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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Define 'love' pls, kthxbye
    #2741673 - 05/28/04 03:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

How do you people define the word 'love'?

I used to think that this word had a fairly straightforward and universal meaning, but life experience has shown me otherwise. Here is how I define love:

When the Romans were nailing Jesus's hands and feet to the cross, and he asked God to forgive them, that was an act of love. When a man throws himself in front of a bus to save his daughter, killing himself in the process, that is an act of love. When a battered woman refuses to press charges against her abusive husband, that is an act of love (though stupid and misguided).

I define love as 'unconditional positive regard'. Unconditional, as in, not being bound by the conditions of space and time, among other things. That means if I truly love you today, I will love you tommorow and every day after that as well. If you move away, I will still love you. If you stab me in the back and sleep with my best friend, I will still love you.

This is what love means to me. Caring for another in the same way you care for yourself. Thats why love isnt always pretty. It can be painful. It can involve self-sacrifice of the ultimate degree.

But I've met a lot of people in my life that do not share this definition of love; indeed, they think its unhealthy. They call me things like 'stalker' and 'obsessive'. Or they say that my 'standards are too high' or my 'expectations are unrealistic'. These are the people that say they love someone, but shy away from commitment. They say things like: "Oh, you should just enjoy relationships while they last, but never expect them to last forever." They say shit like, "Oh, I WAS in love with you, but not anymore."

I think this is a consequence of our disposable, fast food society. People treat eachother like cars; you drive one for awhile, then you trade it in. I just find it hard to fathom that someone would treat a person the same way they treat an inanimate object. I think that this attitude is directly related to the spiritual defecit in the general population.

Real love isn't physical, social, or mental. Real love is spiritual. I think the fact that most people are incapable of true love is directly related to the fact that most people simply do not possess a spiritual dimension. Fuck, most people dont even possess a mental dimension, they are just animated sacks of flesh, playing out pre-programmed lives.

Anyway, how do you define love? Is love intrinsically permenant and unconditional? And if it isnt, what then, is the difference between love and infatuation?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2741698 - 05/28/04 03:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Love is a process, not a state of mind. I would disagree with the examples you gave of love... they may be acts done out of love, but no more.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: Seuss]
    #2741724 - 05/28/04 03:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

thats exactly what I said: "ACT of love."

no, I wouldnt say that you have to throw yourself in front of a car to be in love with someone.  'act of' does not mean 'definition of' :tongue:

the definition of love I gave is quite simple:  unconditional positive regard.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


Edited by DoctorJ (05/28/04 03:49 PM)


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2741753 - 05/28/04 03:57 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I used to think spiritual love was a different kind than that felt between human beings, but it is the same. The is only one love.

Desire between humans is often confused and mistaken for love. That which you feel for your friends and mother is love. It is what bonds you together with your girlfriend behind the desire, that is love.

If emotional capacity is a glass then love is a pint of water. Desire is a murky, smokey, almost empty container. What a shame that we should be drawn to another through desire when love is so much more forfilling and real.


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Offlinepeleg
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #2741800 - 05/28/04 04:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Love is patient, love is kind, love does not seek it's own intrest but that of another, love is merciful, love belives ALL things hopes ALL things and endures ALL things, love is understanding and compassinote, no greater love is this than when a man lays down his own life for another....


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"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #2741808 - 05/28/04 04:15 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

A cyncial definition would be the biological need to reproduce. Falling in love with someone is in essence you deciding that certain factors of them are desirable enough to pass down genetically to your descendents. Basically, it is a form of internally selective evolution.

Not that this is necessarily my view on the matter :smile:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: Seuss]
    #2741817 - 05/28/04 04:17 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Love is a process, not a state of mind




I would appreciate it if you eloborated on this a bit. What are the key components of this process? What denotes its beginning and end? Does it have an end?

Or are you simply saying that love should only be used as a verb, and never a noun?


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Anonymous

Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2741832 - 05/28/04 04:22 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: deff]
    #2741833 - 05/28/04 04:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
A cyncial definition would be the biological need to reproduce. Falling in love with someone is in essence you deciding that certain factors of them are desirable enough to pass down genetically to your descendents. Basically, it is a form of internally selective evolution.






that would be an explanation of the attractive mechanism in our brains from an evolutionary psychology POV, but I dont think it says anything about 'love'. 

'love' and 'attraction' are two different words, with two different meanings.  Telling someone you love them will have a different effect on them than telling them you are attracted to them because your genetically inherent brain chemistry has indicated to you that they would be good genetic stock for your seed.  Hmmm, maybe I should try that line sometime :lol:


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OfflineEgoTripping
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2741843 - 05/28/04 04:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Over the past few years, I've progressively began to become more spiritual in nature. Between my studies, my drug use (shrooms), and my increasing desire for music, I realized a common bond between everything that exists, love.

I ask, what is love, because I don't think anybody truly understands the profound implications of this emotion...or any emotion for that matter. I think I finally realized what "love" really is, though. Love is the moment, and the moment is God. Anytime you think about your significant other, hear a beautiful song, gaze into your lovers' eyes, play an instrument, or engage in other acts that cause you to forget about the past and future, you are in the moment. If you're in the moment, you're experiencing love. Since the eternal moment could be defined as God, then so can love, and hence, God = Love.

This simple idea has consumed my life...shrooms were definately the most compelling evidence for this idea, when I was sitting on my couch, staring slack-jawed at my ceiling and giggling at the beautiful simplicity of it all. Nothing mattered outside that immediate moment because I was 100% immersed in love. I think this is also why shrooms make music so profound and moving, we're experiencing it exactly how it SHOULD be experienced.

Love is the only reason we exist. We were intended to spread love to one another, and perform acts for one another out of the love we have for each other. Sadly, we've lost our path, but I feel we'll find it soon, but not before we learn a hard lesson first.

So in short, remember this anytime you're in need for some love:

music = the moment = love = god.


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Anonymous

Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2741885 - 05/28/04 04:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

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InvisibleTheDude
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2741917 - 05/28/04 04:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i truly believe love is subjective, not a universal 'emotion'. everybody loves different things for different reasons (to different degrees) and the second you try to classify this emotion you destroy it. love is freedom, love has no boundaries so IMO, you should stop looking for boundaries to define it. just sit back and see where it takes you.

however you do have a point, love and desire are easily confused. i agree that the fact most people equate desire to love as a biproduct of our quick-fix society: nobody wants to work to find/feel true love for themselves. i guess the problem is people lack compassion for one another (or unconditional love as you might put it) because each individual is too wrapped up in their own pursuits to care about the struggles of others. people are too afraid to let go, too afraid embrace the greatest gift we have on this planet: eachother.


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: TheDude]
    #2741933 - 05/28/04 05:01 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

One could argue however that the 'love' is false and is just a justifiable way of biasly thinking there is more to relationships than biological necessities. For me personally, I've yet to experience true "love" as it is described by many, so I cannot offer any true opinion on the matter.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: ]
    #2741936 - 05/28/04 05:01 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Let me ask you a question. Are you still in love with all the women you said "I love you" to? You must be. According to your definition of love, it is unconditional. No matter how they feel about you now, you must still be utterly in love with them.





Indeed I am still in love with them, painful as that is.  I dont feel this way about  every ex-gf I've ever had, mind you, but every single one I've told that I loved got a lifetime subscription.  I don't bullshit with that word like most people do. 

These days I dont say 'I love you' anymore to girls unless I think they are capable of holding up their end of the bargain, which is almost never.  Gets me in trouble a lot :smile:  I hate it when a girl says she loves me after having known me like less than a month.  Then she expects me to parrot her lie.  Fuck that. 

anyway, if you were hoping to catch me in a self-contradiction, you have failed. 

Quote:

  There cannot be true love where there is attachment.





hmmm.  Sounds like a new-age excuse for promiscuity to me.  What logic is that statement based on?  How does that follow? 

here's the logic behind my definition of love:  When we say we 'love' someone, the implication is that this is different from saying that we 'like' or 'want' them.  How is it different?  'Like' and 'want' are conditional, 'love' is not. 

Quote:

Just because you love someone, doesn't mean you have to take abuse, and other negatives along for the ride. You can still love someone, and be like "Hey, sorry. I can't stay in this relationship.".





yes, abusive relationships are a problem for my theory.  I really do feel for those women on COPS sometimes, I really do.  I understand their inner struggle, the struggle between love and the pain it can cause. 

But I never get into abusive relationships anymore.  Because I don't give my heart to another person unless I know them completely, inside and out, dark side as well as light.  I'll see the abusive shit way before I decide to love the person, and high tail it outta there.  It did take a lot of mistakes to gain this wisdom, though.  And there are a few girls out there with my love that probably don't deserve it, but its been awhile since their roster has been added to. 

Near as I can tell, its a bad mistake to give your bona fide love to someone who can't give you theirs.  These relationships are doomed to failure, and create a lot of pain, especially for the person who was bona fide in their love.  The other person usually doesnt give a damn.  But the point is, a loving relationship cant survive if the feeling isnt mutual.

Still though, lets take your statement to its extreme implication.  I think it will make the necessity for a drawn line more obvious:

How petty, superficial, and downright hypocritical is it for someone to tell you they love you, but then dump you over something material and ultimately meaningless?  I mean, abuse is one thing, but where do you draw the line?  What if its "Hey sorry, I love you and all, but all my friend's boyfriends have nicer cars than you and I really think I'm cheating myself here.  CYA"  Would you say that is right? 

I mean the point I'm trying to make here is that relationships arent all flowers and sunshine.  There's gonna be hardships, there's gonna be things you dont like about your partner.  Why does everyonme expect their partner to be perfect?  NO ONE IS PERFECT!!!  To a certain extant, you just have to take the good with the bad, otherwise you are just running away from your own imperfection. 

Quote:

Trust me, if your girlfriends would have been around long enough, sooner or later your meticulous nature would have you pointing out things about them that make them unworthy to date you.




yes, in real life I act exactly the same as I do on this internet board.  I walk up to chix and go "j00r m0m!!!  0wn3d!!!!"  :rolleyes:

please refrain from making assumptions about my personality based on the tiny fraction of my being which I expend to create this completely fictitious digital persona. 

Quote:

Just like anger and hate can fluctuate from day to day, moment to moment, so can love. You can love someone and not be "in love" with them. I firmly believe that you can be "in love" and down the road, still love the person, but not be in love.





hmmm, I guess I dont think of love as an emotion.  It entails emotions, but it is not an emotion itself. 

what does 'in love' mean to you?  I mean, what differentiates it from just plain ol' 'love'?  Sexual Attraction?  Please tell me there is more to your definition of love than that. 

Quote:

There is no need to define love




there is obviously a need to have a universal definition of words, otherwise there will be miscommunication.  Thats the whole point of having a language in the first place, sweetheart :smirk:

I think that the word love is obviously too ambiguously defined by our society, because different people mean different things when they say it.


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OfflineEgoTripping
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: ]
    #2741952 - 05/28/04 05:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SpringChickita said:
:thumbup:


:heart:




Good to see I made sense to someone as well.  :mushroom2:  :heart:


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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2742009 - 05/28/04 05:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2742049 - 05/28/04 05:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Love could also be the biological impulse to be true to only one partner and therefore to live in a family unit like we have for a long time. When people don't have this attractive love force, they often will be dishonest with their relationships.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: ]
    #2742124 - 05/28/04 06:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If you love these women unconditionally, you should be ECSTATIC that they are happy




Actually, almost all of them are unhappy, and will probably never figure out why, because their priorities in life are all out of whack.  Some social influence has brainwashed them to the point where they don't even know how to make themselves happy.  They keep chasing after social conquest and material wealth because they are trying to fill this hole inside that can only be filled with love.  And yet they repeatedly turn down love in favor of petty materialism and socio-political power.  I feel very sorry for them. 

Of all my loves, there is one girl who has found happiness with a good friend of mine.  I don't have a problem with that, although it is sometimes hard for me to see them together.  But I dont have a problem with him at all.  We hang out all the time.  I'm not really pissed of with her as a person, but I do still think she shouldn't have told me she loved me unless she meant it :smile:

Quote:

Then why the anger? Why the bitterness? Who is it directed toward?





Well, the bitterness comes from giving more of myself to another person than they have given to me.  It doesnt keep me from loving them, but it does cause the pain of feeling unappreciated, the 'Jesus pain' as I like to call it :smile:  Its not just my pain I feel, but theirs as well.  A lot of people have pain that they insulate themselves from and dont allow themselves to feel.  But I can feel it.  Its the pain of having to deal with the consequences of a stupid decision, like rejecting the love of someone who only wants the best for you.  It is the same pain of a toddler who drinks paint because his mother told him not to. 

love is so rare and fragile, the fact that someone could just throw it away over nothing...  just astounds me sometimes.  If I'm in a relationship, love is the point of no return for me.  Any hardship that comes up after that, I think "we can work through this, our love can overcome this."  I dont think: "Oh, this isnt working out, the relationship is getting hard now and I'm gonna wuss out."  That attitude is repugnant to me.  Its the same attitude of a posuer rich kid that buys a guitar and throws it away a month later because he can't shred like Hendrix right away.  Love takes patience and understanding, and something in the human psyche makes most people incapable of either.  I say we find this part of the brain, and genetically engineer it out of existence :smile:

as far as where it is directed, I would say that it is directed squarely at that intangible psychological/socio-cultural influence that effects the probability of humans acting in this foolish way.  I think that a lot of people just arent educated well enough to love correctly, and our society perpetuates this.  I mean, its not like we get an instruction manual.  WE get a lot of media telling us what love is, but most of that is pure BS.  The picket fence and the knight in shining armour are fantasies which have made people believe that their lover should be perfect, and that love should solve all of their problems.  Our society perpetuates the sterotype that all successful relationships reach a point of perfection, and everything that happens after that point cant be summed up by saying: "They lived happily ever after..."  Have you ever seen an old couple fight?  Why dont they put that at the end of Cinderella?  :lol:

Again, it comes down to people's general inability or unwillingness to integrate the dark sides of things.  The unwillingness to realize that some things just suck and thats OK.  No life without death, no honey without bee stings.  But people dont want to accept the bad with the good.  They want to have their cake and eat it to.  They want to eat food without hunting, killing, or cooking it.  They want to drive cars without knowing how they work.  They want all play and no work.  And this effects the way that we relate to eachother as well.  Nobody wants an imperfect partner, thats why confidence matters so much in dating. 

anyway, i dont judge people for having flaws which I share possesion of as a human.  All I am saying is that we should identify and try to overcome these flaws, in the name of progress.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2742762 - 05/28/04 10:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sorry, but there's no such thing as true love between human beings.  I don't think that we are capable of loving unconditionally.  And loving unconditionally is what love is about, imo. 

I've made mistakes in the past, in love.  I take responsibility for getting involved in relationships in which I shouldn't have gotten involved.  So therefore I deserved the pain that followed when the relationships ended. 

I think it's about finding the right person.  How do you know when someone is the right person?  How can you guarantee against future hurt?  Everyone is screwed up, somehow.  Except for me, of course.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Define 'love' pls, kthxbye [Re: Frog]
    #2743267 - 05/29/04 01:14 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

yeah, everyone is screwed up, but it wouldnt be that big of a problem if we faced it instead of running from it... and eachother. Its precisely that attitude that love is a pipe dream that makes it a pipe dream. Our thoughts create our realities. Our expectations effect the outcome of events. People get disillusioned too easy, they give up on love, and they seal their own fate.

just my opinion of course


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