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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27405667 - 07/28/21 01:25 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not really sure why you would expect a capitalist nation to accommodate socialism in any meaningful way.  It's not like socialism is up to a vote.  Arguably, capitalism is protected under the Constitution.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Enlil]
    #27406241 - 07/28/21 08:17 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I’m not expecting that at all. If enough people on the “left” gave up on that expectation, something meaningful might be done. But right now, most folks are hoping to reform the Democratic Party into a socialist party, despite every signal that the power structure intends on preventing that by any means necessary.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27406363 - 07/28/21 09:27 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Like what?

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27406730 - 07/29/21 08:01 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

You actually believe that most folks want a socialist party?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Kryptos]
    #27406731 - 07/29/21 08:02 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Like what as in something meaningful or like what as in the power structure preventing a democratic takeover?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Enlil]
    #27406738 - 07/29/21 08:04 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You actually believe that most folks want a socialist party?




Not even close, but enough within the Democratic Party want a more progressive agenda that should warrant the leverage to push piecemeal reforms like a public option, or increased taxes on the rich, something easy like that. But it doesn’t warrant that leverage because the Democrats would rather lose (and guarantee corporate servitude) than win with a socialist, which is clearly the case.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27406745 - 07/29/21 08:08 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Those policies clearly aren't socialist.  I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.  If you're lamenting the fact that socialism can't happen in this country under the current constitution, fine.  That's not the "power structure" doing it as much as the structure of our entire system from its inception.  If you're upset that progressive policies aren't being implemented as quickly as you'd like, that's fine too....but that's always going to be the case, since you're an "everything right now" kinda guy.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Enlil]
    #27406760 - 07/29/21 08:17 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

That couldn’t be farther from the truth. This socialist mayor isn’t making socialist demands, from what I’ve seen. Socialist is just what Americans call someone who wants to use public funds for the betterment of the public. If someone’s got a clip of her calling for the nationalization of industries or a dictatorship of the working class I’d be delighted to watch it.

A socialist in the Democratic Party dreams of a big ol sandwich, but quickly realizes the most they’ll get inside this framework is maybe a few bread crusts. And then momentum builds for the Get A Single Crumb Act, and Democratic leaders still say no. I’m frustrated about the sandwich, sure, and the bread crusts, but what draws most of my ire in the day to day is how vehemently the ruling class sabotages the Crumb Act. I’m sure most people feel the same, but they also feel they have nowhere to turn, so they keep voting Democrat in the hopes that someday somehow the Pelosis and Schumers and Bidens’ hearts will grow 3 sizes and finally pass the Crumb Act. Would the Crumb Act pass if there was a progressive third party that could play spoiler in the election process? Maybe. It’s funny because you’re right, most people don’t want a socialist party, to whatever degree the millennials and zoomers are socialists is debatable, since Americans can’t define words correctly. But still, the allure is there for something different, and that something could pose a serious threat to the power structure. So why not just nip that in the bud and give us the crumbs? Seems like an easy enough solution, and an easy enough goal for progressives. And yet here we are.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27406800 - 07/29/21 08:54 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

If there was some grand conspiracy to keep the people's will at bay, your logic would be solid.  There isn't though.  We have 536 people in DC who are necessarily "safe" choices for candidates.  People don't like fast change and they don't vote for outliers.  That's just the way it works.  It doesn't take corporate interference or a cabal of illuminati.  It just takes standard human frailty.

Big thinkers with big ideas can thrive in America, but not so much in politics.  Change will necessarily be slow and necessarily be several steps behind the American ethos.  This means there will always be plenty of people like you who wonder what's taking so fucking long.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27406814 - 07/29/21 09:06 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I think you’re smart enough to know that there is tremendous political and economic value in pacifying the mob, but that fact is a detriment to your argument.

Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post, a newspaper that loses money, for $250M. Why do you suppose?

Can we skip this argument so we don’t have to argue about William Randolph Hearst or Operation Mockingbird for 10 pages? To whatever varying extent, those in power bend the will of the people with propaganda.

I can see why it’s nice to believe that “the arc of history is long but always bends towards justice” stuff, but thats not how history works. I didn’t think people would still lend credibility to it after we saw Trump get elected, especially since his side wants to go backwards to 1950 and his opposition wants to go backwards to 2008. “People don’t like fast change and don’t vote for outliers.” I’m pretty sure you’re aware of what happened in 2016. There’s no progress, no vision for progress, and that’s not the fault of the voters, where your argument conveniently places blame. Voters can elect a “socialist,” and the ruling class will just change the rules. If you did it in a different country, our ruling class would just kill you. There is a shitload of money and power at play and it’s foolish to think any one of those people who currently wield it would risk losing either on the whims of the average pleb. And this is of course ignoring the will of all the people who don’t see the utility in voting in the first place.  The biggest victories for progress in this country’s history weren’t achieved at the ballot box.


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Edited by The Ecstatic (07/29/21 09:12 AM)

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27406832 - 07/29/21 09:30 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I think you're overestimating the size of the mob.

It's like the "silent majority" that republicans keep talking about. It's like, a 30% 'majority' if we're being generous.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Kryptos]
    #27407182 - 07/29/21 01:01 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

The mob is 99% of us, we all just get pacified and our energy redirected in different ways. That’s why we don’t talk about politics in terms of class, the power that the average person has there would be striking. Instead we talk about politics in terms of parties, race, sexual orientation, whether you’re pro this or anti that, etc.

Most of it is just culture war bullshit. The A/C repair guy doesn’t oppose taxes on the rich because he sincerely believes in trickle down economics or any objective measure, he opposes it because liberals are for it and they’re pussies. And since he’s not a pussy, one day he’ll own a bunch of A/C repair shops and be rich too.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27407388 - 07/29/21 03:16 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Feel like I had this conversation with wolf about assange a little while ago.

Yeah. So?

They don't care, and until you can make them care, they will actively oppose you. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Kryptos]
    #27407516 - 07/29/21 04:51 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Until someone comes out with some psychological vaccine against propaganda, I’ll respect anyone who even tries to “make them care.”


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27408048 - 07/30/21 01:56 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Probably the difference between Americans and people who accept some degrees of socialism is that we haven't been destroyed in two world wars or similar calamities. By the time something like that happens to us, I don't think there will be time left to create a more humane social system.

Like you say, the AC guy does believe he'll be rich someday. But there is no vaccine against propaganda. There always has been and always will be propaganda, its just a matter of whose story and whose interests are being served. There's no reason to be optimistic here, except maybe in very small doses, and that's if we're lucky.

It could happen if we stop being the world power or one of the top few, but I don't think us becoming less exploitive is going to make China or whoever else fills the power void follow suit.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27408154 - 07/30/21 07:14 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
It’s more about intent than what they’re actually able to accomplish, which begs the question: what have they done with this intent, and accomplished, that we don’t know about

If they’re (explicitly) willing to abolish the position of mayor in a (relatively) small city just to keep city funds from being reallocated away from the police and the rich, what else have they done ? What else will they do?

We had a discussion about reform v revolution in a different thread, and this is pertinent to that debate. Of what use is reform when the house will change the rules if you even come close to altering the smallest thing? Of course they probably won’t actually pull this off, but it’s a window into the playbook of capital: they’ll completely restructure how city government works before they let a “socialist” have an influential position in the process, but then at the same time refuse to do anything about the filibuster (because in that instance, the structures in place benefit capital).

People want to say “we live in a democracy, just vote!” but what happens when we elect a Bernie type figure as president, and both parties decide to abolish the presidency? This development should be alarming, not because it will happen, but because it’s being floated as a legitimate option.




I understand your argument, but "being floated as a legitimate option" is an awfully speculative phrase. Am I missing something in the link, because all I see is one guy named Wyatt introducing a resolution, which might mean nothing. If they did this and got away with it that would be a subversion of democracy, and if you lived in Buffalo I would give you credit for at least trying to sound the alarm, but I'm not sure if there is even a story here.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27408280 - 07/30/21 09:53 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

What needs to happen to meet the parameters of it being floated as an option?

Democratic legislators in Buffalo are considering it, enough that the media is discussing it. Are you not familiar with how political ideas are floated? This is how. You leak a bit of info to the media and gauge the public response, then you know how to proceed.

If some Republican city council was mulling over abolishing the seat of mayor because a democrat won, it would make national headlines.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27408324 - 07/30/21 10:34 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
If some Republican city council was mulling over abolishing the seat of mayor because a democrat won, it would make national headlines.




Not until they actually started passing resolutions with a majority of the legislature.

That's what happened in WI and NC.

Of course, some small time journalists/gossip rags might pick up on proposals, like the gun ownership requirement from...what was it, Arkansas? Kansas? One of those central US shitholes.

Other times, proposals might be floated for the purposes of satire, like how that one lady floated the idea of a law that required men to track their ejaculations and report them to the state of GA.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27408393 - 07/30/21 11:49 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

lol I forgot about that, but yeah I get y’all’s point. I’ve been following the aftermath of the primary election but it’s practically a mathematical certainty at this point that a vaguely left figure ousting the established democrat in a primary necessitates the local/state/national party putting effort into undermining their own ticket. They probably won’t do anything too drastic, but there’s evidence of this type of fuckery everywhere. Bernie Sanders had to launch fundraisers for the Nevada Democratic Party because, after the DSA candidates seized power, the Harry Reid progeny stole all the money during the lame duck session. Right now, Democratic leaders are lining up behind Shontel Brown (who’s on the verge of an ethics investigation) in the Cleveland House special election, all because the Bernie wing figure Nina Turner is up there by like 30 points in the polls.

I think there’s significance in pointing out this bullshit during a time where the Democrats are doing little else but grandstanding about how much they cherish democracy and the will of the voters.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialist Mayor of Buffalo [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27455082 - 09/03/21 04:00 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

A judge has ordered that Byron Brown (the guy who lost the primary) be placed on the ballot. The judge’s brother just happens to be a major donor to Brown.

https://twitter.com/georgerichert4/status/1433834193788805148?s=21


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