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Eclipse3130
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All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? 1
#27383787 - 07/12/21 12:07 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Or is it that alkaloid content is constantly being produced at a general rate, and the speed at which the fruit body matures is exponential to that of the alkaloid production resulting in a decrease of potency over its life cycle.
Do you think alkaloids are being produced at a general rate throughout the life of the mushroom, or does the mushroom stop producing early on in its fruit formation, resulting in an expansion of alkaloids spread out throughout the fruit? And why?
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Failboat
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Eclipse3130] 1
#27383819 - 07/12/21 01:30 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I thought it is a % of dry mass based on genetics. Primal says they're more potent by mass when harvested slightly immature. If the later theory is correct, then there is a percentage that the mushrooms would have to be more potent so as to yield a greater amount of alkaloids per sub if one were to sacrifice mush mass. My counter is that you will harvest more alkaloids, albeit distributed amongst a larger mass, if you wait till your fruits are mature. While you may have to consume more, you'll have produced the necessary mush. You can alway consume or extract from the fresh mush if you really want the potency to be up there.
Edited by Failboat (07/12/21 01:31 AM)
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Eclipse3130
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Failboat]
#27384101 - 07/12/21 08:44 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes that is my main question, not that it matters, it would just be interesting to know.
We know smaller mushrooms are more potent by weight than larger mushrooms. This means there is a large amount of alkaloids comparatively to mushroom flesh when they are young, and less when they are older.
The question is does alkaloid production stop when the mushroom is still young and forming, and then converts its energy into producing a more mass of fruit body, or is it a continuous process throughout the growth of the mushroom, but they get less potent as they get larger because exponentially the mushroom ends up growing faster in flesh weight than the rate of alkaloid production.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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multifractal
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#27384118 - 07/12/21 08:54 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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ok so I believe that alkaloids are produced during cell differentiation (ie mycelium becoming melanin-containing cap type cells for example) which does mostly occur during the formation of primordia and then continues to occur at a much lesser rate (those already differentiated cells replicate thus further differentiation of secondary mycelium is not as necessary, maybe not necessary at all) I would imagine as the mushroom matures. can anyone confirm this line of thinking? I'm also very interested in this answer.
Edited by multifractal (07/12/21 09:27 AM)
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Failboat
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#27384207 - 07/12/21 09:57 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eclipse3130 said: We know smaller mushrooms are more potent by weight than larger mushrooms.
Got any evidence? If nobody has data then WE don't KNOW shit.
I'm gonna need something more than someone else's "experience" or subjective opinion. Like I said there would be a curve on a graph correlated to the potency.
Some have said if it were all in the primordia nobody would wait for fruit development.
For example; if you harvest 20% less dry mass then the material you collect would have to be 25% more potent to equal the same alkaloid content. Like I said there is a function to figure this out. I don't know enough to do this math. As of now IMO more is more.
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verum subsequentis
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Failboat]
#27384225 - 07/12/21 10:13 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Grow the same clone in three tubs (same everythang... spawn amount sub mix.... amount of sub.... temp in room... ya know, everythang). Harvest one young, one normal and let one get super mature. Eat a weighed dose of each in the same conditions (hard to pull off). Then you'll "know".
As far as I know, it's generally believed that they are more potent by weight when harvested premature. I've found this to be apparently true but far from scientifically verifiable.
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Eclipse3130
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Failboat]
#27384338 - 07/12/21 11:32 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Mushrooms are less potent as they age, we know this for fact, which means smaller mushrooms are more potent. Stamets has come out saying this in a interview last month. Words are not facts, but stamets speaks a lot of factual information, you can test it yourself nowadays by sending a sample in of a large mushroom and a small one and I'm sure the smaller one will be more potent. It's well known through experience as well that aborts are much stronger by the gram.
In his words after the veil tears there is a loss in potency, and a loss in mass, the mushroom becomes less dense but more voluminous. The mycelial flesh is being spread out to thinner degrees as it absorbs more water resulting in a heavier mushroom but a less potent one.
People don't harvest pins because it results in no dry harvest weight, and they haven't reached a peak mass to potency ratio which is the golden time to harvest which is right before veils tear.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Failboat
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#27384354 - 07/12/21 11:41 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Eclipse, you're talking about wet in regards to Stamets. I'm talking about dry only.
Verum I concur with your subjective testing approach. Can the alkaloid content of dry mass be accurately measured by modern science these days? I forget where the boys in the legit labs are these days.
Edited by Failboat (07/12/21 12:06 PM)
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Eclipse3130
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Failboat]
#27384392 - 07/12/21 12:04 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes I'm speaking of dry as well.
There's only one testing place I know of Oakland Hyphae, they are doing little "psilocybin cups" which detects harmine and harmane and tests for psilocybin and psilocin levels by weight. It has a lot of interest so I'm sure it's fairly hard to get a test in nowadays as it's becoming more popular
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Failboat
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#27384420 - 07/12/21 12:23 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eclipse3130 said:
In his words after the veil tears there is a loss in potency, and a loss in mass, the mushroom becomes less dense but more voluminous. The mycelial flesh is being spread out to thinner degrees as it absorbs more water resulting in a heavier mushroom but a less potent one.
A loss in mass, but the result is heavier? Maybe an actual direct quote would be more accurate.
This doesn't negate my argument that once the water is removed that a more mature mushroom will have produced more alkaloid content than the same mushroom if immature, and that furthermore by harvesting immature fruits in order to maximize potency percentage by mass results in diminished alkaloid yield per substrate.
Sometimes more is more.
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Eclipse3130
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Failboat]
#27384463 - 07/12/21 12:59 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I agree a larger mushroom(10g dry) will have more overall alkaloids than 1g of the same genetic. But 10 of the 1g fruits will have more overall than the single 10g fruit.
For the larger fruit to be weaker by weight means either most of the alkaloid concentration was created early in the life cycle resulting in more alkaloid to flesh body percentage or at some point the exponential growth of the mushroom overtakes the rate at which alkaloids were being produced.
That's the question of this post, I don't know if a larger mushroom has more overall alkaloids than they do before the veils tear. If they become less potent, you could argue they don't if they are just increasing in mycelial weight. Or that they do, just the rate of alkaloid production is slowed down comparatively to the growth of the mushroom.
Either way, I don't think mushrooms should be harvested for consumption with open caps unless it's a personal preference. The quality is degraded in both potency and appearance, and is generally a sign of a grower just trying to maximize his harvest weight.
It's kind of like cannabis buds, nobody wants a huge yielding leafy lower thc bud because it produced more overall thc, that's stuff you turn into extraction material, or edibles it's not the highest quality to be consumed as is.
Plus, it's not a good practice for your own health, breathing in spores is a mild allergen and a deadly one for some people.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (07/12/21 01:09 PM)
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Failboat
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#27384480 - 07/12/21 01:16 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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If you have a full even canopy developing then should you harvest all the fruits at 1g instead of 10g you'll end up with 1/10 the mass. Do you really think they would be more than 10x the potency?
Open caps doesn't degrade potency. And it's degradation of appearance is purely opinion, mine is that they're perfectly normal.
Cannabis is very different, don't muddy the waters.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? (moved) [Re: Eclipse3130]
#27384489 - 07/12/21 01:24 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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This thread was moved from Mushroom Cultivation.
Reason: Better fit here.
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LeafyClark
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Failboat]
#27384493 - 07/12/21 01:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: If you have a full even canopy developing then should you harvest all the fruits at 1g instead of 10g you'll end up with 1/10 the mass. Do you really think they would be more than 10x the potency?
Open caps doesn't degrade potency. And it's degradation of appearance is purely opinion, mine is that they're perfectly normal.
Cannabis is very different, don't muddy the waters.
I'm on board with quirk, it just doesn't make sense that it could even possibly be worth it to harvest them all small, more is definitely more in my book, maybe letting them curl up and turn the tub black is past the point but not just letting the caps open. I would feel a little hurt harvesting one of my tubs that early, because my open cap mushrooms fuck me up plenty and you'd lose about a 1/4 of the weight
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Eclipse3130
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: Failboat] 1
#27384499 - 07/12/21 01:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: If you have a full even canopy developing then should you harvest all the fruits at 1g instead of 10g you'll end up with 1/10 the mass. Do you really think they would be more than 10x the potency?
Open caps doesn't degrade potency. And it's degradation of appearance is purely opinion, mine is that they're perfectly normal.
Cannabis is very different, don't muddy the waters.
No you shouldn't harvest the fruits at 1g instead of 10g before the veil tears is the golden ratio where potency is relative to quality. Mushrooms only gain about 20% extra weight after the veils tear, to me 20% extra weight is not worth having to breathe in spores when harvesting, to have a decrease in potency and for the fruits to look of low quality when dried, if it is your preference to have them look that way that's fine, it doesn't mean it's the majority.
I would bet if you put a poll up of what mushroom looks more appealing to be eaten, a closed cap one would have substantially higher votes. That is the comparison of cannabis I gave it, is a general consensus of quality is usually widely accepted. I personally don't know anyone that claims open capped sporulated mushrooms are "higher quality" I only know people that like to maximize the weight they grow.
Potency degrades because they are less potent by weight. You have to eat more of them to get the same effect.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Eclipse3130
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? [Re: LeafyClark]
#27384504 - 07/12/21 01:37 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeafyClark said:
Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: If you have a full even canopy developing then should you harvest all the fruits at 1g instead of 10g you'll end up with 1/10 the mass. Do you really think they would be more than 10x the potency?
Open caps doesn't degrade potency. And it's degradation of appearance is purely opinion, mine is that they're perfectly normal.
Cannabis is very different, don't muddy the waters.
I'm on board with quirk, it just doesn't make sense that it could even possibly be worth it to harvest them all small, more is definitely more in my book, maybe letting them curl up and turn the tub black is past the point but not just letting the caps open. I would feel a little hurt harvesting one of my tubs that early, because my open cap mushrooms fuck me up plenty and you'd lose about a 1/4 of the weight
How did you both conclude that I like to harvest my mushrooms when they are 1/10th of their potential size? It was a general statement of how 10 mushrooms of 1 gram each would be stronger than 1 mushroom that weighs 10 grams.
I harvest my mushrooms right before the veil tears as that's what I deem to be of the highest quality, they don't break as easily as well when handling when dried, and are more potent than an open capped mushroom by weight.
That's all I'm saying is harvesting right before the veil tears is the most optimal time to pick mushrooms, that is widely accepted here too, and generally is considered the highest quality fruit, anything else is personal preference.
So I'm guessing alkaloid content is produced throughout the life cycle of the fruit body, up until the point the veil tears is when it slows down comparatively to the mushroom growing taller and opening the cap to drop spores. The longer it grows, the less potent it becomes, that is general knowledge here I assume.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (07/12/21 01:48 PM)
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Failboat
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? (moved) [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#27384547 - 07/12/21 02:21 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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So my understanding is that based on genetics you'll have a consistent % based on dry weight. Any excess water weight gained past the fully mature point, which should be the point at which it no longer gains dry mass as specified by the genetics, will be removed during dehydration.
It seems that waiting for the caps to open, but not curl up, yields maximum dry mass.
Further I would say some strains definitely grow differently than others and so the phenotypes and morphology arent exactly all the same. I think the genetics are more important than what we think they look like. Is it a choice harvest or is it aesthetically pleasing?
I've been running the same few clones of Melmac for a year. I've run many clones for extended periods. With axenic spawn and good conditions I get even canopies. If a variable is off and I get smaller or larger fruits from an inconsistent pinset, but within the same genetics the potency seems comparable.
Ultimately I think the goal should be maximum alkaloid harvest per sub. To do so I harvest for maximum dry yield.
If the mg/g is not consistent throughout fruit formation then the next question becomes when is choice to balance potency with yield. I however would rather approach this question with legitimate science.
I assume the analysis required to determine both the validity of my ascribed theory as well as the specifics about the possible alternative theory and accompanying function would be the same procedures.
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Eclipse3130
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? (moved) [Re: Failboat]
#27395096 - 07/20/21 01:07 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: So my understanding is that based on genetics you'll have a consistent % based on dry weight. Any excess water weight gained past the fully mature point, which should be the point at which it no longer gains dry mass as specified by the genetics, will be removed during dehydration.
It seems that waiting for the caps to open, but not curl up, yields maximum dry mass.
Further I would say some strains definitely grow differently than others and so the phenotypes and morphology arent exactly all the same. I think the genetics are more important than what we think they look like. Is it a choice harvest or is it aesthetically pleasing?
I've been running the same few clones of Melmac for a year. I've run many clones for extended periods. With axenic spawn and good conditions I get even canopies. If a variable is off and I get smaller or larger fruits from an inconsistent pinset, but within the same genetics the potency seems comparable.
Ultimately I think the goal should be maximum alkaloid harvest per sub. To do so I harvest for maximum dry yield.
If the mg/g is not consistent throughout fruit formation then the next question becomes when is choice to balance potency with yield. I however would rather approach this question with legitimate science.
I assume the analysis required to determine both the validity of my ascribed theory as well as the specifics about the possible alternative theory and accompanying function would be the same procedures.
It is well known the smaller the mushroom the more potent it is by weight comparatively to a large one, but yes the bigger they grow the more total alkaloids will be present because it will weigh a lot more, comparatively.
You're right if you harvest a canopy fully opened caps it will yield more weight and overall alkaloids than if you did it earlier. But at what point do you sacrifice quality? It's the same sense as harvesting anything past its ripe stage, it is no myth once caps open and begin to drop spores it is on the latter half of its life cycle, i.e. past ripe.
It is just my experience with most cubensis harvesting them after the caps open enables easier breakage upon handling(less density), lesser aesthetic appeal(structure), and potential discoloration from spores. All which reduce the overall quality of the product. Of course it varies from strain to strain when the fruits are ripe.
I prefer to maintain quality of product if it means getting less of an overall yield. Not entirely sure why one would desire the opposite unless they will be using the product to extract or turn into a form that the mushrooms are no longer visible, then I would completely agree with that.
I can totally see why some people don't care if the caps are open or not, as humans we generally are attracted to more aesthetic qualities, and mushrooms are art to me, so I prefer to grow them to look the prettiest. I believe it shows a level of attention to detail.
I also believe it will save that much more energy for the subsequent flushes to flourish, and on a more joking note, I view spores dropping as the orgasm of the mushroom, I prefer to harvest before that happens, potency still within
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (07/20/21 01:12 PM)
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Failboat
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? (moved) [Re: Eclipse3130]
#27395319 - 07/20/21 03:29 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Don't worry about bag appeal. I stand behind my work. I won't fuck up my canopy because of some pseudoscience. 
Either it's a flat rate % by dry weight or there's a logarithm to plot the point of maximum potency and that I think would be strain dependent. It's not like you're gonna get shitty mushrooms cause you harvested 6-12hr later than before.
How does one test dry mass alkaloid content?
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Eclipse3130
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Re: All alkaloid concentration present in primordia? (moved) [Re: Failboat]
#27396774 - 07/21/21 02:55 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: Don't worry about bag appeal. I stand behind my work. I won't fuck up my canopy because of some pseudoscience. 
Either it's a flat rate % by dry weight or there's a logarithm to plot the point of maximum potency and that I think would be strain dependent. It's not like you're gonna get shitty mushrooms cause you harvested 6-12hr later than before.
How does one test dry mass alkaloid content?
To each their own, I harvest when/as veils are tearing for aesthetic quality and other reasons listed above.
The percentage of potency by weight decreases the larger the mushroom gets.
And yes I agree the potency doesn't drastically decrease if harvesting after caps open, it's marginal. But overall aesthetic quality does, differing from each strain in my opinion.
The only reason you want to maximize your harvest is because you care more about the overall weight than the quality of the mushroom, nothing wrong with that.
You can test your mushrooms Oakland_Hyphae offers it on instagram.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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