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Invisible2sky
a friend of Narnia
Male
Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 119
Loc: the Dawn
Growth
    #27365419 - 06/27/21 05:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

on a fixed and finite planet,

every time the population doubles there is only half as much of everything for everyone

the Kingsmen 2015

- X -

and the devil's daughter crept up out of the water saying: Reverend Lee, Reverend Lee, oh, won't you do it to me

Sixteen Tons - the weavers


--------------------
To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Growth [Re: 2sky]
    #27365489 - 06/27/21 06:40 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

kinda self destructive, right?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27365549 - 06/27/21 07:34 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

kinda


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InvisibleSamantabhadra
Infinite Singularity

Registered: 04/27/21
Posts: 66
Re: Growth [Re: laughingdog]
    #27366485 - 06/28/21 04:12 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

If only we could get energy from the Sun...


--------------------
The actual essence, pristine gnosis,
cannot be improved upon, so virtue is profitless,
and it cannot be impaired, so vice is harmless;
absent of karma there is no ripening of pleasure or pain
absent of judgement, no preference for samsara or nirvana
~Longchenpa


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Growth [Re: Samantabhadra]
    #27366491 - 06/28/21 04:16 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

eat plant material


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Growth [Re: Samantabhadra]
    #27366994 - 06/29/21 12:42 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Samantabhadra said:
If only we could get energy from the Sun...




Don't be dissing on the Sun yo, all that we have is driven via the:sun:

Plus there's more food right now than is needed but the logistics of distributing it are not cost effective of efficient. Land is an issue and water will become a greater one.

Can you imagine if the greatest 'spiritual' awakening to strike this earth came in the form of a dagger through gods heart?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleSwing2
Let it rain

Registered: 06/07/21
Posts: 172
Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27370686 - 07/01/21 04:27 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I like warmth.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
Re: Growth [Re: Swing2]
    #27372254 - 07/02/21 09:09 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah it takes about 80 acres of land to support one meat-eating person, but a vegan can be supported entirely from less than an acre of good farmland. The carrying capacity of of the earth can be substantially increased for humans by simply eating vegan.

The way to de facto impose that upon a free populace is to stop issuing new permits to build any beef/pork/poultry facilities at all, and impose passive taxes on less efficient farms:

This will force price increases on these foods and current farmers (who already have permits) will embrace the new laws. Then start demanding that farms must comply with strict fossil fuel efficiency standards, and must use solar. The inefficient (id est small farms) will go under, as has been the trend, and the only the big efficient farms will be able to survive. Supply/demand forces will reduce the consumption of pizza, tacos, and hamburgers. The old guard of big efficient farm owners will profit greatly, that guy you know who drives a V-dub bus with a PETA sticker on it will be smiling from ear-to-ear, and the average consumer will just consume less meat because its just too darn expensive. I think over 100 years a plan along that line could increase the carrying capacity of the earth at least 20 fold.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisible2sky
a friend of Narnia
Male
Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 119
Loc: the Dawn
Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27372256 - 07/02/21 09:12 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

There's about a 10 percent reserve in the world's maximum GMO food production capacity. So how long do you think it is going to take before we have to move on to algae and seaweed?

- or as an alternative, in the past when there were famines in India the poor had to sell their babies for food. And the one thing all the great lands of over population know is that life is cheap.


--------------------
To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
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Re: Growth [Re: 2sky] * 1
    #27372262 - 07/02/21 09:32 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I eat seaweed all the time. Is super nutritious and I think it tastes great. I am pretty hard core in this stuff... and I can't STAND eating algae. I mean, YUCK. Unless you make it into chocolate balls or something. Unfortunately, 90% of the populace ain't gunna eat any of that crap.

If we made non-vegan foods mondo expensive to the point where people just cut way back on it, and increase our carrying capacity by 20 fold, that's a global population carrying capacity of 156 billion. If you look at the UN projections of global population, it's not anywhere near that high over the next hundred years. So, if people go vegan, we can let'r rip and go up in population like the UN says we will for another 100 years without any shortage of non-aquatic plant based food.

Fuel is another matter.

I do think algae is going to be a big part of our distant future for producing renewable oil from the power of the sun, in a manner that is part of the natural carbon cycle (as opposed to de-sequestering carbon from fossil fuels).

Solar is great no matter how you look at it.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Growth [Re: 2sky] * 1
    #27372378 - 07/03/21 01:21 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Logistics is the problem that makes it hard to get excess food from point A to point B..

Algae is already a growing industry. Easy protein etc.

Unfortunately some places like India will probably face greater food struggles along growing populations over other countries like the US.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27372380 - 07/03/21 01:24 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

We made organic foods more expensive and that didn't cut down the demand so much to stop it.. like what are you talking, a 300 dollar slice of cheese?

How does one go about increasing the carrying capacity for a population by 20 fold around the globe? Or maybe the flat earth, I dunno what you believe.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (07/03/21 03:20 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
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Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 27 days, 21 hours
Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27372410 - 07/03/21 02:58 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Yeah it takes about 80 acres of land to support one meat-eating person, but a vegan can be supported entirely from less than an acre of good farmland. The carrying capacity of of the earth can be substantially increased for humans by simply eating vegan.

The way to de facto impose that upon a free populace is to stop issuing new permits to build any beef/pork/poultry facilities at all, and impose passive taxes on less efficient farms:

This will force price increases on these foods and current farmers (who already have permits) will embrace the new laws. Then start demanding that farms must comply with strict fossil fuel efficiency standards, and must use solar. The inefficient (id est small farms) will go under, as has been the trend, and the only the big efficient farms will be able to survive. Supply/demand forces will reduce the consumption of pizza, tacos, and hamburgers. The old guard of big efficient farm owners will profit greatly, that guy you know who drives a V-dub bus with a PETA sticker on it will be smiling from ear-to-ear, and the average consumer will just consume less meat because its just too darn expensive. I think over 100 years a plan along that line could increase the carrying capacity of the earth at least 20 fold.




Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Well, I eat seaweed all the time. Is super nutritious and I think it tastes great. I am pretty hard core in this stuff... and I can't STAND eating algae. I mean, YUCK. Unless you make it into chocolate balls or something. Unfortunately, 90% of the populace ain't gunna eat any of that crap.

If we made non-vegan foods mondo expensive to the point where people just cut way back on it, and increase our carrying capacity by 20 fold, that's a global population carrying capacity of 156 billion. If you look at the UN projections of global population, it's not anywhere near that high over the next hundred years. So, if people go vegan, we can let'r rip and go up in population like the UN says we will for another 100 years without any shortage of non-aquatic plant based food.

Fuel is another matter.

I do think algae is going to be a big part of our distant future for producing renewable oil from the power of the sun, in a manner that is part of the natural carbon cycle (as opposed to de-sequestering carbon from fossil fuels).

Solar is great no matter how you look at it.




This is wildly oversimplified and misinformed, my friend.

Propaganda is inescapable from all sides.

You cannot escape that level of this consciousness matrix program.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


Edited by Loaded Shaman (07/03/21 03:21 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Growth [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27372433 - 07/03/21 04:03 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

but really, how many billions do we need to be alive at the same time.
some birth control makes sense.
Sure grow less inefficient beef - great ideas there with taxing and solar. but for climate not for carrying capacity.

My favorite sardines are already too expensive!
I need water, sardines, kasha, potato perogies and fresh veggies. but I'm just one of 7.7 billion.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
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Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
Re: Growth [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27372530 - 07/03/21 07:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Logistics is the problem that makes it hard to get excess food from point A to point B..

Unfortunately some places like India will probably face greater food struggles along growing populations over other countries like the US.




Yep.

Quote:

sudly said:
We made organic foods more expensive and that didn't cut down the demand so much to stop it.. like what are you talking, a 300 dollar slice of cheese?





There's a good question.

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
This is wildly oversimplified and misinformed, my friend.

Propaganda is inescapable from all sides.




Wildly oversimplified to be sure, but you can't fairly say I'm misinformed in general. I said so many different things I don't know which one to back up with citations from peer-reviewed studies. Pick one specific item, and lets start with that.

I hope you weren't questioning the validity of my personal distaste for eating algae. Blegh! Not willing to do a double blind test for you to prove I don't like it.

As for propaganda, am I biased towards or against corporate farmers, or towards or against vegans as a result of this propaganda which evidently sways me? Or are we talking about the bias of the UN?

By implying that I garnered my thoughts from propaganda, you assume I have not been immersed in the scholarly literature on this subject. For all you know, I could be employed at a think tank that works on this very subject for PETA or for Bayer (f.k.a. Monsanto).

When talking to people on the internet, don't assume they are rich or poor, so to speak.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
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Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27372532 - 07/03/21 07:36 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I like to be critiqued... but to summarily dismiss someone denies them the chance to learn.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
Re: Growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27372536 - 07/03/21 07:41 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I agree. At some point climate comes into the equation. Where, I don't know.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27372608 - 07/03/21 09:00 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

it is part of the pain of mismanagement, kind of like missing the last payment on an overdue bill.

Global warming is the planet's collection department.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Growth [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27373396 - 07/03/21 11:31 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

There are inefficiencies in the use of agricultural lands, and intergrating higher vegetable content into diets would help to increase the carrying capacity, however, it's not as simple as going vegan because not all land is the same. There are a variety of different land types that support different uses, and I don't think that oversimplifying this information is useful to your cause in the long run.

Quote:

Since production of different types of food requires different types of agricultural land, researchers distinguished among three distinct categories of land: grazing land, cultivated cropland and perennial forage cropland. They found that the five diets containing the largest quantities of meat used all of the available cropland and grazing land. The five diets containing little or no meat still used the maximum available area of cultivated cropland but varied widely in their use of forage and grazing land. The vegan diet relied solely on the land suited to growing crops, using none of the available grazing or forage land.

When the number of people who can be fed from the available agricultural land was estimated, results revealed that reducing meat in the diet increases the number of people who could be supported by existing farmland. Estimates of the number of people who could be fed ranged from a 402 million people for the “business as usual” diet to 807 million people in the lacto vegetarian scenario. The vegan diet, surprisingly, fed fewer people than two of the omnivore diets and both of the other vegetarian diets, suggesting food choices that make use of grazing and forage land as well as cropland could feed more people than those that completely eliminate animal-based food from our diets.

The researchers concluded that a strategic shift toward a plant-based diet could reduce the amount of land needed to feed U.S. consumers and at the same time increase the number of people who can be fed from our agricultural resources. The result could be more food — without the need to clear more land — for hundreds of millions of people around the globe.

https://ensia.com/notable/which-diet-makes-best-use-of-farmland-you-might-be-surprised/




What is your source for omnivorous diets requiring 80 acres of land per person?

Quote:

Instead of the usual value of 1.04 acres per person (335 million acres for 322 million persons), the ratio becomes 0.535 acres per person. And this answers the question as to what amount of land is needed for a complete vegan diet: just over half an acre

https://hungermath.wordpress.com/2015/10/22/amount-of-land-needed-for-full-vegan-diet/




Why would the V-dub driver be happy that big meat corporations have created a monopoly on the meat industry?

And the banning of any new meat farms is a rather fantastical suggestion imo.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Growth [Re: sudly]
    #27373675 - 07/04/21 07:47 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
There are inefficiencies in the use of agricultural lands, and intergrating higher vegetable content into diets would help to increase the carrying capacity, however, it's not as simple as going vegan because not all land is the same. There are a variety of different land types that support different uses, and I don't think that oversimplifying this information is useful to your cause in the long run.




That's true. There is a certain amount of grazing land that is just too rocky and hilly to be put into useful production for food crops. That land can easily be used to graze beef.

Most of our beef today comes from feed lots, where cattle are confined together and fed corn to finish them for market. So, if we preserve grazing beef production, that would still result in a substantial increase in the number of acres made available for human food.

I think oversimplification is the only way a subject like this can be discussed by lay people, but I have to agree, its not really useful for us. More just for discussion's sake.

Quote:

sudly said:What is your source for omnivorous diets requiring 80 acres of land per person?



That's a good question. The data we can use to calculate this change from year to year, and vary greatly from country to country. As nations westernize, so do their diets and appetite for things they see on TV, including tacos, pizza, and hamburgers.

As with oil consumption, the U.S. is no longer the primary market pricing determinate. Foreign consumption of meat and dairy products from the new emerging middle class is now the driving factor in global demand. To meet the oncoming flood of demand, dairy farms will consolidate, improve genetics and animal care techniques, improve efficiencies, and expand substantially. The bulk of this expansion is going to have to come from the United States, as no other nation has the infrastructure to meet the oncoming demand.

So, nobody really has a specific number that they can use for this forecast of how much we will need with much accuracy. The US isn't really a good representative example because we import more beef than anyone in the world and are also the world's largest exporter of beef, which seems counterintuitive (we export fine cuts and import low-grade beef for making ground beef). So, how much beef/dairy/pork/poultry is "needed" by a person is highly subjective! Also, to just use a generalization about land is highly subjective too, because 80 acres of California land is different than 80 acres of Midwest cornbelt land. So, I think for very light discussion like this, we could use some numbers based on land that would have otherwise been used to grow feedcorn. Farm land is often measured by 40's. The settlers took land by 40's, and most of the land in the cornbelt today is still held in 40, 80, 120, and 160 acre parcels. So, using some pretty rough rounding (its hard to have any significant figures when we are dealing with data that contains so many estimates), you can use your favorite source of data for the question of "how much land is needed to support one person" and their calculations will be as good as my own. I'm not going to say that my own rounded calculations are any better than someone else's, but I have a hard time believing that (given the data we have available) that anyone could produce numbers with a whole lot more certainty than I did. So the short answer is that 80 acres is a rough guess (based upon production data from Midwest crop land and an American diet), and anyone else's figure is too. That's why I rounded down.

Quote:

sudly said:Why would the V-dub driver be happy that big meat corporations have created a monopoly on the meat industry?



Constraining supply would cause a significant reduction in the number of innocent animals held in captivity in cruel conditions, to be ground up to be used as unhealthy human food would be the biggest step of progress PETA.

Plus the added bonus that, due to their efficient nature, large corporate farms have less pollution, less waste, less energy consumption, and lower carbon emissions than smaller farms, from a per-cow perspective (Flysjö, Cederbert, Henriksson, & Ledgard, 2012).

Quote:

sudly said:And the banning of any new meat farms is a rather fantastical suggestion imo.



I would recommend speaking with any large farming operation on that. It has become increasingly difficult to get permits to build new farms. A Google search on "dairy farming permit denied" will also yield an abundance of examples that this is already happening. I can tell you from personal experience providing analytical data to large corporate farms, that statistically speaking for the average farming operation, it is not my recommendation to build a new facility on a new site. My recommendation to large corporate farms has been to simply buy a smaller facility and expand it to get over the hurdle of permitting. The legislative environment has not been getting easier either.

If the legislation benefits large corporations and special interest groups, its just a matter of time. Shmucks like you and me don't matter. The same thing happened in the oil industry. There are only a handful of refineries. To get a permit to build a new oil refinery in the US is nearly impossible. Not technically "monopoly" but profitable for the small handful of remaining refineries to be sure.



Flysjö, A., Cederbert, C., Henriksson, M., Ledgard, S. (2012). The interaction between milk and beef production and emissions from land use change: Critical considerations in life cycle assessment and carbon footprint studies of milk. Journal of Cleaner Production, 28(12) 134-142.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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