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Invisible2sky
a friend of Narnia
Male
Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 119
Loc: the Dawn
Growth
    #27365419 - 06/27/21 05:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

on a fixed and finite planet,

every time the population doubles there is only half as much of everything for everyone

the Kingsmen 2015

- X -

and the devil's daughter crept up out of the water saying: Reverend Lee, Reverend Lee, oh, won't you do it to me

Sixteen Tons - the weavers


--------------------
To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Growth [Re: 2sky]
    #27365489 - 06/27/21 06:40 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

kinda self destructive, right?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27365549 - 06/27/21 07:34 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

kinda


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InvisibleSamantabhadra
Infinite Singularity

Registered: 04/27/21
Posts: 66
Re: Growth [Re: laughingdog]
    #27366485 - 06/28/21 04:12 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

If only we could get energy from the Sun...


--------------------
The actual essence, pristine gnosis,
cannot be improved upon, so virtue is profitless,
and it cannot be impaired, so vice is harmless;
absent of karma there is no ripening of pleasure or pain
absent of judgement, no preference for samsara or nirvana
~Longchenpa


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 37,530
Re: Growth [Re: Samantabhadra]
    #27366491 - 06/28/21 04:16 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

eat plant material


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Growth [Re: Samantabhadra]
    #27366994 - 06/29/21 12:42 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Samantabhadra said:
If only we could get energy from the Sun...




Don't be dissing on the Sun yo, all that we have is driven via the:sun:

Plus there's more food right now than is needed but the logistics of distributing it are not cost effective of efficient. Land is an issue and water will become a greater one.

Can you imagine if the greatest 'spiritual' awakening to strike this earth came in the form of a dagger through gods heart?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleSwing2
Let it rain

Registered: 06/07/21
Posts: 172
Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27370686 - 07/01/21 04:27 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I like warmth.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: Swing2]
    #27372254 - 07/02/21 09:09 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah it takes about 80 acres of land to support one meat-eating person, but a vegan can be supported entirely from less than an acre of good farmland. The carrying capacity of of the earth can be substantially increased for humans by simply eating vegan.

The way to de facto impose that upon a free populace is to stop issuing new permits to build any beef/pork/poultry facilities at all, and impose passive taxes on less efficient farms:

This will force price increases on these foods and current farmers (who already have permits) will embrace the new laws. Then start demanding that farms must comply with strict fossil fuel efficiency standards, and must use solar. The inefficient (id est small farms) will go under, as has been the trend, and the only the big efficient farms will be able to survive. Supply/demand forces will reduce the consumption of pizza, tacos, and hamburgers. The old guard of big efficient farm owners will profit greatly, that guy you know who drives a V-dub bus with a PETA sticker on it will be smiling from ear-to-ear, and the average consumer will just consume less meat because its just too darn expensive. I think over 100 years a plan along that line could increase the carrying capacity of the earth at least 20 fold.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisible2sky
a friend of Narnia
Male
Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 119
Loc: the Dawn
Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27372256 - 07/02/21 09:12 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

There's about a 10 percent reserve in the world's maximum GMO food production capacity. So how long do you think it is going to take before we have to move on to algae and seaweed?

- or as an alternative, in the past when there were famines in India the poor had to sell their babies for food. And the one thing all the great lands of over population know is that life is cheap.


--------------------
To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: 2sky] * 1
    #27372262 - 07/02/21 09:32 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I eat seaweed all the time. Is super nutritious and I think it tastes great. I am pretty hard core in this stuff... and I can't STAND eating algae. I mean, YUCK. Unless you make it into chocolate balls or something. Unfortunately, 90% of the populace ain't gunna eat any of that crap.

If we made non-vegan foods mondo expensive to the point where people just cut way back on it, and increase our carrying capacity by 20 fold, that's a global population carrying capacity of 156 billion. If you look at the UN projections of global population, it's not anywhere near that high over the next hundred years. So, if people go vegan, we can let'r rip and go up in population like the UN says we will for another 100 years without any shortage of non-aquatic plant based food.

Fuel is another matter.

I do think algae is going to be a big part of our distant future for producing renewable oil from the power of the sun, in a manner that is part of the natural carbon cycle (as opposed to de-sequestering carbon from fossil fuels).

Solar is great no matter how you look at it.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Growth [Re: 2sky] * 1
    #27372378 - 07/03/21 01:21 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Logistics is the problem that makes it hard to get excess food from point A to point B..

Algae is already a growing industry. Easy protein etc.

Unfortunately some places like India will probably face greater food struggles along growing populations over other countries like the US.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27372380 - 07/03/21 01:24 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

We made organic foods more expensive and that didn't cut down the demand so much to stop it.. like what are you talking, a 300 dollar slice of cheese?

How does one go about increasing the carrying capacity for a population by 20 fold around the globe? Or maybe the flat earth, I dunno what you believe.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (07/03/21 03:20 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27372410 - 07/03/21 02:58 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Yeah it takes about 80 acres of land to support one meat-eating person, but a vegan can be supported entirely from less than an acre of good farmland. The carrying capacity of of the earth can be substantially increased for humans by simply eating vegan.

The way to de facto impose that upon a free populace is to stop issuing new permits to build any beef/pork/poultry facilities at all, and impose passive taxes on less efficient farms:

This will force price increases on these foods and current farmers (who already have permits) will embrace the new laws. Then start demanding that farms must comply with strict fossil fuel efficiency standards, and must use solar. The inefficient (id est small farms) will go under, as has been the trend, and the only the big efficient farms will be able to survive. Supply/demand forces will reduce the consumption of pizza, tacos, and hamburgers. The old guard of big efficient farm owners will profit greatly, that guy you know who drives a V-dub bus with a PETA sticker on it will be smiling from ear-to-ear, and the average consumer will just consume less meat because its just too darn expensive. I think over 100 years a plan along that line could increase the carrying capacity of the earth at least 20 fold.




Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Well, I eat seaweed all the time. Is super nutritious and I think it tastes great. I am pretty hard core in this stuff... and I can't STAND eating algae. I mean, YUCK. Unless you make it into chocolate balls or something. Unfortunately, 90% of the populace ain't gunna eat any of that crap.

If we made non-vegan foods mondo expensive to the point where people just cut way back on it, and increase our carrying capacity by 20 fold, that's a global population carrying capacity of 156 billion. If you look at the UN projections of global population, it's not anywhere near that high over the next hundred years. So, if people go vegan, we can let'r rip and go up in population like the UN says we will for another 100 years without any shortage of non-aquatic plant based food.

Fuel is another matter.

I do think algae is going to be a big part of our distant future for producing renewable oil from the power of the sun, in a manner that is part of the natural carbon cycle (as opposed to de-sequestering carbon from fossil fuels).

Solar is great no matter how you look at it.




This is wildly oversimplified and misinformed, my friend.

Propaganda is inescapable from all sides.

You cannot escape that level of this consciousness matrix program.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


Edited by Loaded Shaman (07/03/21 03:21 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 37,530
Re: Growth [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27372433 - 07/03/21 04:03 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

but really, how many billions do we need to be alive at the same time.
some birth control makes sense.
Sure grow less inefficient beef - great ideas there with taxing and solar. but for climate not for carrying capacity.

My favorite sardines are already too expensive!
I need water, sardines, kasha, potato perogies and fresh veggies. but I'm just one of 7.7 billion.


--------------------
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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27372530 - 07/03/21 07:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Logistics is the problem that makes it hard to get excess food from point A to point B..

Unfortunately some places like India will probably face greater food struggles along growing populations over other countries like the US.




Yep.

Quote:

sudly said:
We made organic foods more expensive and that didn't cut down the demand so much to stop it.. like what are you talking, a 300 dollar slice of cheese?





There's a good question.

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
This is wildly oversimplified and misinformed, my friend.

Propaganda is inescapable from all sides.




Wildly oversimplified to be sure, but you can't fairly say I'm misinformed in general. I said so many different things I don't know which one to back up with citations from peer-reviewed studies. Pick one specific item, and lets start with that.

I hope you weren't questioning the validity of my personal distaste for eating algae. Blegh! Not willing to do a double blind test for you to prove I don't like it.

As for propaganda, am I biased towards or against corporate farmers, or towards or against vegans as a result of this propaganda which evidently sways me? Or are we talking about the bias of the UN?

By implying that I garnered my thoughts from propaganda, you assume I have not been immersed in the scholarly literature on this subject. For all you know, I could be employed at a think tank that works on this very subject for PETA or for Bayer (f.k.a. Monsanto).

When talking to people on the internet, don't assume they are rich or poor, so to speak.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27372532 - 07/03/21 07:36 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I like to be critiqued... but to summarily dismiss someone denies them the chance to learn.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27372536 - 07/03/21 07:41 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I agree. At some point climate comes into the equation. Where, I don't know.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27372608 - 07/03/21 09:00 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

it is part of the pain of mismanagement, kind of like missing the last payment on an overdue bill.

Global warming is the planet's collection department.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27373396 - 07/03/21 11:31 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

There are inefficiencies in the use of agricultural lands, and intergrating higher vegetable content into diets would help to increase the carrying capacity, however, it's not as simple as going vegan because not all land is the same. There are a variety of different land types that support different uses, and I don't think that oversimplifying this information is useful to your cause in the long run.

Quote:

Since production of different types of food requires different types of agricultural land, researchers distinguished among three distinct categories of land: grazing land, cultivated cropland and perennial forage cropland. They found that the five diets containing the largest quantities of meat used all of the available cropland and grazing land. The five diets containing little or no meat still used the maximum available area of cultivated cropland but varied widely in their use of forage and grazing land. The vegan diet relied solely on the land suited to growing crops, using none of the available grazing or forage land.

When the number of people who can be fed from the available agricultural land was estimated, results revealed that reducing meat in the diet increases the number of people who could be supported by existing farmland. Estimates of the number of people who could be fed ranged from a 402 million people for the “business as usual” diet to 807 million people in the lacto vegetarian scenario. The vegan diet, surprisingly, fed fewer people than two of the omnivore diets and both of the other vegetarian diets, suggesting food choices that make use of grazing and forage land as well as cropland could feed more people than those that completely eliminate animal-based food from our diets.

The researchers concluded that a strategic shift toward a plant-based diet could reduce the amount of land needed to feed U.S. consumers and at the same time increase the number of people who can be fed from our agricultural resources. The result could be more food — without the need to clear more land — for hundreds of millions of people around the globe.

https://ensia.com/notable/which-diet-makes-best-use-of-farmland-you-might-be-surprised/




What is your source for omnivorous diets requiring 80 acres of land per person?

Quote:

Instead of the usual value of 1.04 acres per person (335 million acres for 322 million persons), the ratio becomes 0.535 acres per person. And this answers the question as to what amount of land is needed for a complete vegan diet: just over half an acre

https://hungermath.wordpress.com/2015/10/22/amount-of-land-needed-for-full-vegan-diet/




Why would the V-dub driver be happy that big meat corporations have created a monopoly on the meat industry?

And the banning of any new meat farms is a rather fantastical suggestion imo.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27373675 - 07/04/21 07:47 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
There are inefficiencies in the use of agricultural lands, and intergrating higher vegetable content into diets would help to increase the carrying capacity, however, it's not as simple as going vegan because not all land is the same. There are a variety of different land types that support different uses, and I don't think that oversimplifying this information is useful to your cause in the long run.




That's true. There is a certain amount of grazing land that is just too rocky and hilly to be put into useful production for food crops. That land can easily be used to graze beef.

Most of our beef today comes from feed lots, where cattle are confined together and fed corn to finish them for market. So, if we preserve grazing beef production, that would still result in a substantial increase in the number of acres made available for human food.

I think oversimplification is the only way a subject like this can be discussed by lay people, but I have to agree, its not really useful for us. More just for discussion's sake.

Quote:

sudly said:What is your source for omnivorous diets requiring 80 acres of land per person?



That's a good question. The data we can use to calculate this change from year to year, and vary greatly from country to country. As nations westernize, so do their diets and appetite for things they see on TV, including tacos, pizza, and hamburgers.

As with oil consumption, the U.S. is no longer the primary market pricing determinate. Foreign consumption of meat and dairy products from the new emerging middle class is now the driving factor in global demand. To meet the oncoming flood of demand, dairy farms will consolidate, improve genetics and animal care techniques, improve efficiencies, and expand substantially. The bulk of this expansion is going to have to come from the United States, as no other nation has the infrastructure to meet the oncoming demand.

So, nobody really has a specific number that they can use for this forecast of how much we will need with much accuracy. The US isn't really a good representative example because we import more beef than anyone in the world and are also the world's largest exporter of beef, which seems counterintuitive (we export fine cuts and import low-grade beef for making ground beef). So, how much beef/dairy/pork/poultry is "needed" by a person is highly subjective! Also, to just use a generalization about land is highly subjective too, because 80 acres of California land is different than 80 acres of Midwest cornbelt land. So, I think for very light discussion like this, we could use some numbers based on land that would have otherwise been used to grow feedcorn. Farm land is often measured by 40's. The settlers took land by 40's, and most of the land in the cornbelt today is still held in 40, 80, 120, and 160 acre parcels. So, using some pretty rough rounding (its hard to have any significant figures when we are dealing with data that contains so many estimates), you can use your favorite source of data for the question of "how much land is needed to support one person" and their calculations will be as good as my own. I'm not going to say that my own rounded calculations are any better than someone else's, but I have a hard time believing that (given the data we have available) that anyone could produce numbers with a whole lot more certainty than I did. So the short answer is that 80 acres is a rough guess (based upon production data from Midwest crop land and an American diet), and anyone else's figure is too. That's why I rounded down.

Quote:

sudly said:Why would the V-dub driver be happy that big meat corporations have created a monopoly on the meat industry?



Constraining supply would cause a significant reduction in the number of innocent animals held in captivity in cruel conditions, to be ground up to be used as unhealthy human food would be the biggest step of progress PETA.

Plus the added bonus that, due to their efficient nature, large corporate farms have less pollution, less waste, less energy consumption, and lower carbon emissions than smaller farms, from a per-cow perspective (FlysjĂś, Cederbert, Henriksson, & Ledgard, 2012).

Quote:

sudly said:And the banning of any new meat farms is a rather fantastical suggestion imo.



I would recommend speaking with any large farming operation on that. It has become increasingly difficult to get permits to build new farms. A Google search on "dairy farming permit denied" will also yield an abundance of examples that this is already happening. I can tell you from personal experience providing analytical data to large corporate farms, that statistically speaking for the average farming operation, it is not my recommendation to build a new facility on a new site. My recommendation to large corporate farms has been to simply buy a smaller facility and expand it to get over the hurdle of permitting. The legislative environment has not been getting easier either.

If the legislation benefits large corporations and special interest groups, its just a matter of time. Shmucks like you and me don't matter. The same thing happened in the oil industry. There are only a handful of refineries. To get a permit to build a new oil refinery in the US is nearly impossible. Not technically "monopoly" but profitable for the small handful of remaining refineries to be sure.



FlysjĂś, A., Cederbert, C., Henriksson, M., Ledgard, S. (2012). The interaction between milk and beef production and emissions from land use change: Critical considerations in life cycle assessment and carbon footprint studies of milk. Journal of Cleaner Production, 28(12) 134-142.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27373691 - 07/04/21 08:09 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I'd add,... if you define "person" (Average American in a given year where data is available, average global person including pre-westernized cultures that still eat mostly veg, et cetera) and define "land" (average piece of land in a specific area), and define whether we should round up not for planning vs. reporting, then estimates will converge and any two analysts will give you the same numbers.

An estimate used for production planning must contain extra to ensure that there is enough to cover required costs/demand. This is different than an estimate for novelty.

I looked at the 1/2 acre estimate (it was actually a 1.5 acre estimate). That was based on an average low-dairy diet. It takes 10 pounds of milk to produce a pound of cheese. So anyone's estimates have to nail down "are these people going to eat pizza? Are they going to be wasteful? Most food that is produced ends up going in the landfill. So it takes a lot more land to produce food for Americans in real life than what people would think if they assume average global diets and zero food waste.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27373716 - 07/04/21 08:39 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Wait wait... I just looked at some of my old notes. My "80" was based upon grazing land used to produce meat and included Texas beef data. If we throw out Texas grazing land from the data set (Texas grazing land isn't good for anything but grazing, and we should differentiate types of farmland as Sudly pointed out),... so if we just use Midwest farmland that would have otherwise been used for feed corn, then the "80" will drop down substantially.

Its still a whole lot higher than 1.5 acres though. The 1.5 is not a forecast, so it ignores dietary shifts towards westernization. It also ignores food waste, which is a reality.

So credit to Sudly for calling me on my "80" number. The BLM allows permits for about 50 cows on some 15,000 land allotments in the Southwest US, and that just has to be backed out when talking about reducing beef & dairy consumption in the future because that land will always be used for beef... unless they legalize mescaline. Then we could grow a lot of cacti on it!

So, it wouldn't do as much good as I said originally but even if you use the (very low) 1.5 number in the study Sudly referenced, that would still increase carrying capacity by a factor of 3.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27373799 - 07/04/21 10:14 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

still, too many people on planet.
the traffic to go anywhere is too heavy most of the time


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27373948 - 07/04/21 12:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Well...

We could create a virus that would attack people with psychopathy genes and render them sterile. OK never mind someone would actually take that seriously. 

Well first we should legalize all drugs that grow in the ground, issue pardons, and empty out most of the prisons, and then start cracking down on the criminals who are actually violent psychopaths and people with very antisocial societal problems. Then we can just castrate the ones who aren't really dangerous and give them free weed for life as a reward for being "on the cutting edge of societal reform."

With their balls gone, they would not be anywhere near as violent. If they are sent back again, then we can just Kvork them.

Then with their debt to society served, they (the alive ones, not the dead ones) could wear pins that say "I'm saving the earth," and "Hero."


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"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27373954 - 07/04/21 12:48 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

you are like absence of many people
many bad people
enjoy
love you!


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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27374035 - 07/04/21 02:18 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

You wanna oversimplify shit and guess..

And the only link you've given is about milk productivity in Sweden.

Quote:

Highlights

► It is important to consider the by-product beef in carbon footprint studies of milk. ► Intensification of milk per cow does not necessarily reduce the carbon footprint of milk. ► Emissions from land use change can drastically affect the carbon footprint of milk. ► It is important to report emissions from land use change separately.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652611004823?via%3Dihub




You could share an actual quote to make a point instead of trying to send people off to do your reading for you.

You've used the flyjo cite to make a claim that doesn't appear in the DOI. I can't find where it compares large to small farms but you apparently did so do please share.

Plus, I don't think that large efficient factories pushing out smaller factories will necessitate a reduce in supply.

Quote:

Across the US, dairy farmers have struggled beneath the weight of an industry-wide economic crisis. T​he cause ​is the massive overproduction of milk by large dairy operations, which has​ ​saturated the market, ​driving prices ​down well below the cost of production.

Proponents of mega-dairies cite efficiency and economies of scale, arguing that the model is simply the next logical step in dairying. But opponents, including Levins, say such operations do incalculable damage to the environment and rural communities, and capture bigger slices of a finite milk and cheese market – to the detriment of smaller dairies barely hanging on.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/01/there-are-ghosts-in-the-land-how-us-mega-dairies-are-killing-off-small-farms




Where does the 1.5 acres come from?


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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27374040 - 07/04/21 02:22 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Legalise and regulate drugs, free non-violent drug offenders.

You lost me at castrate and free weed.


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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27374111 - 07/04/21 03:22 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah... all analytics that involves forecasting is oversimplification and guesswork. Yep there are so many variables.

Yep.

So far as the rest... I'm kinda high right now so maybe we can talk later.

But the 1.5 that was from your analyst.


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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27374262 - 07/04/21 06:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Oversimplifying things often misses the nuances, doesn't provide context and paints the wrong picture.

I don't think straight up guessing is involved.

1.5 doesn't turn up in the link I shared. Quote or screenshot? Ffs.


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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27374792 - 07/05/21 09:20 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I'm afraid we're not seeing eye to eye.


OK, wow that's a lot. I did a lot of work on this subject a few years ago, which was probably all rubbish, but the topic is starting to feel like work without pay. I will pick a few to answer which seem most relevant. Expect more oversimplification.

So far as losing you at castration and free weed,... the context of this thread is overpopulation and so forth. That comment I made was referencing voluntary eugenics. The preface was intended to exclude most of us from the latter.

When you do a forecast of future events in an uncontrolled system with a lot of variables, there are a few different methodologies that are popular. The linear approach tosses everything onto a graph and draws a straight line. I think its safe to say that's not how real numbers work, and that is an oversimplification by anyone's standards, but yet it seems to be the most popular. Another popular forecast model is the least squares, which is at least allows for a parabolic forecast and a regression to the mean. I'm a big fan of regression analysis... but 99% of them ignore so many real-world variables. They're all an oversimplification. You just can't build a model without it being... well... a model. I think the only way you can do it without oversimplification is to use a machine learning algorithm (such as a multivariate perceptron) so that it can analyze multiple data sets simultaneously. So the better the algo gets, the more it appears to be heuristic in nature. Id est, it guesses. That's just how forecasts work.

On oversimplification, for example, the link you provided contained, in a few paragraphs, a summation filled with so many assumptions that I don't understand how you could read it and not think it was an oversimplification. Volumes of books could be written on that topic alone, yet you were content to send that dainty little analysis with hardly enough variables to even be taken seriously. I called my own much more robust forecast an oversimplification... well yours was worse-- but that's not necessarily bad. Its like significant figures in chemistry. You really have to round things off to the lowest number of significant figures in any of your data. Anything beyond that is insignificantly precise. Admitting that isn't a fault.

I don't think one can even have a conversation about forecasting in a chat forum without guesswork and oversimplification on a such complex topic.

I'd be really interested to see someone do a more robust model. It would be exhausting. The last time I did any robust modeling was a few years ago. It took me 6 months to build. Even that involved a lot of assumptions, rendering its final output to little more value than heuristic guesswork.

Not being very savvy with what "the kids these days" are all saying in forum abbreviations, I had to look up "FFS." I'm all about discourse, with friends, but I'm not detecting that vibe. Please accept my apologies for my part in that.


Edited by Moses_Davidson (07/05/21 10:22 AM)


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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27374845 - 07/05/21 10:10 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

gentle growth!
and some trimming of the bushes then.


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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27374856 - 07/05/21 10:19 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

What do you think of eugenics?

Since our species has few natural selection pressures in this day and age, should we prune the bush selectively to improve our gene pool? If so how?


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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27374894 - 07/05/21 10:52 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I do not think we understand genetics enough to perform eugenics.

inheritance of phenotypical features is one thing but combinatorial inheritance of genotypical alleles that are not expressed visibly may be expressed in very positive ways that are not understood:

eg, you could suppress mating of people with big ears, and lose tremendous creative results, or maybe women with endometriosis, and lose a gneration of geniuses, you never know.

diversity is best and healthiest genetically.

still we have too many allergies and that may just be environmental disruption from too much industry and too many people of all stripes.

trimming family size can be promoted by government programs. eugenics is not science, it's racism.


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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27375100 - 07/05/21 01:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

You come in here, make a crack pot guess, change your mind and then pat yourself on the back like you've cracked some kind of universal coeeficient.

Bravo, the chutzpah on you mate.

Bar oversimplifying, you were just wrong, and if you want to be addressed in any meaningful way then provide an example and back up your shit.

Ffs mean find factual sauces!


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Edited by sudly (07/05/21 02:07 PM)


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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27375415 - 07/05/21 05:53 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Well...

If anyone else is interested, I'd be glad to PM some of my previous work, with all of the citations & references... but I just don't think its all that interesting or worth the effort to paraphrase for public posting. 

Sudly, you actually said, "Plus, I don't think that large efficient factories pushing out smaller factories will necessitate a reduce in supply." That was such an exceptionally bad read of what I said... I just don't even think its worth replying to you any further.


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"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
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"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27375470 - 07/05/21 06:32 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

You want to implement environmental taxes on factory farms to increase prices and reduce demand.

Larger factories that have the capital to survive these taxes have the chance to do well after this if the smaller factories went under because they could come across a larger share of the market, especially if they buy out the competition.

One possibility is that this saturates the market with cheap meat that further reduces the price.

What I'm saying is that increasing environmental taxes on factory farms doesn't neccesiate a reduction in meat consumption.

And if it does, that you can share the quote or citation to make your point, instead you Jack yourself off and pout about how your children will be Olympians.

If you really want to break it down in to simple terms you could always just say, meat bad, vegan good, and leave it at that.


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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27375560 - 07/05/21 07:25 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Shutting down inefficient farms, gradually over time, will directly result in a decrease of available supply. Fewer cows = more land available for veg crops.

I love tacos, pizza, and hamburgers but am trying to cut back on red meat. More of a smoked salmon & chicken kinda guy.

But I can see your point, if the price goes up a little, people will still buy pizza and won't care if they have to pay $10 or $20... they will still want it.

So what is the effective price point where people will break their love affair with eating animal protein? Hard to say. I don't know how much price increase would be enough. I'm sure someone has done a study on that.


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"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27375708 - 07/05/21 09:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

If the larger ones buy out the smaller ones that could be an issue.

And if you really wanted to save land on the fly you'd up pig and chicken farming and reduce beef production because it uses far more land. (Cruelty aside)

And that was one of the points from before, the land that is used for grazing often isn't suitable for crops.

Here's one source that suggests the effect on price a carbon tax could have is nuanced.
Quote:

Farmers produce a homogeneous product and sell into an international market. This is a perfect recipe for having zero control over the price to sell their output. This means that any additional costs incurred by farmers — from a carbon tax, for example — are difficult to pass on in the supply chain.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/why-agricultural-groups-fiercely-oppose-the-carbon-tax-110248




Maybe instead of trying to influence the price of meat, there could be more development in plant based meat substitutes. They're currently more expensive because they aren't as large scale and don't receive as many subsidies.

Making alternatives more viable sounds like a viable option to me, a slow process that is already taking place.

Quote:

Here's why plant-based meat is so costly:

Plant-based meat production requires less grains, water, and energy than beef burger production — traditional burger companies have to account for the input required to produce animal feed, to "take care" and slaughter cows, and to transport the livestock. But unfortunately, according to WSJ, plant-based burger production is pricier than beef, because the meatless alternatives are made on a smaller scale, while animal agriculture subsidies ensure animal products remain affordable to consumers.

At the beginning of this year, two of the world's leading meat alternative brands, Impossible and Beyond, declared official plans to lower their prices. They planned to do this by opening more manufacturing plants, and by finding new ways to optimize production. Ultimately, Impossible even promised a 15 percent price cut. 

Plant-based manufacturers such as Just Egg, a leading vegan egg company, did just that — after demand and supply increased sufficiently, prices dropped by almost half. That's why a new plant-based manufacturer is in the process of making that possible for leading vegan meat brands, with plans to help cut plant-based meat prices with increased production and utilization of the most efficient technology possible.
https://www.greenmatters.com/p/why-is-plant-based-meat-so-expensive




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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27375916 - 07/06/21 06:06 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

in our family the following allergies drive us to eat beef and pork meat:
seafood allergy
fungus allergy (not me - shroomie)
sunflower seed allergy
peanut and legume allergy including all soy and all soy lecithin etc.
chicken allergy probably because chicken feed has sunflower or soy


luckily everyone here can eat oats and so much can be made from that and all the salads and cheeses we want.

we are incredibly careful with ingredients

so many products have soy or sunflower contact contamination.

we would need lab grown meat if no cows were farmed, and the lab grown beef would have to be nourished with non-sunflower, non-fungus, non-legume(incl.soy) derived nutrients.

note: since the advent of biodiesel (vs petrochemical) most glycol is coming from sunflower and soy, which usually means that contact contamination exists in products with glycols and glycerines etc. making many medicines and nearly all lotions and creams anaphylaxis dangerous.

this suggests that the purity of industrial and commercial reagents is less than 98%. so it is not going to be easy to solve all problems by stopping beef farms for us anyway.


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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27376523 - 07/06/21 03:28 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Maybe instead of trying to influence the price of meat, there could be more development in plant based meat substitutes. They're currently more expensive because they aren't as large scale and don't receive as many subsidies.

Making alternatives more viable sounds like a viable option to me, a slow process that is already taking place.





That could work quite well. If the plant based meat substitutes were cheaper and tasted good, it would outsell regular meat.

The Impossible Whopper at Burger King is excellent, but costs more than the regular Whopper. The patents for that should run out and then anyone can use their additive that makes it taste like real meat.

I think another thing that would help is breaking free of petroleum-based fertilizer and moving to cleaner fuels that are renewable, like ethyl alcohol (which produces water vapor and pure carbon dioxide when burnt).

Another would be to encourage a decentralized electrical grid, where individual home owners and businesses are encouraged to put up solar panels to offset their own power consumption. En masse, this on-site application could be (if done at a large enough scale) drastically cheaper than Biden's plan to beef up the grid and put up huge power facilities and then pipe the power through miles and miles of lines where it would be dissipated as heat loss.

Another would be to do more to encourage homeowners and businesses to insulate and be less wasteful. People like to focus on cars but some energy experts say that the biggest opportunity to minimize energy consumption and carbon emissions is in homes. Its always better to plug a leaky bucket when you are trying to transport water, or so they say.


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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27376535 - 07/06/21 03:35 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
seafood allergy
fungus allergy (not me - shroomie)
sunflower seed allergy
peanut and legume allergy including all soy and all soy lecithin etc.
chicken allergy probably because chicken feed has sunflower or soy





Wow. My wife is allergic to gluten, allergic to dairy, can't eat anything remotely spicy, refuses to eat anything with sugar, and we eat kosher. I feel your pain brothah.


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"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27376825 - 07/06/21 07:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

shomair shabbos?


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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27378126 - 07/07/21 07:17 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I DON'T ROLL on Saturday, Donny!

Yeah I've always been supportive of my wife's holidays and such. She didn't mind in the past when I would work on shabbat or eat pulled pork BBQ. After I found out my maternal grandmother's mom's mother was Jewish, she started gradually (see illustration). I thought I was 1/32 Jewish, but I guess that's not how it works.



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"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


Edited by Moses_Davidson (07/07/21 09:25 PM)


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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27378162 - 07/07/21 07:39 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I lapsed at age 14


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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27378352 - 07/07/21 09:46 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Information increase since the beginning first thing which has been expanding at the rate of one plankc length per instant..

Senses need to be enhanced in order to reach this level..

Your brain holds and stores more and more information as you live through the instants, days.. weeks etc..


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Re: Growth [Re: 2sky]
    #27378441 - 07/07/21 11:57 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

How long is a piece of string?


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Re: Growth [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27378465 - 07/08/21 12:23 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Counted by the number of particles..

Or points..connected to each other

5cm..

Are points particles? I don't know..


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Re: Growth [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27378608 - 07/08/21 04:48 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Planck Length
The smallest possible size for anything in the universe is the Planck Length, which is 1.6 x10-35 m across


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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27379061 - 07/08/21 11:45 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Well I find quantum physics to be a little interesting.
 

If an extra-terrestrial visited primitive humans long ago and wanted to give us instructions to cause as much population growth as possible, and to ensure that these rules would be followed for all time... the following would have worked pretty well:

1. Wash your hands before you eat.
2. Don't touch bodily secretions, dead bodies, or sick people.
3. Don't eat unfamiliar foods and things that eat detritus.
4. Take baths.
5. Work all the time, be productive, but rest once in a while.
6. Learn to store up and be prepared for famines.
7. Pair up, raise your kids together. Teach them the rules.
8. Take care of orphans & travelers. Don't kill your kids (unless they have no regard for the rules).
9. Don't kill people.
10. Do what your parents say (especially following these rules).
11. Don't blow your wad on your wife when she's in the red. Wait 'til you could have a good chance of knocking her up.
12. Men, pair up with women so you can make babies.
13. If you hang out on your roof, put up a railing.
14. If you touch someone else who has been into someone else's bodily secretions, touched dead bodies, or sick people,... then go wash up.

and on and on...

It seems to me that most of the Torah looks like it was designed to make people live a long time and make as many surviving offspring as possible.

All those rules about washing your hands before you eat, and staying away from the bodily fluids of other people, dead things, sick people, taking baths, sounds like germ control.


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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27379067 - 07/08/21 11:50 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

So maybe this is why in our Western society we have so many hangups about population control.


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"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27379214 - 07/08/21 01:31 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

so many hangups about everything.
but here we are to wonder about how we got here!


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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27380093 - 07/09/21 04:52 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Meaningless banter>?


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Re: Growth [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27380120 - 07/09/21 05:34 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

or that too


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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27380153 - 07/09/21 07:04 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

One could argue that nearly everything in philosophy is meaningless.

This thread for sure. Whether we follow rules that seem to increase population growth or whether we are very committed to doing everything in our power to prevent it, it seems such a daunting prospect that any discussion of population growth could be meaningless banter.

...

Well, I suppose if we were serious about population control we could try to educate young people reading this about the financial benefits of having fewer kids.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27380173 - 07/09/21 07:34 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

we're just not nice niche creatures
socially we occupy all and any niches, whether favourable or hostile.
even deserts and now the ocean.

niche creatures can be wiped out if their ecology is threatened

but by being aggressive in commanding all niches we could destroy the entire ecosphere.


if we are less aggressive in growth - balanced against deaths, then we will be ok, but capitalism may need a transfusion or transformation


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Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27382575 - 07/10/21 10:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

An overhaul for capitalism could be the best or worst thing for us.

I have some crazy ("this guy must do psychedelics") ideas about how we could do that.

For a company to become publicly traded, there is a very high barrier to entry. Corporations must surmount the Sarbanes Oxley requirements and have two auditing firms, and hire overpaid big snotty law firms to perform 2,000 hours worth of tedium that nobody will really read anyways. Its such a high barrier to entry, that very, very few companies can actually get there. When they do, they are extorted by investment banking firms and vulture capital investors, and they end having to sacrifice up to 60% of their equity just for the right to be able to trade (sell) their stock.

If we create a new class of corporation which is exempt from Sarbanes-Oxley requirements, and can become publicly traded with a simple audit and giving 30% of the outstanding shares of stock to the government, then the government can start to take over and endorse those companies that belong to "we the people." Then the government could implement a rule that nobody can short the state-owned corporations unless they are trading at a price/earning ratio of over 100. This would jack their share prices up so high that everyone who bought them would be in for a rocket ride. The principals of the corporations would want to sign up because its less work and more profit, and it could result in trillions of dollars in value for the government.

That would allow people to still have some motivation for growth.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27382747 - 07/11/21 04:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I am all for growth in the sense of transformation; the concentration of wealth, however, is not really growth, it is an abscess, and the increase of domestic product and population is not attractive or sustainable, it is a disease.

individual growth is reasonable - individuals pass on and new ones are born.
the increase of the number of individuals which is tied to growth, is problematic.

we should instead aim for health and sustainability, and take responsibility for the impact of our growth. This is not part of corporate culture to the best of my understanding: they practice externalization (of responsibility), and government, as it is now, is not well positioned, or empowered to alter that.

We may need something like Facebook going rogue making the changes that get under our skin and then reshape other businesses and government. So far we are too scattered, picking up the pieces of global warming, racial inequality, conspiracy, and stupidity.

Facebook is probably in the best position to restructure humanity than any other single entity. (I haven't been on it for years)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27382786 - 07/11/21 05:59 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Trickle down economics still hasn't worked, the bottom is lucky to get a single drop.

Health is universal healthcare, solving future medical debts and reducing $8000 a year in insurance premiums to $2000 in extra tax.

Corporations are considered people and are allowed to 'donate' to political campaigns in legalised bribery. A 25th amendment to overturn citizens United is about the only way to curb or at least start to halt the rampant corruption of quid pro quo arrangements blatantly about.

Name an American politician and I'll find their bribes, and potentially the consequences.


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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27382873 - 07/11/21 09:05 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am all for growth in the sense of transformation; the concentration of wealth, however, is not really growth, it is an abscess




Quote:

sudly said:
Health is universal healthcare, solving future medical debts and reducing $8000 a year in insurance premiums to $2000 in extra tax.





Corporations can be used to pay for universal healthcare. If we tax them 30%, we are subsidizing their exit to go somewhere cheaper (exempli grati, Amazon, Google, Bank of America et alli on and on and on, we don't get any taxes from those American corporations, neither does anyone else). However if they voluntarily give us 30% of their entire enterprise in leu of that on-going tax, allowing them to bypass the thugs at the doors of Wall Street, then contributing to society becomes the path of least resistance. Why fight them? Harness them.


Quote:

sudly said:
A 25th amendment to overturn citizens United is about the only way to curb or at least start to halt the rampant corruption of quid pro quo arrangements blatantly about.

Name an American politician and I'll find their bribes, and potentially the consequences.




Very needed indeed.

I think Socrates would have said those are some of the problems with democracy in general. Pure democracy is little more than weighted mob rule. To fix that problem we would have to revolutionize democracy too. I think something like that would be a long, long ways away. Maybe I'm jaded, but I just don't think a group of said politicians would vote to create something to take power away from the groups that placed them in power. I think we are stuck with corruption.

Who knows... maybe after some great unforeseen catastrophe and the demise of the USA, the next government will be run by algorithms that will read the wishes of each individual and then calculate the best political decisions to achieve the aggregated will of the masses... like the apparent consensus of how a bee hive looks when it swarms and moves to a new location.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27383229 - 07/11/21 02:47 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

yeah algorithms, but they have to be implemented in such a way that they can be revised, by deliberation and authorized approval.

The future of governance will be a plastic system/automation that can be reformed/edited by qualified authorities (techies) under the supervision of a qualified political body (candidates must at least understand Robert's Rules of Order, and be able to attend and conduct meetings), legally answerable to the courts and to the people.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27383366 - 07/11/21 05:16 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Why fight them?

Don't fall for their lies.

Quote:

The analysis undercuts arguments by some company executives and trade groups that Biden’s plan would leave U.S. firms paying some of the world’s highest taxes and struggling to compete against foreign rivals. Industry representatives have aggressively lobbied against the proposal, which would increase the corporate tax rate to 28%, from the current 21%. The president also wants a minimum tax of 21% on overseas income, up from 10.5%.

U.S. corporations typically pay less - sometimes much less - than those statutory rates because the U.S. tax code is unusually generous with tax breaks and deductions, and in allowing overseas tax planning, according to the Reuters analysis. The analysis was reviewed by four academics with experience in measuring corporate tax payments.

Reuters examined the effective tax rates – reflecting the actual tax payments companies reported – of 52 of the largest U.S.-based multinational firms, and then compared them to the rates paid by these companies’ main overseas competitors. The U.S. companies paid an average effective tax rate of 16% in 2020 compared to an average rate of 24% paid by 200 foreign companies that the U.S. firms named as their competitors in filings.

If Biden’s proposed tax rates were applied to the U.S. firms’ 2020 earnings, the companies would have paid effective rates averaging about five percentage points higher, or 21%, the Reuters analysis found.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/even-after-biden-tax-hike-us-firms-would-pay-less-than-foreign-rivals-2021-06-22/




There's also a difference between income tax and capitol gains tax, so that even if you increase the income tax on billionaires, they often don't feel the pinch because they make their income from capitol gains/assets.

Quote:

ProPublica found that while the median American household earning roughly $70,000 per year paid 14% in federal taxes each year, the 25 richest Americans (by Forbes’ tally) paid a “true tax rate” of just 3.4% on wealth growth of $401 billion between 2014 and 2018

According to ProPublica’s analysis, billionaire investor Warren Buffett, an advocate of higher taxes on the rich, saw his wealth grow by more than $24 billion from 2014 to 2018 and paid a true tax rate of 0.10%—a reflection of the fact that he reported just $125 million in income during that period, makes large charitable contributions and (since he pays himself a minimal salary), most of his income comes in the form of lower-taxed capital gains.

Amazon founder and CEO Jeff Bezos paid a true tax rate of 0.98% as his wealth grew by a staggering $99 billion between 2014 and 2018; he reported just $4.22 billion in reported income during the same period

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/sarahhansen/2021/06/08/richest-americans-including-bezos-musk-and-buffett-paid-federal-income-taxes-equaling-just-34-of-401-billion-in-new-wealth-bombshell-report-shows/amp/




Gerrymandering and voter suppression are rampant, heck Republicans rely on it in their own words.

Quote:

Top Trump adviser: Republicans have ‘always’ relied on voter suppression

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/21/trump-adviser-republicans-voter-suppression




Quote:

Trump says Republicans would ‘never’ be elected again if it was easier to vote

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/30/trump-republican-party-voting-reform-coronavirus




The problem is though, Democrats are economically just as bad, the only difference is that they put rainbow flags on their missiles, and maybe they wouldn't tell people to inject bleach but that's a low bar.

There was some hope in progressive grass roots movements but they seem to have been quashed or their elected officials fight has wayned, maybe a new wave in 2022 has hope.

Maybe they need algorithms to read what people want because the people in charge definitely don't care about polls and surveys of what American's want. Background checks, Medicare etc.


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Invisible2sky
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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27395596 - 07/20/21 07:07 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

The top 1 percent own 90 percent of the country

and when Trump cut corporate taxes from 35 percent to 20 percent, who benefited ?

- They Live - 1982


--------------------
To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho


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Re: Growth [Re: 2sky]
    #27395779 - 07/20/21 09:09 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I think Bezos is a great example of the problem with the US tax system.

What I'm about to say isn't political, so please try not to polarize it. I did part of my masters thesis on Amazon. The company pays almost zero in taxes because they use a system called Base Erosion and Profit Shifting ("BEPS"). Some people also call it "transfer pricing" but its really just BEPS. Transfer pricing actually refers to the assigned cost of smuggling the revenue-generating business OUT of the US.

It doesn't matter if they raise the corporate taxes to 50% or cut them to 10% in our current situation, because:

They set up dummy corporations in Ireland, Holland, and other international corporate tax havens. This is usually followed by a "tax reform treaty" and then some token employees being sent over to Ireland, which grows every year. Now Ireland has huge numbers of Amazon employees. Anytime a corporation makes money, they point at the other dummy subsidiary corporations in other countries so that nobody makes any money. Here is a diagram of Amazon's shell subsidiary corporations designed to erode their profits away from the US and launder them over to other nations for the purpose of tax structuring:



For reference, here is a diagram of Enron's shell subsidiary corporations:



If you study it, you can see a lot of common patterns. I shall translate it into non-financial English. "Its all a bunch of bullcrap so that they can use shell corporations to move money around to make it disappear and reappear to their advantage. Same crap. Different companies."

Here is a little video that provides a grossly oversimplified explanation of transfer pricing:

>

This isn't just Bezos doing this. Your favorite and most hated multinational corporations are probably already doing this or are struggling to try to implement BEPS strategies so that they can in the near future.

When we lower corporate taxes at home, we bring in fewer taxes. When we raise corporate taxes at home, the BEPS divisions at the big accounting firms will triple in size overnight and their clients all start a mass exodus so they can start down the path to paying less than 1% in effective corporate taxes.

Canada has a pretty good solution for all of this. They just ignore all of the corporate shell game BS and tax them anyways, with no written way of justifying it. "Nope, not having it." The IRS could just do that too, but they don't. Not sure why.

We have practically forced all of these companies to leave and go to Ireland. Ireland is in the biggest economic growth boom ever now. They try to put everything they can over there in Ireland. The Repubicans and the Democrats are to blame for this situation. No nice way to say it. No polarizing it. You can't "Vote for Jethro" and fix it.

But certainly, a simple tax hike will do NOTHING to these corporations like Amazon, Apple, Bank of America, Google, and other big multinationals.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27395785 - 07/20/21 09:17 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

<sarcasm>
Incidentally, if you have a tax liability of over $10 million and are interested to reduce that to near zero, just contact one of the big accounting firms, ask for the BEPS / Transfer Pricing department, and they will fix you all up. Pay them $1 million in fees instead and they'll hook you all up with your very own IRS-approved BEPS strategy, fully compliant with all OECD international tax guidelines so that you too can avoid paying taxes. Totally legal.
</sarcasm>


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27396058 - 07/21/21 04:04 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

all I need is my first 10 million


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Invisible2sky
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Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28399476 - 07/18/23 08:10 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
<sarcasm>
Incidentally, if you have a tax liability of over $10 million and are interested to reduce that to near zero, just contact one of the big accounting firms, ask for the BEPS / Transfer Pricing department, and they will fix you all up. Pay them $1 million in fees instead and they'll hook you all up with your very own IRS-approved BEPS strategy, fully compliant with all OECD international tax guidelines so that you too can avoid paying taxes. Totally legal.
</sarcasm>




the Waltons make one hundred million dollars a day as their share for sending our jobs and TECHNOLOGY to China, so how much tax do they pay?


--------------------
To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho


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