes a lot more sense imo.

I like how you've put memory formation into context, I do think this below quote of yours really speaks too!

Quote:

redgreenvines said: without the hypothalamus providing suppression at the feedback loop in the thalamus, paying attention to one thing over another would be impossible (gabanergic neural circuit suppression at this point is known - My addition to this is to assert hypothetically that the hypothalamus is driven by the cortex in the same way that skeletal muscles are controlled, and we learn to focus attention in the same way that we learn to manipulate our fingers).




Your model of consciousness seems to me like a model of a black hole, it's not directly modeling consciousness but is infering it's there, it's just that extra hypothesis of hypolothalamic interference that intrigues me so!


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #27469729 - 09/15/21 06:45 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds to me like you're suggesting the acquisition of tool use is akin to mysticism.

Adding on or going beyond those natural instincts.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27469744 - 09/15/21 06:55 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

If you think it's a good tactic to throw in technically valid arguments like that of the probability the Sun does not rise tomorrow then you do you.

Their is such thing as neutrality bias though.

Quote:

False balance, also bothsidesism, is a media bias in which journalists present an issue as being more balanced between opposing viewpoints than the evidence supports. Journalists may present evidence and arguments out of proportion to the actual evidence for each side, or may omit information that would establish one side's claims as baseless. False balance has been cited as a cause of misinformation.

Exaggerated portrayal of false balance in science journalism

False balance is a bias, which usually stems from an attempt to avoid bias, and gives unsupported or dubious positions an illusion of respectability. It creates a public perception that some issues are scientifically contentious, though in reality they aren't, therefore creating doubt about the scientific state of research, and can be exploited by interest groups such as corporations like the fossil fuel industry or the tobacco industry, or ideologically motivated activists such as vaccination opponents or creationists.






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