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 pinehurst
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 Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽  [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426429 - 08/13/21 07:15 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said:
The problem isn't temperature, submerging your jars is going to overcook your grains. Have you ever added a bit too much water and watched what it did to the bottom of your jars?
Adding that much water is just less efficient/unnecessary. Steam should still penetrate the inside of the jars where it matters.
So just add the 3qts and try again? If I'm understanding you correctly, by adding too much water, I don't allow enough stream to form and that's why the job doesn't get done?
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 QM33
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426430 - 08/13/21 07:18 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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You say penetrate the insided... but does it?
I mean reguarly canned food is completely sealed, a when sterilizing LC would that fuck shit up?
And why would boiling water over cook it more than steam?
I use bags and the last run i did my bag on the bottom was nearly completelt submered to the point where i was worried water was gping to run it in, cook fine.
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Stipe-n Cap 
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: pinehurst]
#27426434 - 08/13/21 07:24 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes.
Use spacers under your trivet, something that doesn't rust like plastic lids; add 3 full quarts of water (it's in the manual); vent for 10-15 mins; cycle for 2 hours at a min of 15 psi (I cycle around 18-20) this is dependent upon elevation, higher elevations require higher pressure to insure proper sterilization. I think the pc comes with an elevation chart, but I can't remember.
@qm33
Anytime I have submerged grains they burst and become mushy...and yes the steam penetrates into your jars, if this wasn't the case you wouldn't be able to sterilize anything.
Not sure what you're saying but LC is liquid, liquid is conductive so there's no issue transferring energy.
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Roger Clemency
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: QM33]
#27426439 - 08/13/21 07:27 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah Pinehurst, 3 qts water and have 3 quarters taped to the top of your weight. That will allow you to get to 17-18+ psi without tons of steam coming out.
As a reference, I keep my stove on 10 (max) until pressure is around 13-14 then move it down to 2+- for the rest of the cycle and that holds a steady 17.5-18 psi. One time just play with the heat level and slowly go down down down until you find the spot where pressure starts to drop and remember it.
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QM33
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426448 - 08/13/21 07:38 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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So how does steam penatrate and sterilize a regular cannin jar?
I figured the moisture content inside your jar or whatever would generate enough steam inside the vessel, or even moisture inside of a grain as an example would provide enough "steam" to cleanse itself.
And if steam was penatrating you LC jars i feel like your original water content would be fucked up.
I have to submerge grains in my pc, kind of what natedognow does, fills the water half way up the first bag row in his tutorial, ive had such a problem running out of water i did my last runs with like a gallon of water, came out fine.
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Stipe-n Cap
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: QM33]
#27426467 - 08/13/21 07:50 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
So how does steam penatrate and sterilize a regular cannin jar?
It doesn't.
Quote:
I figured the moisture content inside your jar or whatever would generate enough steam inside the vessel, or even moisture inside of a grain as an example would provide enough "steam" to cleanse itself.
No, it's the steam generated by the pc that sterilizes your media.
Quote:
And if steam was penatrating you LC jars i feel like your original water content would be fucked up.
Steam isn't going to change your water content. With liquid the energy is being transferred via conduction.
Quote:
I have to submerge grains in my pc, kind of what natedognow does, fills the water half way up the first bag row in his tutorial, ive had such a problem running out of water i did my last runs with like a gallon of water, came out fine.
Yes, of course. You would run out of water if you didn't because you run bags for 3.5 or more hours. This is fine.
You can sterilize jars if they're submerged it's just not necessary. Let the steam do it's job, that's what it's for.
Steam penetrates the gaps between the grains in your jars, it carries a great deal of energy, it also efficiently permeates the porous/irregular surface area of your grains which facilitates sterilization.
It's the entire reason why steam is used to begin with, the mechanism is slightly different with liquid. The conductivity of water makes for quick and efficient transfer of energy.
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QM33
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426488 - 08/13/21 08:07 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not trying to nit pick here. Just trying to come to a full understanding.
If steam penetrated the jars, or even bags for that matter, wouldnt core temp rise alot fater than it does? I never used a probe, but you have right?
I just dont see how much difference it wpuld make between the steam entering the jard compared to convection heat passing from the outside of the jar inwards?
If your pressure cooker is full of steam under 15psi the whole cookwr is at 249f, so eventually evwrything inside it will be that temperatute, regarless of steam penetration..?
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: QM33]
#27426494 - 08/13/21 08:15 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, everything will reach the same temperature providing that you purge all of the cold pockets from your cooker, otherwise no, no it won't.
What is it that you're getting at here? I really don't understand where this is going. Is it that you believe that the filters on your jars represent a barrier that prevents steam from entering your jar?
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QM33
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426509 - 08/13/21 08:29 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I mean i guess so yes. Maybe it would penwtrate to some extent, but i figure it wpuld equilibriate the pressure in the canner and the containers at some point
and i just dont understand how it work, as wrll as its necessity also like i said i figjred it might have potential to fuck up your water content.
I mean if you had steam coming and going through your jars i assume it wpuld mess up your content because the steam would either be dragging watwr in or taking it out, esspecially if it was passing through grains hitting pockets slowing flow.
And how would you know you purged all the pockets in your grain, jars esspecially.
And how does pressure work on a jar with just one hole... its either in or out right? Or even two... at a certain point the jar would be conpletely pressurized, like a mentioned before, and how wpuld steam even enter it at that point?
I guess my point is, and like you seemed to have agreed, if your vessel is 249, the contents will be to. And how much of a role steam penetration plays, well ide be curiious to some examples.
Maybe you know of some, ide figure theres a diagram of sorts demonstrating this...something?
And whats stopping your grains from producing steam from the inside, whch under pressure, should be expelled from the jar..?
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: QM33]
#27426529 - 08/13/21 08:50 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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https://www.pharmaguideline.com/2011/01/autoclave-validation.html?m=1
Just read up on how steam sterilization works. Steam penetration is the mechanism, no it doesn't pressurize jars, they have holes. No it doesn't throw off water content.
Let's not derail this thread further.
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QM33
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426562 - 08/13/21 09:11 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Im pretty sure i understand how steam sterilization works and only on the shroomery have i heard people refer to penetration in jars and bags.
The study you linked is just for tools and liquid media anyway.
And my main question for what you posted is, did they put all those instruments and clothing into a container before putting it into the autoclave? Doesnt seem like it.
So of course in that case, talking tools and clothese, not media, sure penetration. How about an example of a substrate being directly exposed to steam, the media bottles and tubes theyre using in that study probably dont even have a GE port.
Call it derailed if you want, i dont see the point of making a new thread or pming you. Stupid question? My bad
And thwyre talking about vaccuume pulses with their autoclave anyway, whatever the hell that is
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Lostkeys
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426585 - 08/13/21 09:30 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said:
Let's not derail this thread further.
I'm actually learning a lot from this thread...
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
Loc: Canada
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: QM33]
#27426616 - 08/13/21 09:53 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Steam penetrates the jars, whether or not steam will penetrate all of your densely packed bags, of this I am not completely sure.
I've answered to the best of my abilities at this point, I'll leave it to others to explain further.
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QM33
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426646 - 08/13/21 10:21 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I hope you know i appreciate your efforts ALOT! And josex and all the other dudes running tests. Theres better info on this site, vecauze of guys like you, than most places on the internet. Thank you.
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Stipe-n Cap
Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,749
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: QM33]
#27426647 - 08/13/21 10:23 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Any time, brother.
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pinehurst
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27426705 - 08/13/21 11:15 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said:
Any time, brother.
Yeah thank you for the insight. I'm going to rerun my grain with this advice and check the air valve
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Abyssinian
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: pinehurst]
#27426719 - 08/13/21 11:26 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also, make sure you have that pop-up lock thingie on the presto tightened. If it comes unscrewed a bit it can let out a lot of extra steam
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Festivusmiracle
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Re: Why do I keep growing oats‽‽ [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27427073 - 08/13/21 04:35 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said:
High energy steam sterilizes your grains, don't submerge your bottles in water.
People do this with agar though I'm not sure why, they claim it's to prevent boil over. I've never once had agar boil over.
I'm sure it's as much of a myth as caramelization.
I use the recommended 3 quarts of water for my presto, this brings the water to just a hair over my trivet with spacers underneath and run for 2 hours and vent for 15 with plenty of water remaining.
I was having boil over problems at first for sure. I could see the agar in the PC water and was losing volume from the media bottles. I tried adding extra water to the PC and it did not seem to help. That was however when I was doing 400ml in a 500ml media bottle. I got more bottles and now don’t fill them over half way and haven’t had an issue since.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear
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Only thing I have to add is two 1/4 inch holes is to much. I'd bet everything else being good your grains are drying out before you spawn them, which can leave weak mycelium that's susceptible to contamination.
I get away with a tiny ass hole in the dark plastic ball lids and one of those little syringe filters. We shake the jars anyway and unless your oats are mush (which they might be reading through this) they shouldn't be going anaerobic.
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Brian Jones
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If you are losing that much water I think something is wrong with the seal on your PC. I had this problem and the gasket seemed OK and I tried oiling it, but no luck. I was still running dry with 4 quarts of water. I bought another PC and there is plenty of water left after 2 hours starting with 3 quarts.
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