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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: AncestralWisdom]
    #27359072 - 06/22/21 06:14 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

the thread is full of different people telling you it won't work. IDK how you were confused.


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OfflineAncestralWisdom
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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27359127 - 06/22/21 07:08 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Lol, they all mentioned different reasons, and they didn't agree with each other, and no one commented on the extended boil + steam method or ventured a single reason why that wouldn't work, therefore, I still don't know why it wouldn't work, and I suspect no one on that thread knows why it wouldn't work


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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: AncestralWisdom]
    #27359134 - 06/22/21 07:18 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Multiple people said 2hours at 15psi OR 8 hour steam.

Like 1 or 2 dudes that were new/grew edibles said different and retracted. Look at things like join date, rating, and lastly repetition when deciding who to listen to. I read your thread and it's clear the cube growers that weren't brand new all agreed.

e/ re-read. one dude who was unrated and clearly said he pc'd at 15psi for about an hour and said thanks for correcting him.
there's also this
Quote:

Bakedbeings said:
all i know is i tried steaming grain for 2 hours and it contamed like a muthafucka



Yet you did the exact same thing.


Edited by LtLurker (06/22/21 07:29 PM)


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OfflineAncestralWisdom
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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27359215 - 06/22/21 08:35 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

I did not do the exact same thing. I boiled extensively to sterilize the core, then I steamed. I added an extra step to take care of the most common reason cited for the need for a pressure cooker. There was a lot of disagreement about why a PC was needed (no disagreement as to whether one was needed though).

So, if I bring the core of the grain to the right temperature by boiling and cooking the softened hydrated grains thoroughly, and then steam to sterilize the surface of the grain after drying, why wont the grain be sterilized? I'm not saying I'm right, but no one in that thread could answer that question.


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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: AncestralWisdom]
    #27359228 - 06/22/21 08:48 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

AncestralWisdom said:
There was a lot of disagreement about why a PC was needed (no disagreement as to whether one was needed though).



That shoulda been the take away. We aren't all scientist and know exactly why. Practicing using the search might answer that, i'm sure bod and pasty have answered this a couple times.

I get the train of thought, it's just off track.
If it was feasible people would be steaming immediately after boil so they didn't have to buy a pc.
If you asked the boil question; someone probably woulda told you grains sit to dry before jarring, so your boil has no impact on the sterilizing process.


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InvisibleveggieM

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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: AncestralWisdom]
    #27359314 - 06/22/21 10:01 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

AW, you are going to hate my comment, but I mean well. :smile: You are asking why a process proven to work for people all across the globe works and a process proven to fail doesn't work. It's similar to your original post where you ask if you can treat rye grain the same as a PF cake. No you can't. You can take a brick and stand it up, try and take a handful of marbles shape it into a brick and they fall down. Why? Gravity. Can I explain gravity? No, I can't. And I don't really care. It just works. Same with sterilizing rye grain. It's sterilized at 250 F in a pressure cooker for 90 minutes, not boiled/steamed at 212 F. I never questioned why, it just works, and I don't care. The reason I don't care is because my only goal in doing it is to grow mushrooms as soon as possible, not discover a new way to prep grains.

So if your goal also is to grow mushrooms, that we can help you with. We can help you figure out where you went wrong and fine tune your techniques to be successful. Before there was a PF-Tek everybody just pressure cooked agar, colonized it, and took it to sterilized, pressure cooked grain to fruit or to add to a substrate for a bulk grow. Years later after the PF-Tek came along folks could grow without a pressure cooker. But you can still do bulk grows using that technique, no problem. Now, after a few more years, folks are back using sterilized grain. What goes around comes around. Problems occur when you confuse the two methods and combine them together cutting corners and missing important steps.

The issue now is that you were unsuccessful. That is no big deal. Not at all. Just start again using the proven techniques that work. Just decide whats more important, growing mushrooms, or developing a new way to sterilize grain. I'm hoping it's growing mushrooms, and we can get you there harvesting flush after flush in no time. :thumbup:


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OfflineAncestralWisdom
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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: veggie]
    #27359620 - 06/23/21 06:42 AM (4 months, 19 hours ago)

Thanks for the response! My primary goal is to grow, but my secondary goal is to understand the science of how things work. I worry that people who are "stuck" in a methodology, without knowing why that methodology works, will say the jar I have failed just because the methodology was wrong. The thing is, I haven't found anyone use an extensive boil, followed by a steam.

I'm definitely not saying I'm right, my knowledge base is far to small to assert that, but, I do want to know the "why" as well as the "how". I want knowledge and results! Someone on here must be able to speak to the question I raised, no?


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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27359624 - 06/23/21 06:47 AM (4 months, 19 hours ago)

I used the search, and no one has yet answered this particular question. As for the dry, your answer is plausible, but I doubt the core of a grain would be contaminated in the short drying period, only the outside, which the steam would be able to take care of. The only problem I see with the steam is it doesn't sterilize the core. So, extended boil + steam should work. Again, the only reason I'm more resistant to this not being true is that my eye can't discern any real difference in the mycelium between my PF TEK and rye jars, other than that the PF is thicker due to the nature of the materials. If I could see a difference, I would say right away: yes, it doesn't work. I still wouldn't know exactly why, but I'd be more willing to drop it.


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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: AncestralWisdom]
    #27359756 - 06/23/21 10:03 AM (4 months, 16 hours ago)

It's been answered alot. you just need to use the search right.

This has been beat to death and i'm tired of explaining you're wrong despite what you think makes sense with zero experience. We all been doing this for years and you never done it before. I've given descriptions, links to pictures to compare, and explained how the process is done from years of experience. Your common sense is irrelevant right now. Move on and focus on getting the process right before you experiment.


Edited by LtLurker (06/23/21 10:13 AM)


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OfflineAncestralWisdom
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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: LtLurker]
    #27359839 - 06/23/21 11:20 AM (4 months, 15 hours ago)

Whether steam sterilization alone works to sterilize rye in jars has been beaten to death. My question has not.

I get it, you don't care about the reason as long as you can grow, that is completely fine. Everyone has different goals. I am curious about one scientific aspect of growing that you don't have the answer to. That's OK too.

Common sense being irrelevant is a very strange concept, since you can't scientifically explain the reason, or point to someone who has tried exactly what I did.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not even saying I think it will work, I'm just saying that it seems as if it is starting to work, and before throwing the jars out, I'd like a scientific explanation as to why it doesn't. I know you don't have that explanation, and you don't care to have it, and that's OK. Different strokes. I would imagine someone here would be interested in that though.

Every field I am a part of, or even have a degree in, has it's dogma, some of which is useful wisdom, some incomplete, some useless wastes of time. Being new to this field, I'm curious about the scientific explanation of this particular aspect. As far as I can tell, no one has done the extended boil followed by steam, and most people who I bring this question to just say "no, you can't steam sterilize grains" as if they didn't read or understand my question.

To put it simply to anyone else reading, it seems as if steam sterilization of grain doesn't work because the time it takes the steam to heat the jar, penetrate the rye at the center of the jar, cook that rye, then sterilize the soft core of the rye would be about 8 hours. If I soak and completely cook the rye first, sterilizing the core, then dry quickly, then steam sterilize, the steam would only have to sterilize the outer surface of the rye grain, and would take much much quicker. Would a PC still be quicker and easier? Sure! But why would this method not work? Isn't anyone interested in the intellectual exercise of thinking about this?


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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: AncestralWisdom]
    #27359900 - 06/23/21 12:09 PM (4 months, 14 hours ago)

Your common sense is irrelevant because you have no frame of reference built up.

Do you wanna learn how to grow and do the crawl, walk, run process. Or you wanna argue over some stupid detail the majority of growers don't give 2 shits about? Cause tbh what's happening now is like having a mechanic tell you to replace a pcm, but you spend the whole time arguing about how you should be able to fix it with capacitors and resistors from radio shack, then getting frustrated cause the mechanic says no but can't explain why like he's an electronics engineer.

Everyone did read your question and gave the same answer. Steam 8 hrs, pc 2 hrs @ 15psi. Simple af. You're over thinking. slow down and just grow a mushroom before reinventing the process.

If the question really bugs you so much, then keep digging in the search engine. I'm not doing that for you and the answer is floating around.


Edited by LtLurker (06/23/21 12:16 PM)


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InvisibleveggieM

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Re: Does anyone grow on rye cakes in a sgfc? [Re: AncestralWisdom] * 1
    #27359941 - 06/23/21 12:31 PM (4 months, 13 hours ago)

This thread has run it's course and is now locked. You are 'beating a dead horse' trying to refute science and replace it with a failed experiment. A two second google search yields this:

Quote:

In a single gram of commercial rye, Secale cereale, there is an estimated cell count of 50,000-100,000 bacteria, more than 200,000 actinomyces, 12,000 fungi and a large number of yeasts. To sterilize one gram of grain would require, in effect, the destruction of more than 300,000 contaminants! In a spawn jar containing in excess of a hundred grams of grain, and with the addition of water, the cell population soars to astronomical figures.

Of all the groups of these organisms, bacteria are the most pernicious. Bacteria can divide every twenty or so minutes at room temperature. At this rate, a single bacterium multiplies into more than a million cells in less than ten hours. In another ten hours, each one of these bacteria beget another million cells. If only a small fraction of one percent of these contaminants survive the sterilization process, they can render grain spawn useless within only a few days.

Most microorganisms are killed in the sterilization process. For liquids, the standard time and pressure for steam sterilization is 25 minutes at 15 psi (250 F). For solids such as rye, the sterilization time must be increased to insure that the steam sufficiently penetrates the small air pockets and structural cavities in the grain. Within these cavities bacteria and other thermo-resistant organisms, partially protected from the effects of steam, have a better chance of enduring a shorter sterilization period than a longer one. Hence, a full hour at 15 psi is the minimum time recommended to sterilize jars of rye grain.



Of course, you won't believe this and insist your made up on a whim contam tek is better. Post all the mushrooms pics that result from your experiment at a later date instead of arguing with our Trusted Cultivators.


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