Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Mushroom-Hut Grow Bags   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: kidcharlemagne]
    #27440577 - 08/24/21 08:08 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

????? I'm not sure if I'm being trolled at this point....

Who doesnt prefer bigger, denser, more numerous mushrooms?

Yes, I'm using more substrate because more substrate means more water, more water means more harvest weight, more harvest weight means higher yield.

There is no detriment to yield, I was saying that too much spawn could hurt yield not the other way around.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
modboy
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,268
Loc: where?
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27440579 - 08/24/21 08:15 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
????? I'm not sure if I'm being trolled at this point....





yah ive been sitting here trying to word a response but im not sure how:lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekidcharlemagne
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 261
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440690 - 08/24/21 09:37 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
????? I'm not sure if I'm being trolled at this point....

Who doesnt prefer bigger, denser, more numerous mushrooms?

Yes, I'm using more substrate because more substrate means more water, more water means more harvest weight, more harvest weight means higher yield.

There is no detriment to yield, I was saying that too much spawn could hurt yield not the other way around.




The confusion lies in your assuming that when I say different spawn to sub ratios, that necessarily means I'm varying spawn rather than sub.  I thought I made it clear twice I was talking about sub amounts  and even asked for your observations on 1:3 vs 1:6 which is varying sub, not spawn).  I mean the whole thing unusual about what you do is using large amounts of sub. 

I'm trying to figure out if the extra cost and prep time of the lower spawn to sub ratio is worth it to me as a casual grower.  If the increase in yield is 10%, I prob wouldn't do it.  If it's closer to 35% then I would.  Thanks for your help.


Edited by kidcharlemagne (08/24/21 09:40 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
modboy
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,268
Loc: where?
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: kidcharlemagne]
    #27440704 - 08/24/21 09:44 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

yes. especially for a casual grower. stretch your spawn:thumbup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: kidcharlemagne]
    #27440709 - 08/24/21 09:46 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

If you have a clone that has pretty a consistent yield with your current recipe, grow it with this method and see if there is enough of a return for you. This is dependent upon your cultures ability to utilize h20 though.

Get an average wet weight of any particular clone and compare it to the weight of your input water, if you're only utilizing 20% of your input water you've chosen an inefficient culture; if you are moving 60% and above you're moving in the right direction...aim for 70+% efficiency.

If you're growing an inefficient culture this method won't do anything substantial for you, although 20% of 5000grams is slightly higher than 20% of say 3000grams.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekarri0n
Mind Traveller
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/29/20
Posts: 698
Last seen: 15 days, 1 hour
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440721 - 08/24/21 09:49 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
You do not get bigger denser mushrooms by adding more and more spawn, don't use 6 quarts of spawn, use 4 or 5.

My answer is probably no difference, and it may actually harm your overall yield.


I would wager that we could even get away with using even less spawn than that.




You're answering the question in sorta the opposite direction from which it was asked, I think.

Or rather, you are starting from different starting lines. P9, you're coming from "x amount of sub = x amount of yield", whereas the guy asking is coming from the assumption "x amount of spawn = x amount of yield"

So you sorta answered the opposite of the question he's asking, which was the difference in yield between 2 quarts sub and 4 quarts sub when keeping the grain the same.

I'd guess you probably used smaller ratios earlier on, do you have/remember those results?

Can I just throw this half pint of ape spawn I've got sitting around into 2 quarts sub and expect the same yield as when I did 1 quart spawn to 2 quarts sub? It sounds like that's what you're saying.


--------------------

Panaeolus Bisporus


Edited by karri0n (08/24/21 09:51 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekidcharlemagne
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 261
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440727 - 08/24/21 09:51 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)



I totally get it will vary relative to the strain's capacity to uptake H20, but might I ask what your specific  yield increase is so I can get a sense of the possible?


Edited by kidcharlemagne (08/24/21 09:52 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: karri0n]
    #27440750 - 08/24/21 10:03 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Lol, what are you guys talking about:confused:

I clearly stated that x amount of spawn is nearly irrelevant, he needs to adjust that perspective and realize that the correct perspective is x amount of water should translate to x amount of yield.

So, it's important for a grower to track any given cultures wet weight post flush, and compare it to the amount of h20 in the substrate.

If your recipe is 650gr coir
3 quarts verm
3 liters h20
X amount of spawn.

You'll know that your starting weight of your h20 is 3000grams, if your wet yield first flush always stands around ~600 grams you can say that your clone has an average efficiency of ~20%.

This is not good, you want a culture that run the highest possible efficiency for a higher BE. The addition of excess spawn will not increase your BE:

biological efficiency (BE) = the wet weight of fruits / the dry weight of the substrate * 100

You will have diminishing returns and even possible mutations in the culture if you run your substrate too rich on the supplementation (too much grain to substrate).


So as muaboy said, the best way to stretch  your spawn is to use less spawn and more substrate. This is more cost effective and a better allocation of resources.

Even with a culture with a low BE, 20% of 5000 is greater than 20% of 3000, it's actually nearly double the wet yield.

If my yield didn't increase then this thread would be 100% pointless.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekarri0n
Mind Traveller
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/29/20
Posts: 698
Last seen: 15 days, 1 hour
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440779 - 08/24/21 10:26 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Are you saying the BE calculation isn't actually supposed to take the weight of the grain into account?

I always thought it was how much BE you get out of all nutritious sources - wood + grain since originally it was made for gourmets.

I also thought this is why BE calculation is not a  great model for cubes since the sub isn't nutritious.

With this, you have fully debunked the old adage of 1 quart spawn  = 1oz dry fruit as "average" and 1q = 2oz + as "pro"


--------------------

Panaeolus Bisporus


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
modboy
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,268
Loc: where?
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440782 - 08/24/21 10:27 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

i agree. larger spawn to sub ratios even 1:1 can give me issues like mutations or just lack luster performance. 1:3 or 1:4 is the way to go imo.

and ALWAYS with a top layer:awedance:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: karri0n]
    #27440810 - 08/24/21 10:43 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Are you saying the BE calculation isn't actually supposed to take the weight of the grain into account?




I don't count it personally because the dry weight of millet is pretty insignificant and a fucking pita to calculate.

Quote:

I always thought it was how much BE you get out of all nutritious sources - wood + grain since originally it was made for gourmets.




Wood/sawdust has very little nutrients (carbon/nitrogen), however, edible saprotrophs respond differently to varying levels of lignin, cellulose, and hemicellulose.

Quote:

I also thought this is why BE calculation is not a  great model for cubes since the sub isn't nutritious.




Coir lacks nutrients in much the same way wood substrates do: wood substrates are supplemented with grain products like bran for this reason; the same is true with CV, we supplement with a whole grain product when spawning with seeds/cereal grains.


Quote:

With this, you have fully debunked the old adage of 1 quart spawn  = 1oz dry fruit as "average" and 1q = 2oz + as "pro"




Not really, it remains a great metric but without the implication that the cause is from the amount of supplementation alone. Supplementation is still part of the picture, it's still necessary for healthy growth but isn't the primary cause of an increased yield.

The amount of spawn has a direct correlation to substrate size when applied to most recipes. Using 4 quarts of spawn implies an increase of sub/water. People are hearing "more spawn =more mush" what you should be hearing is "more spawn =more sub/water"

The same is true for edibles:

If you have a 5lb hwfp block and supplement with 1 jar of spawn (roughly 1lb when hydrated and myceliated) you are supplementing at 20%

If one exceeds 20% supplementation on production blocks it will actually inhibit the cultures growth speed, and overall fruiting performance.



Numbers of days to initiation(pinning) (NDTP)


The same is true for cubes. Too much supplementation (spawn) is bad, use less supplementation and more substrate/water.

I'd like to experiment with PE as I think that we are using too much spawn for this variety and may be a correlation to PE blobs/length of time to initiation.


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (08/24/21 11:01 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekidcharlemagne
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 261
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440831 - 08/24/21 11:00 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
????? I'm not sure if I'm being trolled at this point....

Who doesnt prefer bigger, denser, more numerous mushrooms?

Yes, I'm using more substrate because more substrate means more water, more water means more harvest weight, more harvest weight means higher yield.

There is no detriment to yield, I was saying that too much spawn could hurt yield not the other way around.




The confusion lies in your assuming that when I say higher spawn to sub ratios that means I'm talking about increasing the spawn rather than the decreasing the sub. I specifically asked about  the difference between 1:3 ratios vs 1:6 ratios, which shows I'm talking about a varying the sub amount.  First you mentioned you don't get yield increases, but get larger fruits.  As someone who doesn't care about fruit size, I wouldn't be interested in that.  But then you m
Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Lol, what are you guys talking about:confused:

I clearly stated that x amount of spawn is nearly irrelevant, he needs to adjust that perspective and realize that the correct perspective is x amount of water should translate to x amount of yield.

So, it's important for a grower to track any given cultures wet weight post flush, and compare it to the amount of h20 in the substrate.

If your recipe is 650gr coir
3 quarts verm
3 liters h20
X amount of spawn.

You'll know that your starting weight of your h20 is 3000grams, if your wet yield first flush always stands around ~600 grams you can say that your clone has an average efficiency of ~20%.

This is not good, you want a culture that run the highest possible efficiency for a higher BE. The addition of excess spawn will not increase your BE:

biological efficiency (BE) = the wet weight of fruits / the dry weight of the substrate * 100

You will have diminishing returns and even possible mutations in the culture if you run your substrate too rich on the supplementation (too much grain to substrate).


So as muaboy said, the best way to stretch  your spawn is to use less spawn and more substrate. This is more cost effective and a better allocation of resources.

Even with a culture with a low BE, 20% of 5000 is greater than 20% of 3000, it's actually nearly double the wet yield.

If my yield didn't increase then this thread would be 100% pointless.




You're consistently answering questions, I'm not asking or misinterpreting my questions entirely.  I wouldn't mind, but the troll accusations and dumbfoundedness at our stupidity, is unwarranted given I've asked the same question 4-5x that has still gone unanswered.  Here is the question one more time  if you're still at all inclined to answer it: 

With YOUR culture, that you run at 1:6 - do you have any data or casual observations of the percentage yield difference versus if you ran that same quart with less subtrate (1:2, 1:3, etc.)?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: kidcharlemagne]
    #27440836 - 08/24/21 11:04 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I am perplexed because I have answered that question: the answer is yes. Yes I have noticed an increase in performance and the maintenance of surface conditions.

I have noticed that pins experience an increase in distribution and density. I have noticed an increase in post flush harvest weight.

If I had not experienced any change, then this thread would be 100% useless.

There is a 100% direct correlation to fruit size and its weight, a big cat weighs more than a small cat, unless they're hollow which I've specifically mentioned.

So...if you increase the size/weight of your fruits you will increase your yield.

Am I missing something here...like when you say "increase your spawn to sup ratio" This means an increase in spawn, not the other way around.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOra
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 734
Loc: in your heart
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440850 - 08/24/21 11:11 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

i think its just cause maths is hard so they want numbers like 1:2 produced 40g dried, 1:6 produced 100g dried etc. all the percentages probably got them going cross-eyed.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekidcharlemagne
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 261
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440853 - 08/24/21 11:12 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

p9hu7 said:
I am perplexed because I have answered that question: the answer is yes. Yes I have noticed an increase in performance and the maintenance of surface conditions.

I have noticed that pins experience an increase in distribution and density. I have noticed an increase in post flush harvest weight.

If I had not experienced any change, then this thread would be 100% useless.






I obviously know you see improvement otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.  If you recall, I asked you HOW MUCH of an improvement.  I said I probably wouldn't pursue it for a 10% difference, but I might for a 30%.  And yes, I understand that any culture I have may not achieve the same gains, but that's not what I'm asking.  You said you approached it scientifically, so I presumed you might have data.  I know the yield is more, but is it 10%, %50, etc?


Edited by kidcharlemagne (08/24/21 11:13 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekidcharlemagne
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 261
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Ora]
    #27440865 - 08/24/21 11:21 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ora said:
i think its just cause maths is hard so they want numbers like 1:2 produced 40g dried, 1:6 produced 100g dried etc. all the percentages probably got them going cross-eyed.




I've been asking for percentages thanks.  Where does he give the percent difference in yields as a function of quarts of sub?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOra
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 734
Loc: in your heart
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: kidcharlemagne]
    #27440890 - 08/24/21 11:29 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

all the stuff about water equating to yield. 3 of his posts before. idk my eyes just glazed over reading it, too much maths


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekidcharlemagne
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 261
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Ora]
    #27440912 - 08/24/21 11:40 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ora said:
all the stuff about water equating to yield. 3 of his posts before. idk my eyes just glazed over reading it, too much maths




He was speaking theoretically there, so you might want to know what your talking about before throwing snark about growing cross-eyed at percentages.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDERRAYLD
Constructus
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9,284
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 2 hours, 5 minutes
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: kidcharlemagne]
    #27440916 - 08/24/21 11:41 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Top thread p9


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOra
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 734
Loc: in your heart
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27440929 - 08/24/21 11:49 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

these are from his first post

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Mushrooms are ~90-92% water by weight, because of this fact mushrooms benefit from having access to as much water as possible without exceedingthe limits of field capacity, so to increase available h20, you must increase substrate; by increasing the volume of substrate in my tubs and shoeboxes, combined with a thick compressed top layer I've managed to maximize the biological efficiency of my cultures.





Quote:

p9hu7 said:
A good clone should move ~70% (3500gr)
of the water into the fruits.(achieved by selecting the right clones)




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Mushroom-Hut Grow Bags   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* bottom layer of casing sirJ 973 4 06/10/02 04:25 PM
by henryp
* bottom layer of casing? arkan 1,218 2 06/29/01 03:54 AM
by puscle
* The bottom layer of casing: Perlite or Vermic.??? mrdasani 1,437 4 03/14/02 01:01 PM
by pleezr
* Re: can i sterilize top layer of casing mix like i do substrate? Anonymous 941 2 01/19/00 05:23 PM
by Anonymous
* Top layer verm casing - When is it ready? bjkroll 708 5 01/22/03 08:24 AM
by bjkroll
* Casings and humidity
( 1 2 all )
angryshroom 20,064 23 04/07/18 09:52 AM
by SarahBorealis
* casing from "The mushroom Cultivator" upupup 17,888 8 11/13/20 10:41 AM
by tiptrippy
* Perlite in tub with casings: A poll upupup 2,347 10 01/02/02 06:10 PM
by blahblahblah

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
38,281 topic views. 38 members, 216 guests and 38 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.035 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 15 queries.