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OfflineFun_Guy5387
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Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes?
    #27371744 - 07/02/21 01:46 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

After a successful BRF cake grow in my SGFC I am looking to get into more bulk.

One recommendation was to go to shoeboxes. So, I found a tek. This Tek has you go through all the trouble of creating BRF cakes but instead of a SGFC you crumble the cakes into a shoebox. In this example  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27370502#27370502 ; the Tek produced 28 grams from 2 shoeboxes and a lot of work.

However, I got 18 grams dried total from 6 cakes and am now on my second flush. It looks like I will get more than 28 grams total from just 2 flushes.

My question is, what is the advantage of going to a shoebox since it does not seem to produce much more than basic cakes, and of course using a new system is going to involve some work. Drilling a zillion holes in my SGFC was a PITA but I am all set up to do more cakes and at this point the process is easy.

Is it really worth using shoeboxes as I am getting the same result as I do from just straight cakes? Maybe if I did a first flush in my SGFC and then crumbled the cakes to bulk, but it is my understanding that this should not be done.


Edited by Fun_Guy5387 (07/02/21 01:47 PM)


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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Fun_Guy5387]
    #27371754 - 07/02/21 02:02 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

You have to practice and dial in maintaining surfaces. There's no guarantees on yields just cause of the tek you use. With ms, it doesn't hurt to be a little lucky as well.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Fun_Guy5387]
    #27371761 - 07/02/21 02:07 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I average 3oz dried/shoebox with 2q spawn/2q substrate, 2 flushes.
When you're ready for better yields, ditch the cakes and use agar/grain and mushboy's shoebox Tek.
But yes, clean spawn and surface conditions are everything.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Fun_Guy5387]
    #27371763 - 07/02/21 02:08 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Bulk substrate is basically a water reservoir for mushrooms to draw from, fruits are made up primarily of water. More water= the potential for a heavier flush.

But as LtLurker mentioned above: this is dependent upon genetics and conditions.

And as ladysknight said: clean spawn is king. No syringes here.

You can get up to 8oz dry from a great culture in a full size mono, one flush.


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (07/02/21 02:24 PM)


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OfflineFun_Guy5387
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27372964 - 07/03/21 02:16 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks guys. So, do you thing that it is better to skip cakes altogether when going bulk?


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OfflineFun_Guy5387
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LadysKnight]
    #27372967 - 07/03/21 02:17 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
I average 3oz dried/shoebox with 2q spawn/2q substrate, 2 flushes.
When you're ready for better yields, ditch the cakes and use agar/grain and mushboy's shoebox Tek.
But yes, clean spawn and surface conditions are everything.




I noticed that Mushy was a TC, and now is not. Am I imagining that? Who did he piss off, LOL.


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InvisibleLadysKnight
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Fun_Guy5387]
    #27372972 - 07/03/21 02:19 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yes. The cakes work in spite of contams. If you shread those contams to bulk, you may as well just shoot spores straight to grain and roll those shitty dice.
Yes, I haven't demoted him yet. :lol:


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OfflineAbyssinian
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LadysKnight]
    #27372992 - 07/03/21 02:50 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Even when I was doing cakes I always shredded them and grew in shoeboxes so I guess I can't directly compare yield but.. I didn't want to make a SGFC in the first place; a pain in the ass to make and a weird thing to keep around your house all the time. On top of that I wanted to be able to grow more than x number of cakes than fit in a SGFC anyway. And either way you can grow more cakes per area dedicated to plastic boxes. I'm not sure how much babysitting the SGFC requires either but the SFF shoeboxes ( https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662/fpart/1/vc/1 ) are mostly set and forget.
I guess from my perspective, I don't see any advantages to cakes over shoeboxes instead of the other way around

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
Yes. The cakes work in spite of contams. If you shread those contams to bulk, you may as well just shoot spores straight to grain and roll those shitty dice.




I never once had a shredded pf shoebox contam before getting multiple flushes..


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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LadysKnight]
    #27373004 - 07/03/21 02:58 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
Yes. The cakes work in spite of contams. If you shread those contams to bulk, you may as well just shoot spores straight to grain and roll those shitty dice.



No. Spores to grain is way worse than using cakes for bulk ime. I still make cakes to bulk pretty regularly and have few issues, i tried spore to grain a few times for giggles and lossed around 50% of my stuff. Bacteria doesn't flourish in a pf jar like it does in a grain jar.


Edited by LtLurker (07/03/21 03:00 PM)


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Fun_Guy5387]
    #27373013 - 07/03/21 03:06 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Fun_Guy5387 said:
Quote:

LadysKnight said:
I average 3oz dried/shoebox with 2q spawn/2q substrate, 2 flushes.
When you're ready for better yields, ditch the cakes and use agar/grain and mushboy's shoebox Tek.
But yes, clean spawn and surface conditions are everything.




I noticed that Mushy was a TC, and now is not. Am I imagining that? Who did he piss off, LOL.





Maybe you were looking at a post in someone’s journal  or something (doesn’t show the tag there) but he’s definitely a TC

Faht


Edited by fahtster (07/03/21 03:07 PM)


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OfflineKurono
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: fahtster]
    #27373884 - 07/04/21 11:43 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I started a few months ago. Ran a couple batches of cakes then ran 8 shoeboxes. Without a doubt the shoeboxes make larger fruits.

These came from the same syringes. (I recognize it's a crap shoot genetic wise doing it this way.) Best thing to do as many will tell you is agar. I recently started that process, but havent gotten to the point of fruiting from any of my monocultures yet.





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OfflineLittleBoard
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Kurono]
    #27373947 - 07/04/21 12:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

How many cakes did you use to put into shoeboxes to get 28g? The 28g should be achievable with 3 cakes in one box depending on size. Thats the equivalent of getting around 30g out of a quart of grain. I am sure some people get more but those are my averages.

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Bulk substrate is basically a water reservoir for mushrooms to draw from, fruits are made up primarily of water. More water= the potential for a heavier flush.





The water should not matter if you compare both weights after drying them properly. If bulk had more waterweight in fresh mushrooms compared to pf tek then it would become a bigger but lighter fruit after drying. What matters in the end should be the amount of actual "food" in the whole substrate.


Edited by LittleBoard (07/04/21 01:22 PM)


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LittleBoard]
    #27374051 - 07/04/21 02:32 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry, this is incorrect.


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27374144 - 07/04/21 04:04 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Stick with pf tek unless you want to get into agar. Pf to bulk isnt really much more work than regular of tek...you just hydrate some coir, the advantage of the coir is that it holds water, meaning bigger fruits and less misting. You can still use your sgfc if you want to, just spawn some boxes and leave them in there topless. If youre skeptical, spawn half your cakes and fruit them side by side


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: bakedbeings]
    #27374149 - 07/04/21 04:10 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

The problem with brf to bulk when using spore solution as inoculant is that brf is resistant to bacteria to some degree, if there is bacteria trapped within a brf cake that would have fruited if left alone will now become overwhelmed by that same bacteria when spawned to a medium less resistant to bacteria. Spawning requires clean spawn.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: bakedbeings]
    #27374152 - 07/04/21 04:14 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

More spawn has potential for more yield, but it needs the water to utilize it.


The biggest attraction to bulk tubs for me is that they run themselves and maintain perfect conditions once you get them dialed in.


Just spawn and come back in a couple weeks to collect shrooms.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: A.k.a]
    #27374170 - 07/04/21 04:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, but more spawn isn't exactly the same as saying that nutrients are the primary cause of harvest weight, like the guy above was saying.

Quote:

LittleBoard said:
The water should not matter if you compare both weights after drying them properly. If bulk had more waterweight in fresh mushrooms compared to pf tek then it would become a bigger but lighter fruit after drying. What matters in the end should be the amount of actual "food" in the whole substrate.





Brf cakes are highly nutritious with little water reserves and never flush as well as a substrate with higher water content. Food is necessary but not very, water is far mar important when talking about harvest weight.
The mushrooms dont perform as he described above, more water equals more weight.

This is the same logic and reasoning that leads to new growers trying to add coffee and spawn to manure, because they think that increased nitrogen or some vague term like "nutes" will win them more mushrooms, cubes need food but not really that much. I spawn 4 quarts (4lbs) to 1100gr (2.4lb) of coir, 5 liters of water (11lbs) and 3 quarts verm (nearly 1lb), by comparison the grain represents a small portion of the overall environment. 4 lbs of grain to 11+ lbs of water: nearly 3x more water when also considering water weight added to the grains during prep.

It's definitely not the case that larger substrates yield larger mushrooms by comparison that actually dry out lighter than the fruits from brf.


biological efficiency (BE) = the wet weight of fruits / the dry weight of the substrate * 100

More water equils higher BE.


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (07/04/21 05:52 PM)


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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27374521 - 07/04/21 10:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
The problem with brf to bulk when using spore solution as inoculant is that brf is resistant to bacteria to some degree, if there is bacteria trapped within a brf cake that would have fruited if left alone will now become overwhelmed by that same bacteria when spawned to a medium less resistant to bacteria. Spawning requires clean spawn.



It's kinda rare for me to lose a tub before it flushes when doing brf>bulk. Cakes aren't exactly riding a fine line between fruiting and contaming out when broken to bulk. Sure it's not as good as clean grains, but it's not a very high fail rate like spore>grain either.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27374569 - 07/05/21 12:23 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I do quite well with my BRF shredded to bulk compared to my cakes. I do both for cloning material and have noticed much higher yields from the shredded shoeboxes.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Ashtray161]
    #27374578 - 07/05/21 12:31 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

What ratio are you guys using when going brf to bulk? 1:1? Straight coir? Thanks in advance!


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Edited by Atomsplit (07/05/21 12:53 AM)


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Atomsplit]
    #27374720 - 07/05/21 06:59 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I like about 1:2.5.


If I’m a little unsure about the spawn I’ll knock it way down to get it colonized ASAP though.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27374763 - 07/05/21 08:44 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LtLurker said:
It's kinda rare for me to lose a tub before it flushes when doing brf>bulk. Cakes aren't exactly riding a fine line between fruiting and contaming out when broken to bulk. Sure it's not as good as clean grains, but it's not a very high fail rate like spore>grain either.





Yeah but I'd bet you're  a lot better at this than someone just starting out. Do you do a lot of spore to brf then to bulk?  Do you get a dense pinset and canopy doing this?

@Ashtry: No offence, man, but I wouldn't say that your tubs are very successful when compared to a full flush. Bacteria will prevent a full flush so keep that in mind while pursuing a dense canopy.


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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27374837 - 07/05/21 10:06 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

roughly 1:1, probably a little heavier on coir. I just eyeball to get the tub at the height i want.
There's a shoebox assembly link in my signature.

@P9. I still run brf>bulk quite often yes. It mostly fills gaps between agar>grains and makes for a quick easy run for prints. Could be used for selecting clones to.
Pinsets are as good as any ms grow, good conditions and moderate luck gives good pinsets. I think it's newb friendly, it's no different than dialing in any other bulk tub.
These are a couple of the oldest photos i have; my first ms>brf>bulk before i had a pc.


And this is a current APE brf>bulk starting to pin. Bought a syringe, so I shot some cakes to fruit while I did the agar work.


Edited by LtLurker (07/05/21 10:26 AM)


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27375119 - 07/05/21 01:56 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I use 1:1.5 stra8 coir


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27375146 - 07/05/21 02:16 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Nice looking tubs, you definitely have that dialed in well. I'm super suprised that you don't run into more problems with bacteria, but you obviously know what you're doing.

I tried using spore>brf>cv as a stop gap as well but always ran into problems post spawn, I'm a bit envious of those results lol. Nice work :thumbup:


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (07/05/21 02:21 PM)


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InvisibleLadysKnight
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27375174 - 07/05/21 02:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Alright, so my cakes to bulk were all losers, this is why I can't recommend.

I'd like to see how this tub turns out.



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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LadysKnight]
    #27375187 - 07/05/21 02:47 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
Alright, so my cakes to bulk were all losers, this is why I can't recommend.




This has been my experience as well, I never got pins due to the bacterial syringes going crazy once it got free reign in my cv. Success obviously relies upon your ability to source some pretty darn clean spore syringes.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27375204 - 07/05/21 02:58 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

To be fair the majority of my brf>bulk is from my personal prints/syringes. But I did start out buying syringes and typically they worked fine. Some syringes from vendors i had more weird stuff than others, it's true you don't always know how well it was made and syringe>agar should be the preferred method.

That tub i think is gonna pop. Looks tenacious af and knotted up on all the plates to. Gnarly looking myc though and a bit of metabs happening. I'll put the finished tub in potd good or bad.


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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27375212 - 07/05/21 03:02 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LtLurker said:
To be fair the majority of my brf>bulk is from my personal prints/syringes. But I did start out buying syringes and typically they worked fine. Some syringes from vendors i had more weird stuff than others, it's true you don't always know how well it was made and syringe>agar should be the preferred method.

That tub i think is gonna pop. Looks tenacious af and knotted up on all the plates to. Gnarly looking myc though. I'll put the finished tub in potd good or bad.




Your success with this method is a testament to your ability to print clean and make clean syringes, nice work man.


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InvisibleLadysKnight
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27375258 - 07/05/21 03:32 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LtLurker said:
To be fair the majority of my brf>bulk is from my personal prints/syringes. But I did start out buying syringes and typically they worked fine. Some syringes from vendors i had more weird stuff than others, it's true you don't always know how well it was made and syringe>agar should be the preferred method.

That tub i think is gonna pop. Looks tenacious af and knotted up on all the plates to. Gnarly looking myc though and a bit of metabs happening. I'll put the finished tub in potd good or bad.




I appreciate your transparency, genuinely curious, I can see it going either way.


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OfflineErnieErgot67
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Re: Is the final volume of a shoebox really that much better than cakes? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27378895 - 07/08/21 09:43 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LtLurker said:
No. Spores to grain is way worse than using cakes for bulk ime. I still make cakes to bulk pretty regularly and have few issues, i tried spore to grain a few times for giggles and lossed around 50% of my stuff. Bacteria doesn't flourish in a pf jar like it does in a grain jar.




Hey LT!:smile:
This was one of the key pieces of advice that I had gotten in the very beginning. I have been watching too much stuff on YouTube and you and a few others set me straight. I abandoned the MSS And went to LC and then learned to test them on agar. As posted up above going MSS to grain you lost 50% of your jars. A lot of times in life I think I know better. I am so happy that in this case of learning with you guys I did not have this attitude. (TAKE NOTE NOOBIES) Taking suggestions and listening to people who have done and failed and done and succeeded is definitely recommended. The only thing I didn’t follow too closely was sticking with cakes. Though they are contaminant resistant in comparison to the rest, they’re just a pain in the ass to me. I started spawning cakes to bulk immediately and once I felt comfortable, I switched to grain.
Anyway, thank you for that important piece of advice somewhere back in January or December when I first started.
Hope your doing well LT and your happy and healthy Brutha, both physically and spiritually.

Peace, love, and miles of mycelium
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Edited by ErnieErgot67 (07/08/21 09:47 AM)


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