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Offline0t0lerance
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Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis??
    #27430446 - 08/16/21 03:04 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

So I was watching thks video:


And there paul is talking about Lion's mane and how the mycelium is the stuff that actually promotes neurogenesis.. not the fruiting body. Am I interpreting this correctly? Of misunderstanding it?

I was planning to make fruiting blocks.. purchases the hardwoord pellets.. soyhulls for way to much money.. and waiting for the presto to arrive. So I should do use the fruitingblocks for reishi instead or what? grow some thick myceliumlayer and tear that off the fruiting block?.. use a grain and make an extractio  of the mycelium? There is so much contradicting info I hope someone else can shed some light on this..


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InvisibleMinion
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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: 0t0lerance]
    #27430529 - 08/16/21 04:29 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Isn’t what he’s saying contradict the “Stoned Ape Theory” ?


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If you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, set it on fire.


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Offline0t0lerance
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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: Minion]
    #27431615 - 08/17/21 12:43 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Well that concerns at the cubensis, not lion's mane. But I checked the video a couple of times and indeed I read that consuming the fermented rice is apparently the way a normal person would get the benefits.. I guess dehydrate  grind it up into powder, capsulate that.

..so there is no point in fruiting the lion's mane.. ? Anyone else who would like to chime in?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: 0t0lerance] * 2
    #27432707 - 08/18/21 06:03 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I don't trust anything Paul says when it comes to selling his own products.  I've read a few independent studies that have me pretty convinced that the guys a born again capitalist and will make up whatever shit to get you to buy what he's selling.

For example, his myceliated grains, in independent lab tests, are mostly grain starch.

Which isn't to say that supplements from mycelium can't be good.  Just that Paul grows his on rice, not agar, so what you're mostly buying is rice.

If you want Lion's Mane as a supplement, extractions from fruit bodies are fine.  There's a few companies that sell stuff that's independently verified.  I get mine through RealMushrooms but I pay a bit more for the lab verification.  I know another poster orders stuff straight from China and pays a lot less than I do for it but sounds happy with the products.

You're not going to get much benefit out of just eating it btw as you'd have to eat a ton.  But it is delicious so I hope you keep growing it.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (08/18/21 06:04 AM)


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InvisibleReverendMyc

Registered: 03/29/19
Posts: 1,494
Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #27432991 - 08/18/21 11:27 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with paperbackwriter about how much of a salesman that Stamets has become. I find his manner sets off my skepticism reaction big time. However your post got me to doing some research and the recent studies that I found seem to back up his assertions about the mycelium vs fruiting body of lion's mane in particular on nerve growth factor.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21501201003735556
Quote:

Hericenones and erinacines are two natural products isolated from the fruiting body and mycelium of H. erinaceus, respectively, and most compounds exhibit the activity of promoting NGF synthesis. Hericenones and erinacines are low-molecular weight compounds that easily cross the blood–brain barrier. In a bioassay using mouse astroglial cell, the amounts of NGF secreted into the medium in the presence of erinacines were greater than for hericenones. There is debate as to whether hericenones are active components stimulating biosynthesis of NGF and the recent result have shown that hericenone C, D and E did not increase NGF mRNA expression at 10–100 μg/ml in 1321 N1 cells (Mori et al. 2008Mori, K, Obara, Y, Hirota, M, Azumi, Y, Kinnugasa, S, Inatomi, S and Nakahata, N. 2008. Nerve growth factor-inducing activity of Hericium erinaceus in 1321N1 human astrocytoma cells. Biol Pharm Bull., 9: 1727–1732.  [Google Scholar]). Therefore, erinacines have potential as medicines for degenerative neuronal disorders such as Alzheimer's disease and peripheral nerve regeneration. It has been reported that oral administration of erinacine A significantly increases the level of NGF in the rat locus coeruleus and hippocampus, but not in the cerebral cortex (Shimbo et al. 2005). However, the detailed mechanism by which erinacines induces NGF synthesis remains unknown. It is interesting that hericenones have been only reported in the fruiting bodies of H. erinaceus and erinacines only in the mycelia.




https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/31/9/31_9_1727/_article/-char/ja/

There may be studies that contradict these, but I did not find those. I did find plenty of mushroom supplement companies making claims about research for all sided of the controversy. But if they did include sources (seldom), the research often did not support what was claimed in the articles when digging further.

I know that I will be testing making a batch of capsules from myc now. I know that I have a couple of jars in cold storage right now.


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LAGM 2.024
Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any more
How to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice.
Don't Panic




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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #27432999 - 08/18/21 11:34 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I was tempted to do that same digging ReverendMyc so I appreciate the links.  And now I'm off on some more digging.  I'll report back of course if I learn anything interesting.

But my current question, assuming this bottle I've been paying $60 for is basically placebo, how do we make enough Lion's Mane mycelium to use as a supplement?  Soft agar?

*edit*

Here's a fun paper.
https://sci-hub.do/https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1521370

The quote is from the section on neuroprotective effects.  I didn't see anything specifically regarding what we call NGF.  But this is an eastern paper and they may be using different language than I'm familiar with.

"Neuroprotective effect of HEP on rat pheochromocytomanerve cells (PC12) has recently attracted considerable atten-tion. Enhancements in the growth and differentiation of PC12 cells have been viewed after the cells were cultured with an exo-polysaccharide from culture broth (Park et al.2002). Meanwhile, HEP from fruiting body exhibited restor-ation and regeneration capability on PC12 cells after injuryinduced by amyloid beta (Cheng et al.2016) and L-glutamicacid (Zhang et al.2016)."

So it looks like culture broth, fruit bodies, and mycelium all create slightly different structures of HEP, that all can act in completely novel ways.  Fruit bodies seem to show the most therapeutic value for anti-cancer properties.  I haven't come close to digesting this paper and I'm sorry if I'm coming off as though I have.

Just skimmed it a bit while high. 


Edited by paperbackwriter (08/18/21 11:57 AM)


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InvisibleReverendMyc

Registered: 03/29/19
Posts: 1,494
Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #27433035 - 08/18/21 12:11 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Hey PBW. I don't have the answers yet, and I am not even claiming that those supplements are ineffective. Stamets seems to be making that claim, but like you said, he has a motive for that narrative.

The articles I found did say that there is some NGF reaction from both parts, but that there was more from the myc side (erinacines). Part of the fruit (hericenone C, D and E) were found to have no increase NGF under very specific tests, but that is far from conclusive.

I agree that extracts do improve the "nutritional" density of the specific parts that are captured. So that alone could make up the difference in the two. Also the studies are based on isolates of the two chemicals, but I have not seen a quantitative comparison of what is actually available in either part. So while one of the two may be more effective in its pure form, the differences could be moot at the macro level of eating whole or dried and capsuled fruits or myc or even extracts.

This is why I am uncomfortable with absolute claims of this is better than that. Reading the research of others always leaves more questions to ask or experiments to do. I would love to be on the peer review board to be able to get responses to my questions. I love this board because it is basically a bunch of junior mad scientists doing constant peer review.


--------------------
LAGM 2.024
Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any more
How to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice.
Don't Panic




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Offline0t0lerance
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Registered: 05/01/21
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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #27435348 - 08/19/21 10:55 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

For me personally, I prefer to eat how nature has intended it. Like with vegetables, mushrooms contain compounds that work like a sympfonie on the body (Nutritional Renaissance by T Colin Campbell)

I don't see myself making many capsules from myceliated rice.. I would eat it if it tastes good though. If the lion's mane fruit body does not do much for the brain, I'll indeed use it for cooking as a meat substitude, as I do follow a wholefoods plantbased lifestyle. Who knows maybe in 20 years science will come to a different conclusion.. many are conditioned and therefore corrupt anway. After all thought is limited, there is always something new to learn something not known.


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OfflineOra
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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: 0t0lerance]
    #27436253 - 08/20/21 05:09 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

just go with Oriveda brand Lions mane. if you do searches on reddit theres a lot of evidence to support its the best brand. they measure all the actives, have 2 types of extracts, so you get 2x the capsules, though at a higher starting price. the alcohol extract is from mycellium extract. no other company will list their % of Hericenones and erinacines because you can bet its very low.

realmushrooms brand is good, but its a water extract, and hericenones and erinacines are alcohol extracted. studies have shown both will provide benefits, but i think most studies are done with Hericenones and erinacines. good thing about oriveda is they provide both water extract and alcohol extract in seperate capsules so you can mix and match or take one at a time.

as for growing lions mane, im sure youll get benefits, but youll need to eat more because its hard for your body to extract it. professionally made mushroom supplements use high pressure and sometimes duel extracted with alcohol so its hard to get the same potency with professional equiptment, but i bet if you use your PC to cook it for 2-3 hours you can extract it better than just eating it.

i remember some study i read, like 1g of extracted mushroom powder was equivalent to 5g dried mushroom powder, so thats like what 50g wet mushroom a day?


Edited by Ora (08/20/21 05:15 PM)


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: Ora]
    #27436914 - 08/21/21 07:17 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the info Ora.  I just found a reddit thread confirming a lot of what you're saying.

As I'm about to start a pretty full semester I'm going to try the Oriveda brand and see how it goes.

Any thoughts on Chaga/Cordyceps?  I'm getting those from RealMushrooms too.  Or has anyone grown cords and done their own extractions?

I have some Reishi going to make tinctures from as I think I can do that one pretty effectively myself.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineOra
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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #27436924 - 08/21/21 07:25 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I take cordyceps from realmushrooms. Supposedly good for endurance type stuff, but I only take the minimum 2 caps, 1 gram, so I don't know if I can feel an effect. Most supps don't affect me in a real visceral way though.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: Ora]
    #27436933 - 08/21/21 07:32 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

If I take both my chaga and the cords (2 caps) in the morning I can feel it.  Usually I split my dose honestly (one capsule of each in the morning, one at lunch).

But I've had issues feeling overstimulated from just the chaga.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineOra
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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #27437577 - 08/21/21 05:24 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe I should split the dosages. I just thought the 2 caps at once was standard.

On a side note, I saw one study say they took 1g of dried lions mane powder and noted cognitive improvement. So I guess growing your own lions mane is still beneficial.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: Lion's mane fruit reduces neurogenesis?? [Re: Ora]
    #27438326 - 08/22/21 10:19 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

My thoughts are that the half-life of most things is pretty small without being modified somehow.

Psilocybin being the only mushroom alkaloid I'm sure of the half-life on, I split my dose.

But that's really not that scientific tbh.  Just figured it can't hurt to split it and go for more of a steady state.  If I was microdosing cubes I'd split it so I do it here.

That said, I like to take both my Lion's Mane before bed sometimes.  Figuring that NGF would have the most benefit during sleep.  But again, this is just an educated guess and I don't have any research to back this stuff up other than knowing how long term memory and other forms of cell generation and regeneration tend to happen during sleep.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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