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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Smartattack]
    #27567757 - 12/03/21 02:26 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with you 100% thats my understanding of it aswell.

Thats why I asked about cloning a clone before going back to spore. Within the context of trying to improve genetics. My thinking is its faster to clone then grow out from spore, so could you narrow things down faster this way or is there something about going back to spore that I dont understand?


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: milkboy]
    #27567947 - 12/03/21 05:08 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I'll attend to this thread soon, carry on folks.


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InvisibleMycoWeek
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27568477 - 12/04/21 12:38 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)


saw someone on Instagram using a BURGER SMASHER / PATTY MAKER to flatten out surface. I think this is a great alternative, it's slightly cheaper, got the rounded edge for corners, and it doesn't have the "steps".


Edited by MycoWeek (12/04/21 12:39 AM)


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: MycoWeek]
    #27568691 - 12/04/21 07:27 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

:coolpost:


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: milkboy]
    #27568699 - 12/04/21 07:31 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lets say Ive grown out some genetics from MS, grabbed a nice fruit, cloned, grew out the clone. Now from what I understand at this point I should take spores from that clone tub and grow them out which would result in F1 (or is the term F1 only applied to crosses?)




This isn't necessary unless you're making a cross or trying to stabilize traits as mentioned before.

You can just take clones that suit your taste, plate it and then take transfers from that master plate to grow out every time you want to grow it.

If you want to start breeding or to stabilize traits like pointy caps, knurled stipes,  or all of those traits mentioned in my previous post you'll need to go back to spore with each generation, but this isn't necessary for standard cloning.

Quote:

My question is,  are there any situations where cloning a clone before going back to spore could be beneficial?




You can clone a clone, it doesn't harm anything whatsoever, whether it's actually beneficial I doubt it.

Quote:

When people talk about cloning a clone senescence usually gets brought up but I dont think that would apply here. Thoughts? Am I getting something wrong here?





Unless you plan on growing cordycep I wouldn't worry about senescence, it's not going to happen.


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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27568748 - 12/04/21 08:38 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the response, I get it now. Sorry for slightly diverting the thread but you have a good way of explaining things.
:rockon:

I was mistakenly combining crossing and cloning into one methodology


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: milkboy]
    #27568755 - 12/04/21 08:42 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Np man, I'm happy to talk shop anytime.


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OfflineRwo
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27570312 - 12/05/21 12:33 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Are people going straight to fruiting conditions or waiting for colonization with this method?


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Invisiblefungusul
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Rwo]
    #27570423 - 12/05/21 02:04 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

:takingnotes:


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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: MycoWeek]
    #27570444 - 12/05/21 02:25 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I tried using those flattening tools and it always ends up sloped. Edges should be packed a bit harder to prevent side pins (if you aren't using a liner) so it should be a little uneven, anyways.


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InvisibleMycoWeek
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Smartattack]
    #27570527 - 12/05/21 03:49 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I have lots of questions for phenotype selection, but I'd like to keep P9's top layer thread on topic, so I created a new thread HERE. Please take a look and chime in. Thank you!


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Rwo]
    #27570664 - 12/05/21 06:08 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rwo said:
Are people going straight to fruiting conditions or waiting for colonization with this method?




Yes, spawn to fruiting as per usual.


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 2
    #27572880 - 12/07/21 07:51 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Here’s a p9 top layer PE tub (threw a very thin ‘1/8”’ casing on when the knots appeared a bit blobby). the tubs probably close to 1:5 with the layer.  I still prefer a traditional casing but I can see how it’s appealing to some who can’t or don’t want to use pasteurized peat


I think this guy will end nicely.. fat fruits for sure.. I dig it :thumbup:

Faht


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InvisibleMysticMycologist
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: fahtster]
    #27572884 - 12/07/21 07:56 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Hello fellows.

I’m doing a small Tupperware container of PE in a ziplock bag, and have employed the compressed top layer of CVG. The mycelium has already ripped through the top layer after 5 days, but the mixed substrate is still colonizing. Is this normal? Areal mycelium is fanning out on the surface.

Did I not make my top layer thick enough, or is this normal? It is only 1/2pint rye spawned to 1 pint CVG. Top layer is <1inch thick.





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OfflineSpaceBaby
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: fahtster]
    #27573235 - 12/08/21 06:23 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
Here’s a p9 top layer PE tub (threw a very thin ‘1/8”’ casing on when the knots appeared a bit blobby). the tubs probably close to 1:5 with the layer.  I still prefer a traditional casing but I can see how it’s appealing to some who can’t or don’t want to use pasteurized peat


I think this guy will end nicely.. fat fruits for sure.. I dig it :thumbup:

Faht




hey faht

you do traditional casing for APE and the uncut phenos?

got a peat moss pasteurization technique?

tyia


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: SpaceBaby]
    #27573335 - 12/08/21 08:23 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MysticMycologist said:
Hello fellows.

I’m doing a small Tupperware container of PE in a ziplock bag, and have employed the compressed top layer of CVG. The mycelium has already ripped through the top layer after 5 days, but the mixed substrate is still colonizing. Is this normal? Areal mycelium is fanning out on the surface.

Did I not make my top layer thick enough, or is this normal? It is only 1/2pint rye spawned to 1 pint CVG. Top layer is <1inch thick.








Bottom looks colonized to me… the TL only looks like 1”.  You can still add more

Quote:

SpaceBaby said:
Quote:

fahtster said:
Here’s a p9 top layer PE tub (threw a very thin ‘1/8”’ casing on when the knots appeared a bit blobby). the tubs probably close to 1:5 with the layer.  I still prefer a traditional casing but I can see how it’s appealing to some who can’t or don’t want to use pasteurized peat


I think this guy will end nicely.. fat fruits for sure.. I dig it :thumbup:

Faht




hey faht

you do traditional casing for APE and the uncut phenos?

got a peat moss pasteurization technique?

tyia




I’ve never grown ape.. it’s in the list but I’ll probably do yeti first.  I’ve only ever grown peu once and used a top layer but I’m sure a casing would work… probably similar to swpe since they take about the same time to pin.

This is what I do for pasteurizing but it doesn’t do a ton at a time.. there’s others’ past. methods in that thread.. franks right above and Ted explains his in there as well

Faht


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Invisible897
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: fahtster]
    #27573387 - 12/08/21 09:14 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Hey faht, what ratio CVG do you use for p9 style casing?

My last one i did not use any verm because I forgot to order before spawning the tubs. MS Tidalwave with an all coir p9 style compress and case.  1qt spawn 5qt coir(before case) all inside a 27qt mini mono. Definitely dried out more than it would have with verm. My next few tubs are all mixed with about a 2:1 coir to verm ratio.



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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: 897]
    #27573430 - 12/08/21 09:48 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Cultures and performance:

The recipe and procedure is like any other, for instance:

Using a regular c/v recipe with a standard peat casing won't do much for you unless you've done the work to acquire a culture that performs well.

The same applies to this method, it's not a magic bullet but it has to be followed to the letter for it to work correctly; If your sub is drying out you either have too much fae, not enough water in your sub, too thin of a top layer, or a combination of those things.

When I was running this recipe I had 20+ PE tubs on the go in rotation. I didn't experience drying of my substrate, no need for misting, had zero blobs, etc, but this takes dialing and following of the protocol to achieve.

Vermiculite allows for your substrate to hold more water than what coir alone can hold on it'sown, this is why I don't run coir only tubs, it's also why I've increased the amount of substrate in my tubs to about 18  liters of substrate. 

Blobs:

As I was dialing this in to prevent blobs my starting point was 100% blob city, as mentioned in the OP; as I increased the thickness of my top layer and added compression, my blobs dropped off and continued to drop off as I tweaked those two variables. What I'm hearing is that if a substrate is mostly blob free but has some small percentage of blobs forming then dialing is still required to remove any remaining blobs, which is to be expected.

If blobs are forming at all we know that without the correct casing strategy you will likely have 100% blobs, so if they are almost entirely gone but a few still remain, this is a sign that you're nearly there, but not quite yet.

I notice that some folks are posting their shoeboxes with about an inch, to maybe 1.5" of space between the surface of the substrate and the rim of the box, this is likely to be the primary culprit for persistent blobs.

There should be zero headroom in a PE set up for small containers:



Notice the lack of head space.

The same applies to full size monos but without consideration to headspace, obviously. Thickness combined with compression wins the game, should you still experience blobs you'll need to dial that in.

The thickness of the top layer combined with the level/compression of the c/v is the winning combo, without both of these conditions met you're more likely to experience some small percentage of remaining blobs.

PE is a thirsty bitch that requires a suitable water reservoir to fatten up those dicks, the more substrate you have, the greater the reservoir to draw from.

Skimping on substrate = skimping on access to water.

Skimping on top layer = blobs

My spawn ratio is 1:6 spawn to substrate for this reason. It's the perfect balance between water and supplementation without loss of yield, in fact it allows for an increase in yield when spawning PE to a 1:4 due to the increased water reservoir.
The more experienced PE cultivators all know that PE benefits from dumping excess water on the substrate (or floating a sub) to beef up the final weight when using a standard recipe....why dump in after the fact when you can add that water to the starting materials by increasing the amount of substrate.

Increases substrate volume not only increases the water reservoir required to fatten up your flush, it also serves to maintain conditions at substrate surface level along with overall humidity within the fruiting chamber; even if you see a small amount of surface drying near the hole you know that your top layer is ~1.5" thick so any drying of the surface near the hole is superficial.

I use Pasty' ez dial as apposed to the standard hole configuration which limits surface drying to begin with.


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (12/08/21 10:35 AM)


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InvisibleYeatster
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27573489 - 12/08/21 10:41 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

That was a super informative and easy to read post. Thanks


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Invisible897
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27573549 - 12/08/21 11:43 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks p9!

With my clone test tubs coming up I'm going to follow the 1:6 ratio, filled shoebox and extra thick compressed pseudocasing to the letter.

I've got one clone in particular I'm excited to see put to this method.


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