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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 47
#27426583 - 08/13/21 09:27 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Top Layer/Pseudo Casing **This method is for clean/healthy spawn only, do not attempt to add questionable spawn to an increased volume of substrate/water.**In my quest for efficient time and materials management I've discovered that applying a thick top layer of at least 1 inch to PE (preferably1.5-2 inches) prevents blobs and promotes an even pinset, and at least a 1 inch compressed layer for all other varieties.
Thickness and compression of the substrate are both equally important as the compression and leveling of the substrate creates a boundary between top layer and substrate as mentioned below:Mushrooms are ~90-92% water by weight, because of this fact mushrooms benefit from having access to as much water as possible without exceedingthe limits of field capacity, so to increase available h20, you must increase substrate; by increasing the volume of substrate in my tubs and shoeboxes, combined with a thick compressed top layer I've managed to maximize the biological efficiency of my cultures. Notes: I do not know what the upper limits of substrate depth are before one begins to experience problems. Canna coir is the brand of coir that I use, it comes as two stamped lobes joined in the middle. Mono-TubMy substrate recipe for full mono: 1 brick (canna lobe)= ~900 grams 3 liters verm 5 liters water = 5000 grams (The wet weight of your first flush harvest will later be compared to the weight of your initial water input) From this mix use 12 liters of CV (coir & vermiculite) for substrate (marked and measured in and by a 5gal bucket): Note: These buckets were only used for this round of tubs as these orange tubs were repurposed as grain prep tubs. Spawn 1x 4lb spawn bag or 4 myco quarts of spawn to the 12L base, mix thoroughly; after compression/leveling add the remainder of the C/V mix as the top layer (~6L), compress/level again. With this method I reliably pull between 5 and 8oz dry first flush from a 66qt EzDial mono. I consider a 4oz pull near failure, but not quite. For reference: My last batch of substrate came out to 18L of expanded substrate when using 1 lobe weighed @ 905gr of coir combined with 3 liters of vermiculite. So, 12L of substrate and 6L of top layer. 18 liters of substrate to quarts (4 myco-quarts) which is a 1:6 spawn to substrate ratio, the same as my shoeboxes. Here's how I prep my sub: ShoeboxStandard shoeboxes do not effectively mimic the environment of their larger cousin, the mono-tub. Standard shoeboxes are notorious for being difficult to maintain surface conditions due to drying out of the substrate. When filling a shoebox completely you're essentially recreating a small cut out microcosm of the environment found in larger tubs, its like you've used a cookie cutter to punch out a portion of a larger substrate that was hydrated and spawned at the same ratios as larger substrates, doing this will aid in the maintenance of surface conditions and prevent drying while affording your culture the benefit of an increased volume of water to draw from while fruiting. Shoebox recipe: Same as above but portioned out to individual shoeboxes with: 1 quart of spawn 4 Liter or quarts of substrate 2 Liter or quarts of CV for top layer. 4x 6qt shoeboxes can fit into a 110qt tote: With both tubs and shoeboxes ensure that you level and compress with a trowel before applying the top layer, then level and compress again. A good clone should move between ~50%(2500gr) and ~70% (3500gr) of the water into the fruits. This is achieved by selecting the right clones. My reasoning: 1. The increased volume of substrate acts as a reservoir for fruits to draw from; 2. To aid in the maintenance of surface conditions; 3. The extra thick top layer prevents PE blobs specifically, but helps for an even pinset for all varieties. Peat based casing layers and coir psuedo-casings both promote even pinning by fostering an environment sutable to knot formation, and by extension help to maintain surface conditions. Side by side comparison illustrating the effect of the water reservoir on a flush: Quote:
SirPsycho said: Avery's Albino cubensis, same culture, same amount of spawn, different amounts of sub. 4:1,3:1,2:1
Cube fruit bodies are 90+% water, larger substrates hold exponentially greater amounts of water for the flush to draw from.
Compression of the substrate before adding a top layer creates a boundary, I've noticed that the mycelium will colonize beneath that boundary evenly before it attempts to penetrate the top layer. The mycelium then moves into the top layer evenly and globaly.
The combination of thickness of the top layer and compression prevents blobs, for some reason. This has been my experience and it has caused me to abandon the use of casing layers for PE altogether.
An example of this with a shoebox:
I've deleted my grow pics, they will be added as they become available.
A note on clone selection:
Quote:
MycoWeek said: what is your process of picking a good culture? isolate right from MS? and how many isolate do you grow out before you pick the culture to run with?
I pick cultures based upon 4 criteria:
1. Efficient transportation of h20 into fruits measured by first flush alone:
Don't settle for less than 40% (2000gr) of your starting water in grams moved into the fruits, the higher the % of utilized water converted into fruits, the better.
Aim for 70%+, as outlined in the OP, don't settle for less than 2000 wet grams of fruit(40%), even better would be 70% which is 3500 wet grams(first flush);
2. Efficient utilization of substrate surface area:
Pins should form across every square inch of available surface area;
3. Solid stipes:
Don't fuck with hollow clones, hollow stipes can be a product of environmental factors such as temperature, however starting off by selecting a hollow stipe would not be a great start;
4. Potency:
This is very important, you don't want a Bently with a k car chassis.
These are all genetic traits that can be selected for when choosing clones.
•Choose clones that readily cluster;
•That have dense solid stipes;
• That contain a significant amount of water, and pin evenly across the entire surface of the substrate;
• That are potent.
People often have clones that check some of these boxes but not all, it's a shame to see pictures of a dense/even canopy of hollow stipes,pretty to look at but that's about it. Averys albino come to mind.
I won't keep a clone that doesn't have all of these attributes, the only way to achieve it is through careful selection, testing the clone, and detailed labeling. This is why people like PE in particular, it's on average pretty dense, pins well, holds lots of water and will often melt your face.
This can be done with any variety though, you just have to be very picky and have high standards. Like I said earlier:
•be absolutely ruthless with your grain spawn, if it isn't 100% it's fucking garbage;
•If your clone looks pretty in pics but the stipes are hollow, garbage;
•If it doesn't cluster like a psychedelic kraken...garbage,etc.
You can stabilize traits within your culture through selfing. Chose clones that tick all of the boxes:
Clone desired traits then grow out the clone, when the flush comes in select fruits that carry those traits for printing/swabbing;
Grow out those spores, select fruits to clone that most closely resemble your desired traits and repeat that process until your cloned traits become a stable lineage.
Take pics to use in your notes, take detailed notes, label correctly and associate those clones with a picture because you'll quickly forget wtf you're dealing with soon enough.
Keep your conditions stable or you'll be promoting variations in cap colour, stipe density, etc.
Results from other members:
Quote:
Mr.Hyde said: I was getting shitty blobby pinsets trying to grow PE out of polytube in my greenhouse. So I made a few unicorn bags with thick coir top layers.
Quote:
Mr.Hyde
Quote:
Lostkeys
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Lostkeys said: Natalensis done with p9's pseudo top layer, 2" compressed.
Quote:
stubb
Quote:
mushboy
Compressed sub and a decent top layer also firmly compressed. No blobs. No side pins
...like ever.
Quote:
fahtster said: The 16qt is about to get chopped.. gotta say this is a really nice weapon to have in the arsenal. Kudos, pal!
Faht
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seldom seen
April Fool
Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 1,036
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#27426587 - 08/13/21 09:32 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Awesome write up as usual...I've seen you mention that thick top layer for PE and am definitely trying that on my next tub as opposed to standard peat based casing.
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: seldom seen] 3
#27426600 - 08/13/21 09:41 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I ran a lot of pe tubs at one point and the thought of pasteurizing that much casing was unthinkable.
I started with a regular/loose fluffy top layer and got blobs. Then I graduated up to thicker and thicker top layers, then adding compression, I was seeing less and less blobs until eventually I wasn't getting blobs at all.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (08/13/21 09:51 AM)
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seldom seen
April Fool
Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 1,036
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 4
#27426607 - 08/13/21 09:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I respect your approach and the amount of work you put in man, that one's had my interest piqued for some time now.
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Mitch
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 3
#27426631 - 08/13/21 10:05 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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For sure trying this on my next tub. Never thought about doing a thicker casing layer for PE strains but this makes a lot of sense. Thanks p9! Solid as always
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Mitch] 1
#27426658 - 08/13/21 10:32 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good luck, post back here when you get results.
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TheBoJim
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 2
#27426781 - 08/13/21 12:12 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I purchased the leveling tool from your video yesterday
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: TheBoJim] 4
#27426796 - 08/13/21 12:22 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Worth it's weight in gold. Level + compression = success.
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Eclipse3130
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 4
#27426856 - 08/13/21 01:15 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Interesting find. In my experience blobs are primarily genetic, secondary factors PE seem to be very sensitive to proper surface conditions and temp. I have a PE that fruits like a normal cube like clockwork with a 1/4inch covering for the surface grain at spawn, but I've also ran PE that blob out in the same conditions.
Thick casing at spawn could potentially aide you in maintaining surface conditions, which could aide you in getting a better pinset, but hasn't seemed to be worth it in general for me, especially if compressing the coir cake, I've had tubs stall from doing that as it starves it for small pockets of air and could shave off a couple days of colonization in its own right, pair that with a thick casing layer that isn't being colonized immediately it may add even more time to finish comparatively, when in my opinion you should focus on dialing in your tub to your environment to produce these conditions on its own without having to sacrifice colonization time. I will gladly try an extra thick top layer and see what happens if I ever run a PE that likes to blob.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Eclipse3130] 9
#27426857 - 08/13/21 01:16 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've ran dozens of tubs this way without issue, or I wouldn't have posted it.
I've noticed that you like to attend to my threads by stating the exact opposite of whatever I've posted.
My methods are tested before presenting to the community. There are no delays in colonization, no issues whatsoever.
My tubs are dialed af, my flushes leave no room for subsequent flushes and produce a heavy single flush return.
Don't come in here with unsubstantiated claims, I've done the leg work to insure what I'm saying is correct and repeatable before I post.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (08/13/21 01:22 PM)
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht
Registered: 06/17/06
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#27426866 - 08/13/21 01:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hear hear!
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Eclipse3130
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#27426869 - 08/13/21 01:26 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: I've ran dozens of tubs this way without issue, or I wouldn't have posted it.
I've noticed that you like to attend to my threads by stating the exact opposite of whatever I've posted.
My methods are tested before presenting to the community. There are no delays in colonization, no issues whatsoever.
My tubs are dialed af, my flushes leave no room for subsequent flushes and produce a heavy single flush return.
I already knew you were going to respond like that, because you feel like I'm out to get you or something, I'm simply stating my experience, which happens to be opposite of yours I don't respond to intentionally disagree with you on purpose, it's a difference in experience and hopes to find middle ground. I have noticed slower colonization time and even tubs that stall from compressing the substrate too hard comparatively, that's why I specifically don't do it. If you stated yourself the thick casing layer doesn't start to get colonized until the bottom one is near finished doesn't that mean it's slower? For the simple fact it's not even colonization
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Eclipse3130] 2
#27426882 - 08/13/21 01:31 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, it's 6 of one, half dozen of the other. It takes the same amount of time except this way has more even and reliable growth throughout the top layer.
There is more substrate in this recipe than you likely have in yours so this recipe will take longer to colonize than yours for that reason.
I am meticulous by nature, I have repeated this process dozens of times, as stated above; so if your anecdotal experience with whatever method you use doesn't match mine, then by definition it isn't my method, it's your method, which you've cleary either executed poorly, or failed to do correctly which may still be 6 of one, half dozen of the other
I dont believe that you're out to get me, but you appear to be a contrarian.
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Eclipse3130
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#27426901 - 08/13/21 01:46 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I love your contribution and passion for mycology, I just have difference in experience it's not meant any ill will we are all here learning together.
I don't believe it's contrarious to think compacting your substrate for cubes is a benefit. One quick shroomery search and many TCs agree https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20227503
I'm glad it works for you, but I would also debate side by side with the same substrate not packed would colonize quicker, unless you aren't compacting it all that hard then I'd debate it doesn't make any difference anyway rather the top layer that does the magic
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Yeatster
OTD Chef
Registered: 08/07/21
Posts: 8,097
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Eclipse3130] 2
#27426905 - 08/13/21 01:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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In my recent return to the Shroomery, I've noticed you, more than any, putting in some super valuable videos/info. I will be giving cult another go real soon here and I'm taking lots of notes from you P9. Thank you!
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Eclipse3130] 3
#27426913 - 08/13/21 01:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I dont deal with whatever other people speculate about, I test things real time.
I've ran 20 plus tubs at once with this method and I can tell you with absolute certainty that my tubs were truly set and forget. Not a single blob, no patching, no misting, nothing.
I honestly don't care in you're the reincarnation of Haile Selassie, have been a TC since before time began, are a mod, and a special forces ninja. It is what it is, either test it and put me to shame or don't.
This is getting off topic, so if you have anything of actual value to add here then feel free.
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TheBoJim
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#27426919 - 08/13/21 02:02 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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How hard is the sub pressed down? From the latest shoebox video it looked like very little pressure. Just enough to level it down.
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: TheBoJim] 3
#27426929 - 08/13/21 02:06 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not squeezing water out of it, it is a firm press however.
Play with it and see how things go, everything is a matter of dialing. You could probably get away with a lot here, so work with it if you're interested and see where it takes you.
It's a bit too subjective to tell you what amount of pressure I use, if I had to guess, perhaps 3lbs of Downward pressure. Perhaps I'll find a scale to test this on.
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#27426944 - 08/13/21 02:16 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Noice
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9 [Re: Eclipse3130] 1
#27426947 - 08/13/21 02:19 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Even if it did colonize quicker, is this the standard by which you judge your tubs?
If what I'm saying is true and you get an even pinset blob free, but it takes a tad longer to colonize, would you rather spend your time pasteurizing?
That's all I have to say about that.
:forestgumpmeme:
Just go do it.
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