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InvisibleSteinM
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Ok, Why vote for Kerry?
    #2743083 - 05/28/04 11:41 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Why? Just to oust Bush? Seriously, why vote kerry?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: Stein]
    #2743094 - 05/28/04 11:44 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Because with an opposing party in Congress, he will not be capable of doing as much damage as Bush.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: Stein]
    #2743097 - 05/28/04 11:45 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

(from John Kerry's official campaign site. IMHO this shit is really good, even if he only achieves a few of these objectives.....)

THE FIRST 100 DAYS - COMPLETE ACTION PLAN:
"...I want to lay out some of what I?ll do in the first hundred days of a Kerry Administration to make the Real Deal a reality. In the weeks ahead, I?m going to lay out an Action Plan for the First 100 Days. The specific steps we will take to change America ? the steps I will fight for in the early days of a Kerry Presidency...? - John Kerry
As part of his action plan to change America, John Kerry vowed to:
(* Click on the (+) besides each item to see more details below)

(1) A New National Education Trust Fund
We will propose a National Education Trust Fund to make sure that, for the first time ever, we fully fund our schools so they have the tools to assure our kids can succeed in the 21st century economy. We will make a new deal on education ? if Washington is going to mandate something for our schools, then the funding should be mandatory.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE COMPLETE Real Deal for Education: Plan to Strengthen Public Schools


(2) A New Era of National Service
John Kerry will call on Americans of all ages ? from students to America?s seniors - to serve in our classrooms, after school programs, nursing homes and nursery schools. We will fight to allow students to earn four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE COMPLETE PLAN


(3) End the ?Era of Ashcroft?
John Ashcroft has launched an all-out assault on individual rights, allowing for a wholesale invasion of attorney-client conversations, e-mails and telephone calls. Immediately after the election, John Kerry will name a new Attorney General whose name is not John Ashcroft. We will also fight to protect women?s rights, civil rights and workers rights and enforce anti-trust laws.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE COMPLETE Real Deal for Civil Liberties: End the 'Era of Ashcroft'


(4) Repeal Bush Assault on the Environment and Make U.S. Energy Independent
We will rollback the George W. Bush assault on clean air and clean water and work to strengthen our nation?s environmental laws. Kerry will also put forward a plan to make the U.S. energy independent of Middle East oil in ten years?and create 500,000 jobs by investing in energy renewable sources, such as ethanol, solar, and wind.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE COMPLETE Real Deal for The Environment


(5) Rejoin the Community of Nations
We will immediately declare the Bush policy of unilateralism over and work to rebuild our shattered alliances all across the globe. We will launch a successful war against terrorism and also restore trust here at home and abroad by making sure that America always tells the whole truth.
Read the Comprehensive Agenda to Make America Secure Again
Read the Plan to Assure America is Prepared for Increased Terrorism Threat

WATCH NOW: "Making America Secure Again"
At an address to the Council on Foreign Relations on Wednesday December 03, John Kerry outlined the steps he would take to reverse the damage to U.S. security and leadership caused by President Bush?s flawed policies of unilateralism and preemptive war.

56K DSL
56K DSL







(6) First Major Legislative Plan: Affordable Health Care
John Kerry?s first major proposal to Congress will be a realistic plan that stops spiraling healthcare costs, covers every child in America, and makes it possible for every American to get the same health care as any Member of Congress.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE COMPLETE Real Deal for Medicare: Four Point Plan to Restore Medicare


(7) Reward Companies that Create Jobs not Phony Corporate Profit
We will work to reward companies that create jobs by helping with health care costs, a new manufacturing jobs tax credit and new assistance for small businesses. We will also close every single loophole for companies that take jobs offshore and apply new criminal penalties, such as RICO penalties, on companies that defraud their customers and workers.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE COMPLETE Real Deal for Corporate Responsibility: Plan to Help Investors Recover Losses with New RICO Penalties


(8) Create a Middle Class Economy and End the Privileged Class Economy
We will fight to repeal the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans so that we can invest in education and health care. We will also protect middle class tax cuts, such as the child credit and the elimination of the marriage penalty and propose additional tax credits to help middle class families make ends meet.

(9) Cut the Deficit in Half in Four Years
We will put forward a budget to restore fiscal sanity, eliminate corporate welfare, and cut the deficit in half in four years. However, we will keep our compact to seniors by securing Medicare and Social Security and protecting our children and veterans.

(10) End Influence Peddling and Secret Deals
We will reinstate the five-year ban on lobbying so that government officials - like Bush?s former campaign manager and FEMA director - cannot cash in by peddling influence. We will also shine the light on the secret deals in Washington by requiring every meeting with a lobbyist or any special interest deal inserted into a bill by a lobbyist be made public.


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InvisibleSteinM
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2743099 - 05/28/04 11:46 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

What damage are we talking about? War?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: Stein]
    #2743104 - 05/28/04 11:49 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stein said:
What damage are we talking about? War?



foreign policy, civil liberties, the budget deficit, the environment, the economy, etc. If Kerry tried to do half the shit that Bush pulled off, the Republicans would be screaming for his head.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSteinM
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2743118 - 05/28/04 11:55 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:

the Republicans would be screaming for his head.




Sounds alot like whats happening to Bush but in the opposite. Wouldn't you agree?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: Stein]
    #2743136 - 05/29/04 12:03 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stein said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:

the Republicans would be screaming for his head.




Sounds alot like whats happening to Bush but in the opposite. Wouldn't you agree?



Sure, but the difference is that the Republicans control all three branches of the federal government.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2743138 - 05/29/04 12:04 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

j00, thats not really telling me anything. Thats like saying we need better education and safer streets. Im too lazy to read up on his full specific plan, has anybody?


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Offlinebiglo
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: Stein]
    #2743152 - 05/29/04 12:11 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It's a struggle back and forth.  Both sides work to oust and put down the other party because the ruling party puts down the other one.  After years of liberal oppression (some points valid for this claim, while other policies made Republicans "feel" oppressed [PS isn't that ironic coming from a conservative POV? :wink: ]) the Republicans finally got back in power and went on a power trip.  I hope Kerry gets elected just so that some balance can be brought back.  I just hope that if elected the Kerry administration doesn't go on a similar power trip. :frown:


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InvisibleSteinM
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2743160 - 05/29/04 12:15 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

True, but some who stand also lean in the opposite direction. Its not really a complete majority.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2743202 - 05/29/04 12:31 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

even if he could accomplish just a quarter of this,
I would consider his tenure successfull.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: afoaf]
    #2743879 - 05/29/04 11:34 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

agreed.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2744119 - 05/29/04 01:20 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

1. Education trust fund: Why does anybody think that education should be a federal issue? Schools are by and large paid for by local taxes and controlled by local boards. Do you think it's a good idea to give increased control over local schools to a bunch of Washington beaurocrats?

2.National service: This is a fucking civil liberties nightmare. Not only does he want to take our money in taxes but he wants to compel everyone to perform acts of service for others. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." It's a fucking draft. 4 years of tuition for 2 years service huh. Lets see 4 years tuition at quality state schools costs about, tops, $20,000 (tuition doesn't include room and board and he said tuition). Two years service is approximately 4,000 hrs (100 weeks at 40 hrs ea.) and minimum wage is what about $5 an hour now? So he wants to force everyone to work for the minimum wage for 2 years. If you have no interest in going to college HE WANTS YOU TO WORK TWO YEARS FOR NOTHING! Fuck that.

3.So he'll fire Ashcroft. No shit. In regards to privacy rights there is currently a law requiring doctors to report incidents of suspected child abuse. This violates privacy rights. Should it be repealed? There is a continuum of privacy rights and he wants to slide it somewhat to the left of the current one. So he says. It will no doubt hinder efforts to prevent some crimes. Where should the line be drawn? My opinion is miles left of Ashcroft on no victim morality issues and miles right of Lynn Stewart and John Kerry on investigatory empowerment. The rest is just blather. What about equal protection and men's rights?

4. What assault? The only thing I'm not happy about is the Clean Air crap that lets Ohio keep sending it's emissions over my state because they're too cheap to fix their power plant scrubbers. Oh wait, that was already a loophole in the Clean Air Act. My hundred to your ten that the fuck doesn't repropose the windmills off-shore by the Kennedy compound in Hyannis that is being fought tooth and nail by the Kennedy hypocrites.

5. So he says we will take no action unless all other nations approve. I can't remember, tell me again which nation currently chairs the UN commission on human rights, is it Libya or the Sudan, I forget?

6. Health care: Every American get the same health care as any member of congress. Are you fucking kidding me? This is impossible just based on the varying abilities of doctors. The only way to achieve this would be to make members of Congress go only to hospitals in D.C. ghettos. The cost to the taxpayer would be astronomical. Or does he propose to federally mandate how much health care providers can earn? We'll see how many doctors there'll be then.

7. Reward companies that create jobs and not phony profits: There is no such thing as a phony profit. There are phony books kept but profits are real. If I own a construction company and get rid of my excavator and operator and hire ten of his national service college grads with shovels will I be rewarded? I'll have to be because my competitor with the excavator is gonna get all the work.

8. Create a middle class economy and end the priveleged class economy: You cannot create what already exists. To suggest otherwise is assinine. As to the privelege class nonsense he really should keep his mouth shut. Born a patrician and married UP. TWICE.

9. Cut the deficit in half: The deficit will go down because he won't have to deal with the Clinton recession and hopefully not another 9/11 and 2 wars. Well we know he won't have to deal with any wars because he won't ever act but we could have several 9/11s because he won't ever act. But there definitely won't be a Clinton recession.

10. End influence peddling: Other than campaign contributions, the restriction of which has it's own free speech issues, he wants to require all lobbyist meetings with Congressional figures to be public. I don't think you want to prohibit people from talking to their representatives and thus you would have to make all such correspondence public. The volume of information would be staggering. I think there already is a law requiring a waiting period before government employees can be lobbyists. Let's not forget that this phony has been a Senator for way too long and has no doubt had thousands of unpublicized meetings with lobbyists. Just one more example of what a phony piece of shit he is. And, yes,

I WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE BUSH (Ashcroft can go though)


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OfflineGus
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2744167 - 05/29/04 01:40 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

That seems like a good starting plan, even if its a little bit too good to be true :wink:


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: Gus]
    #2744186 - 05/29/04 01:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It does seem too good to be true, but at least he's officially got all the right sorts of goals.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2744755 - 05/29/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

zappa I love you, that was beautiful, and harsely entertaining.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: Redo]
    #2745669 - 05/30/04 03:38 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

hmmm, i thought it was actually a pretty lame reply overall

1) bush was the one who wanted the federal 'no child left behind'

2) im pretty sure they give you stipend--not to mention FREE ROOM AND BOARD

3) Um, yeah, you can't pick and choose, vote for bush, youre voting for ashcroft, that's all there is to it.  thats what you get for voting for a fiscal conservative, you get the social conservative (unless you want to vote libertarian, in which case, go right ahead).

4) You think Bush hasn't done bad things to the env? all i can say is read more.  like his 'energy plan' for starters that calls for 'voluntary' emission reductions :rotfl:

5) not all nations, just at least the security council, so at least we don't look like an imperial force.  i think this was a big reason for iraq's difficulties.  remember, a lot of these guys can't read so they just see guys coming down in american uniforms taking over their country.  what are they supposed to believe?  going without the UN was an extremely bad idea, not because the UN has any teeth or because they are without hipocracy, but because it was really bad for our image and the ideology war in iraq.

6) that argument was so retarded that i'm just assuming you were attempting to make a joke.

7) of course there are such things as 'phony profits', i don't know what youre talking about.  maybe try looking up 'phony' in the dictionary?  and he's referring to bush coddling the corrupt corporations like enron who are fucking over their employees rather than contributing to america, yet we hand them corporate welfare--another way bush is no fiscal conservative, corporate welfare.

8) Pot calling the kettle black--oh wait no, im sure Bush got where he is today through hard work and intelligence.  that's why he beat john mcain :rolleyes:

9) Yeah those clinton years sure sucked didnt they.  the economy was in ruins for those 8 years.  but you're right, bush will sorely be missed for creating unnecessary wars that kill thousands of people and drain our economy.  thats gonna suck when thats gone :shake:

10) If you don't think the campaign finance system needs serious reform, i don't quite know what to say.

--and no, ashcroft cannot go if bush stays



Quote:

redo said thats not really telling me anything. Thats like saying we need better education and safer streets. Im too lazy to read up on his full specific plan




it sounds like you didnt even read that all the way through, if you can't even be bothered to read it, don't talk.


Edited by TaoTeChing (05/30/04 04:34 AM)


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2746501 - 05/30/04 01:40 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
1. Education trust fund: Why does anybody think that education should be a federal issue? Schools are by and large paid for by local taxes and controlled by local boards. Do you think it's a good idea to give increased control over local schools to a bunch of Washington beaurocrats?




well, if bush wants to make educational standards a federal issue,
we may as well equip them financially with the tools to enable them
to meet these standards. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a teacher
or education group that would NOT want funding, especially considering
the sorry state of public schools. Further, to preempt the lame Dem=tax
theory, where does he say he has to raise taxes to create the trust?
No, I do not like the idea of washington beaurocrats meddling in local
education issues, but, again, we can thank Bush for that, not Kerry.

Quote:

2.National service: This is a fucking civil liberties nightmare. Not only does he want to take our money in taxes but he wants to compel everyone to perform acts of service for others. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." It's a fucking draft. 4 years of tuition for 2 years service huh. Lets see 4 years tuition at quality state schools costs about, tops, $20,000 (tuition doesn't include room and board and he said tuition). Two years service is approximately 4,000 hrs (100 weeks at 40 hrs ea.) and minimum wage is what about $5 an hour now? So he wants to force everyone to work for the minimum wage for 2 years. If you have no interest in going to college HE WANTS YOU TO WORK TWO YEARS FOR NOTHING! Fuck that.




work on your reading...nowhere does it say that it is forced labor or
a draft. furthermore, I'm sure there are a lot of people that the 4 for
2 deal would be a dream come true. at the very least, I think that it
would be therapeutic for americans to rejoin civic groups and volunteer
their time and energies to help their communities. all the more better
if they can reap some personal benefit from it as well.


Quote:


3.So he'll fire Ashcroft. No shit. In regards to privacy rights there is currently a law requiring doctors to report incidents of suspected child abuse. This violates privacy rights. Should it be repealed? There is a continuum of privacy rights and he wants to slide it somewhat to the left of the current one. So he says. It will no doubt hinder efforts to prevent some crimes. Where should the line be drawn? My opinion is miles left of Ashcroft on no victim morality issues and miles right of Lynn Stewart and John Kerry on investigatory empowerment. The rest is just blather. What about equal protection and men's rights?





ashcroft gone? GREAT!

Quote:

4. What assault? The only thing I'm not happy about is the Clean Air crap that lets Ohio keep sending it's emissions over my state because they're too cheap to fix their power plant scrubbers. Oh wait, that was already a loophole in the Clean Air Act. My hundred to your ten that the fuck doesn't repropose the windmills off-shore by the Kennedy compound in Hyannis that is being fought tooth and nail by the Kennedy hypocrites.





wake up....

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/environment/jan-june01/bushenv_3-29.html
http://www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/
http://www.environment2004.org/documents.php
http://www.sierraclub.org/wwatch/
http://www.foe.org/camps/leg/bushwatch/chron.html

it goes on and on....

Quote:

5. So he says we will take no action unless all other nations approve. I can't remember, tell me again which nation currently chairs the UN commission on human rights, is it Libya or the Sudan, I forget?




you're right, international consensus is sooo last century.

waging war unilaterally is where it's at!

on september 12th, we had the rest of the world on our
side, today, unfortunately, we do not.

Quote:

6. Health care: Every American get the same health care as any member of congress. Are you fucking kidding me? This is impossible just based on the varying abilities of doctors. The only way to achieve this would be to make members of Congress go only to hospitals in D.C. ghettos. The cost to the taxpayer would be astronomical. Or does he propose to federally mandate how much health care providers can earn? We'll see how many doctors there'll be then.




I could go either way on universal health care.

methinks it's too late for it lest we sell our souls to
the pharmaceutical and insurance satans.

Quote:

7. Reward companies that create jobs and not phony profits: There is no such thing as a phony profit. There are phony books kept but profits are real. If I own a construction company and get rid of my excavator and operator and hire ten of his national service college grads with shovels will I be rewarded? I'll have to be because my competitor with the excavator is gonna get all the work.




way to focus on the point...he's talking offshore tax shelters that allow
businesses to pay ZERO taxes, questionable book keeping that causes
thousands to lose their retirements and pensions while the chief officers
are able to walk away with millions and NO JAIL TIME.

there is such thing as phony profit, please read 'The Best Democracy
Money Can Buy' by Greg Palast, he explains quite clearly how Enron
did it for years.

Quote:

8. Create a middle class economy and end the priveleged class economy: You cannot create what already exists. To suggest otherwise is assinine. As to the privelege class nonsense he really should keep his mouth shut. Born a patrician and married UP. TWICE.




reagan and bush I's tax policies redistributed wealth to the upper
classes via tax cuts in a test of trickle down economics. during their
tenure, the united states ran astronomical deficits. Clinton reversed
this by placing the majority of the tax burden on the wealthy and
alleviating the middle class' tax burden, this resulted in a reduction
in the deficit and wound up creating a large budget surplus. the middle
class economy has been proven to work while an upper class economy
failed miserably. I'm not quite sure why Bush II wants to walk us through
a failed policy a third time. Remember 'no new taxes', Bush I had to
raise them because the cuts did not work.

further, for a wealthy man like Kerry to take a stand on an issue
like this the way he has lends some legitimacy to it. Remember,
he's going to have to pay the higher taxes too.

Quote:

9. Cut the deficit in half: The deficit will go down because he won't have to deal with the Clinton recession and hopefully not another 9/11 and 2 wars. Well we know he won't have to deal with any wars because he won't ever act but we could have several 9/11s because he won't ever act. But there definitely won't be a Clinton recession.




isn't it fun to play make-believe? it's all clinton's fault and kerry will let
the bad guys come and kill us but he won't wage unilateral war cuz
he's teh max 1337 pussy. awesome argument, dude!

Quote:

10. End influence peddling: Other than campaign contributions, the restriction of which has it's own free speech issues, he wants to require all lobbyist meetings with Congressional figures to be public. I don't think you want to prohibit people from talking to their representatives and thus you would have to make all such correspondence public. The volume of information would be staggering. I think there already is a law requiring a waiting period before government employees can be lobbyists. Let's not forget that this phony has been a Senator for way too long and has no doubt had thousands of unpublicized meetings with lobbyists. Just one more example of what a phony piece of shit he is. And, yes,

I WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE BUSH (Ashcroft can go though)




apparently you seem to be unable to tell the difference between a
lobbyist and an average citizen. lobbyists get paid to badger senators,
citizens like you and me don't. personally, I'd love to know how many
oil lobbyists Bush has met with and I'd like to know how many trial
lawyer lobbyists Kerry has met with.

all in all, after reading your remarks, you seem to be less interested
in facts and details than you are in biased partisan blathering.

Bush has already proven himself inept, incompetent or worse, down
right malicious.

it's about time we get another dirt bag in office, it can't possibly get
any worse than it already is.


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: Tao]
    #2746699 - 05/30/04 02:32 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

1. The "No child left...." was to try and compel some kind of minimum standards for all school districts. Sounds like Kerry wants to federalize education, which is much more intrusive

2. It just said tuition. I don't care, it's still indentured servitude, and I still say FUCK THAT. To reiterate, what about the people who have no interest in college, they get nothing. Or would you compel school attendance for 16 years instead of 10, paid for by the government, i.e. us, that is of dubious value for probably half the population?

5. The security council is as corrupt as the rest. Russia, Germany and France were bought off by Saddam to influence their votes. This wasn't influence peddling, it was out and out bribe taking. Hell, they probably invented the schemes whereby it was accomplished. Their interests are not ours.

3. Ashcroft is unfortunate but not nearly enough to make me change my choice.

4. Show me specificly where the assaults by the Bush admin. have taken place. My main point is that no administration has done anything much different than any other. There are non-significant differences and there has been a reason for that. The voters in no way will support the kind of change needed to wean us from middle eastern oil. It's just a fact, if you try you will be removed from office and your plans repealed.
What desperately needs to be done for energy is research into fusion, it's our only chance. All the other stuff can't come close to meeting demand, especially with the increased consumption in the rest of the world. And we'll still need oil to produce plastics and medicines and other stuff. But we should definitely put a wind farm in Kennedy's face.

6. That was not a joke at all. It's assinine to expect that everybody have the best health care available. 100% of the people go to the top 20% of the doctors. All the other doctors do nothing. That works.

Got to go, maybe more later


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Ok, Why vote for Kerry? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2746722 - 05/30/04 02:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"Russia, Germany and France were bought off by Saddam to influence their votes."

Hahaha... just because a country's views are logical and levelheaded doesn't mean they were siding with the "evil enemy". Seriously, this made me laugh. Do you think that Canada was bought off as well since we didn't bring troops in?


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