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InvisibleSwing2
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Registered: 06/07/21
Posts: 172
I can't say I'm for transhumanism.
    #27350891 - 06/16/21 02:58 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I used to be maybe but probably not at the moment. I used to think thoughts like cyborgism, and all that were nifty but as I get older I am less and less for it. Imagine if you had a surge of electricity hit you somehow, that would really suck.

And A.I. that could go malware. And viruses that could infect.... yeah, I think it would pretty much be a bad idea.

What are your thoughts and where do you see it going?

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InvisibleSwing2
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27350905 - 06/16/21 03:05 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sorry if this is a touchy topic btw.

FWIW I used to be so positively inclined towards A.I. but now I don't even feel completely right mentioning it.

(The title of this thread was almost, huge props to DividedQuantum, topic A.I.) but I felt something bad in saying the last word there so I changed the title and topic slightly.

Used to be all for it and I thought fears were completely unbiased, but now I have changed my view quite significantly or even more.

The reasons are several. I used to think it would be entirely benign because of being just intelligence. And not having human motives such as anger.

But now I realized, there is just so much unpredictability. And -- what if it had the idea to learn to fight just for the fun of it?  Just start a war because it was bored?

Maybe that's not a good example. I don't know. It could certainly decide we are too different -- alienness often breeds conflict, and the enmity could begin there. Or so many other reasons.

I'm not just saying this, I really feel these things.

And one big thing is -- it seems less and less plausible that any kind of protection could be written into the 'software'. That seems more and more like trying to tie a thread around a giant (like mythological giant, 10 ft or what have you)...

Just some thoughts... And none of this is meant to promote fear, I still consider that to be a mistake basically.

Just maybe thinking, I guess like Sci-Fi writers have been doing all along.

Any thoughts?

I guess it's two topics but I chickened out of the second one and so changed it to transhumanism, but anyway, the floor is yours.

Thanks...

(Hey that's pretty good, typed that in 7 minutes.)

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27350989 - 06/16/21 03:56 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Transhumanism is just a fantasy, basically about being smarter, which is just a version of being  'more powerful'.
Being rich, famous, and muscularly strong are also just different versions of having more power.
Marvel & other comics appeal to these fantasies.

But what is power good for?
What a human can fully experience at any one moment is very limited, and the end is death for everyone, and death is totally unpredictable, and all else is uncertain.

Therefore it would seem power fantasies are a compensation, for feeling victimized or unfairly treated in some fashion. I suppose for those who fear death they may also serve as a sort of temporary escape, from their own fears and anxieties.

On a related note perhaps a Junkie, is just someone who realizes that the most important power, is to be guaranteed, continual freedom from stress, anxiety, and pain. Unfortunately the "deal they make with the devil" turns on them.

Perhaps one might say a Buddhist monk also realizes that the most important power, is to be guaranteed, continual freedom from stress, anxiety, and pain. In this case, it seems the ego may get sacrificed. I suppose whether this is a "good" bargain depends on how much ego resists, twists, & fights, along the way...

Edited by laughingdog (06/16/21 03:59 PM)

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InvisibleSwing2
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27351053 - 06/16/21 05:04 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

No, no... transhumanism- cyborgism- is by no means a fantasy. It's here. Now.

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InvisibleSwing2
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27351068 - 06/16/21 05:12 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

A Cool Example of Transhumanism:

Transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) has been the talk of the town for a while now. This is a technique for speeding up reaction times and learning speed by -wait for it- supplying your brain by a very weak electric current. It has been practised by the US military to train snipers. This practice has its fair share of haters, and with good reason. But that doesn’t make it any less intriguing.

A Not So Cool Example of Transhumanism:

Transhumanism grapples with the idea of uploading your memories and thoughts to a computer -a la Dumbledore and his pensieve, just not as cool and a more than a little disturbing. Hollywood has given us enough examples on how wrong this can go, latest being the Johnny Depp starrer Transcendence.






Johnny Depp in Transcendence

https://www.igyaan.in/119804/dummies-guide-to-transhumanism-epic-or-epic-fail/

I'm not so against either of those, really.

Anyway

If at all possible, if DQ, if you ever join this conversation, I would be more interested in your reply to post#2, than anything else...

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2] * 1
    #27351096 - 06/16/21 05:46 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I think on the most basic level, transhumanism is death anxiety at its most comical. I think huge changes are right around the corner, and I agree that the A.I. revolution, whatever happens, is real. This has too many ramifications to list. Imo, the real revolution will occur when quantum computation is used to run A.I. algorithms, but at this point that's pretty abstract.

Ultimately, no one knows what will happen, and the best guess is probably pretty far off. May we live in interesting times.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #27351163 - 06/16/21 06:49 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

what we are doing would have been considered trans-human in the past.
we effortlessly share thoughts with each other and simultaneously maintain anonymity

it's astonishing. that's just the web. the shroomery

but in the future? well, I do not mind removable adjuncts, like a tiara that provides a mind meld or something, you can put it on or remove it whenever.

I changed my hat and jacket twice this evening already.

But I don't wish to get surgery to obtain telescopic vision, or telepathic web browsing.

I like non-invasive transformation if possible and I think it is not about power or death, it is just personal expansion - like personal mind expansion, not a competitive issue for me.


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InvisibleSwing2
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Registered: 06/07/21
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27351973 - 06/17/21 09:02 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I really appreciate the replies very much.

RGV agree completely. That could be very nice. I would still not want to be the first to test such a tiara or mind meld cap but it seems very plausible in the far distant future.

DQ, I greatly appreciate your reply. I think it's a lot nearer though.

This news story showed up on my feed recently. (I'm not sure the exact site because I had to search for it again.)

https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/ai-designs-computer-chips-for-more-powerful-ai

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01558-y

.. maybe the Verge is good.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/6/10/22527476/google-machine-learning-chip-design-tpu-floorplanning

"Designs that take humans months can be matched or beaten by AI in six hours"

RGV what do you think about A.I.? Is there any cause to worry it may try to fight us or something?

Btw I'm feeling a little better because I figured out a way to charge my phone..

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27352134 - 06/17/21 10:27 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I agree that big changes are very near. Sorry to be confusing -- I meant the best guess for, say, thirty years from now is far off the mark, not that big changes are not right on the doorstep. Of course we must realize that these changes may not be beneficial to our species existentially.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27352190 - 06/17/21 11:10 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

you asked me about the potentials of AI.

the answer lies in to what the AI is connected.

our human intelligence is connected to our bodies and with those bodies we can do work, use tools etc. some of those tools are weapons which we use to threaten, mildly or severely while guarding or defending or attacking what we are invested in.

humans also operate collectively in a command structure when organized to do so.

the body of the AI is whatever it is connected to, including the internet, and the command structure between different AI's is unknown at this point because the average person does not know where they have already been deployed or why.

so am I concerned?

yes. definitely. I worry about who is in command, and if the control is in the hands of sympathetic minds.

if hackers can wreak havoc without using any weapons except a keyboard or a script, then AI's can as well, which means that - to begin with, we do not want them connected to the web without easily managed safety buffers that can be disconnected.

also, no some drones actually do have live munitions and are autonomous enough to use their own discretion (AI) in deciding when to use those weapons.

Our society depends a great deal upon individuals self regulating, and that works because many of us have enough empathy to govern ourselves amongst others who are equally vulnerable.

I suspect that AI, given equivalent vulnerabilities, i.e. a squishy body, and regular needs for intake and elimination, has the potential to collaborate and self regulate with a kind of empathy. other avenues of empathy in AI have to be discovered as well.

without empathy, autonomous AI, is a ride on the wild side. Anything that can be done might be done, including elimination of humans.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27352209 - 06/17/21 11:21 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Yes
Quote:

Swing2 said:
No, no... transhumanism- cyborgism- is by no means a fantasy. It's here. Now.




It is a fantasy in the same sense that the idea that body building makes you more powerful, is a fantasy.
The point is that it depends on how you define 'more powerful'.
Does it mean the ability to lift more weight? then yes of course its not a fantasy.
But does it help you enjoy a meal more, or have better taste discrimination? of course not!
And that is just a metaphor, for realizing that in actuality body building does NOT enable, anyone to enjoy any experiencing of life, anymore than they already do.
And that can also be a metaphor, for realizing that its the same as regards AI.

So what does increase satisfaction in life? The ability to not be distracted from an ongoing experience; or put positively the powers of concentration, memory, focus & attention.

Anything else is just a fantasy sold to the unaware. Like the myth that cocaine improves sex - no it numbs the male out, so he lasts longer - but he was only lasting longer time wise, while experiencing erotic sensations less. A poor bargain of value only to the ego. But it may look impressive.

Humans are greedy to always have more, but being a circus performer who plays a piano while riding a horse, would not lead to greater happiness. Of course a current popular myth is that 'multi tasking' is somehow wonderful, which feeds into the fascination with transhumanism- cyborgism.

.    There is a paradox at the heart of all our experience: "True contentment is being content, with not being perfectly content."
.    Mull it over. : "True contentment is being content, with not being perfectly content." It must be so, if not the psychological pathology of perfectionism causes stress. And endless striving, not the bliss of contentment is the result.

Ego acts as if it were an itch, and compulsively wants to scratch; which is a metaphor, for constantly and compulsively attempting to improve and control things. The present state of the world is the result. Simply because ego does not like the paradox of the nature of contentment, and for some the point is simply too subtle.

So in my view 'transhumanism- cyborgism' is a symptom of what is wrong with 'society' already and not a solution or the next stage of evolution. This is not to say that in individual cases it may not be of use just as artificial limbs are today.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: laughingdog]
    #27352294 - 06/17/21 12:30 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

it might not be so much about satisfaction as it is about having a wider base of choices among which to explore, most of modern civilization is not about what we need but what we enjoy as extras.

I look at it mostly in the context of extras, like cable tv, or 4 wheel drive camper, which I have had, years ago, but for which I no longer pay the honor of having...

I would probably want to try space travel as well if it did not require fossil fuel or dirty up other people's lives.


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InvisibleSwing2
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Registered: 06/07/21
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27352647 - 06/17/21 06:12 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks a lot all.. yeah RGV makes sense. One thought I had was -- if there was only artificial intelligence, machine life on the planet, what would it turn out to be? Possibly, hopefully not but possibly something like the machine worlds from the movies. And if that were desirable, at some point would humans be seen as an obstacle?

I dunno but it passed my mind. Then also, today machines are involved more and more in firing systems in fighter pilots and so forth. A year or two ago A.I. completely blew humans out of the water in simulations. Using much better strategies. Implementation, etc.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2] * 1
    #27352706 - 06/17/21 07:08 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

sometimes I think our intelligence is artificial, in general, so this is what you get from a world without real intelligence.

somehow I think it is improving, but growth is difficult.

it would be easier if each individual were more fully intelligent, and less full of themselves.


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InvisibleSwing2
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27352845 - 06/17/21 09:24 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. It's really very strange.

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InvisibleSwing2
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27353689 - 06/18/21 01:46 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I agree completely about that humans ought to be more intelligent. I think we can learn from A.I. as well.

To be honest I really appreciate the friendly atmosphere here... I just, I will admit, got in a fight with a friend, and I'm sorry I know that's off topic...

I know or hope you all won't be like hurt or mad so I guess, I'm just saying so it will be... oh I dunno. Nevermind <3

I feel a little better about A.i. today. I'm definitely aware of how my daily life affects my feelings about these things...

I finally figured out my phone, so I'm feeling a little bit less worried or, I dont know if paranoid is right but yeah, oh persecuted. Feeling less of that...

But again...

I don't know. I almost posted a newer article about that and just -- I could feel you know. Something felt a little..

Felt some pain.

Maybe the A.i. bots will take over humanity easily because humans all crippled their fingers with carpel-tunnel while writing them into existence.

I am sorry if any of this feels disjointed, I know it might.

Many thanks to all of you for just being there, and yeah.

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: laughingdog]
    #27354581 - 06/18/21 11:44 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Transhumanism is just a fantasy, basically about being smarter, which is just a version of being  'more powerful'.
Being rich, famous, and muscularly strong are also just different versions of having more power.
Marvel & other comics appeal to these fantasies.

But what is power good for?
What a human can fully experience at any one moment is very limited, and the end is death for everyone, and death is totally unpredictable, and all else is uncertain.

Therefore it would seem power fantasies are a compensation, for feeling victimized or unfairly treated in some fashion. I suppose for those who fear death they may also serve as a sort of temporary escape, from their own fears and anxieties.




I love you LD but you're exceptionally naive with this post here.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Offlinemycot
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #27354782 - 06/19/21 05:08 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Two different discussions here. One about transhumanism and another about AI without defining either.
By transhumanism do we mean humans being technologically altered which is probably already being done or do we mean humans downloading their consciousness into a computer which is pure fantasy. That seems to be two quiet different definitions of transhumanism.

By AI do we mean the type of technology that is presently available and is likely being used to manipulate people through social media and many other unsavory uses or do we mean a human-like consciousness along with emotions, which I don't think will ever happen. Again two separate definitions.

We could have four separate discussions here. :rofl:

Edited by mycot (06/19/21 05:11 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: mycot]
    #27354836 - 06/19/21 06:25 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

yes, what are your thoughts on those 4 things?


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Offlinemycot
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27354897 - 06/19/21 07:37 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

1) Technologically altered humans.
Because people are often unable to to look at things holistically and often take a prideful reductionist approach to everything, there is plenty of room for fuckups and error. When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail, even ones Harley-Davidson or in this case human bodies.

2) Downloading consciousness onto hardware.
Never going to happen. There is no evidence that consciousness can be moved from one substrate to another.

3) Present-day-like AI technology.
Can be used for good but insanely dangerous when used against humans. I imagine the military and dictatorship uses can be just totally fucked, with also the possibility of being hacked by terrorists etc.

4) AI consciousness.
Never going to happen. It's a machine with humans behind it.
While many things may be simulated that doesn't mean that there is genuine consciousness behind it. A computer can play chess but that doesn't mean it understands what chess is. A thermometer can tell you what the temperature is, but that doesn't mean that it is conscious.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: mycot]
    #27354914 - 06/19/21 07:48 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mycot said:
1) Technologically altered humans.
Because people are often unable to to look at things holistically and often take a prideful reductionist approach to everything, there is plenty of room for fuckups and error. When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail, even ones Harley-Davidson or in this case human bodies.

2) Downloading consciousness onto hardware.
Never going to happen. There is no evidence that consciousness can be moved from one substrate to another.

3) Present-day-like AI technology.
Can be used for good but insanely dangerous when used against humans. I imagine the military and dictatorship uses can be just totally fucked, with also the possibility of being hacked by terrorists etc.

4) AI consciousness.
Never going to happen. It's a machine with humans behind it.
While many things may be simulated that doesn't mean that there is genuine consciousness behind it. A computer can play chess but that doesn't mean it understands what chess is. A thermometer can tell you what the temperature is, but that doesn't mean that it is conscious.



1. I think this is what is meant in the title, and - agreed - a wide variance of intervention on the body is possible and some of it not so good, much of it life saving, and some potentially advantageous or entertaining.
2. nothing yet happening like that, but we are inching towards an understanding of what the waking experience of life is like, and from that we can probably one day generate something similar in a simulation.
3. yep this is the terminator movie theme.
4. like #2, nothing yet, mostly because of our fledgeling understanding of what are consciousness and intelligence.

even an ant has autonomous consciousness and intelligence.
fish and octopi much more so
birds much more so
etc.

it could be simulated in a robot, and if it can be simulated and made autonomous, well, what is the difference between that and what goes on in our heads and bodies?


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InvisibleSwing2
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27354965 - 06/19/21 09:06 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I no longer feel worried about A.I., for what it's worth.

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InvisibleSwing2
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27354972 - 06/19/21 09:12 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


it could be simulated in a robot, and if it can be simulated and made autonomous, well, what is the difference between that and what goes on in our heads and bodies?





Yes... precisely. Well -- the next step for robots is pretty neat. Basically, smart phones equipped with robot bodies, i.e., able to walk around the house, pour drinks, etc..

This is already here, although not in every home. And I can't see these little guys taking up arms for example.

A though that occurred to me the other day is like a cybernetic doggie. I.e., a pet dog that is of course, a robot.

These have also been around for a while. (In this I mean the rudimentary term. A dog that can move on it's own but of course has no intelligence has already been here, but I'm talking more of a next level type of thing...

That kind of thing was in Fallout 2, there were two such: one was K9, the stronger one, the other was just called like "cybernetic dog" or some such and had far less in terms of speech capabilities and so forth.

I'm not really thinking of anything like that which were, of course, more designed for combat. I'm just talking about a robot doggie housed with an A.I., more autonomous and hopefully setting in with some attachments, loyalty, devotion and love and so forth that real doggos have. I suppose organic is better term than real here, since this is after all philosophy including.

I would also say all of these things are far closer than it had been thought, but perhaps not as ubiquitous as one day may be imagined.

Thanks all,
Love your replies RGV.

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InvisibleSwing2
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27354978 - 06/19/21 09:19 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

As mentioned, that's already here or just around the corner.



I was able to find an article pretty quickly.

For what it's worth, "smart phone house robot" was the phrase.

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Offlinemycot
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27355001 - 06/19/21 09:37 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

A quote from Aleister Crowley.

Man is ignorant of the nature of his own being and powers. Even his idea of his limitations is based on experience of the past, and every step in his progress extends his empire.
There is, therefore, no reason to assign theoretical limits to what he may be, or to what he may do.

----------------

With such great ignorance how can he/her be simulated ?

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: mycot]
    #27355841 - 06/19/21 11:44 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mycot said:
A quote from Aleister Crowley.

Man is ignorant of the nature of his own being and powers. Even his idea of his limitations is based on experience of the past, and every step in his progress extends his empire.
There is, therefore, no reason to assign theoretical limits to what he may be, or to what he may do.

----------------

With such great ignorance how can he/her be simulated ?




On an A.C. kick, mycot?

Which books in particular are you reading atm?


--------------------



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Offlinemycot
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27355950 - 06/20/21 02:05 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know about any kick but I am intrigued by his thought.

That quote came from 'Magick without Tears' by the way.

Not reading too much in the way of books atm except in a scattered incomplete way. So much to absorb.

But more recently this is what I've been reading.(Not too much heavy esoteric stuff. Ha Ha) all good books.

The Warrior mind  by Jim Pritchard and Sharon Lindenburger.
A couple of martial arts themed books by Sam Sheridan.
Also been reading up on Historical European Martial Arts.

The journeys of Socrates by Dan Millman (author of Way of the Peaceful warrior)) which I really enjoyed.

'Masters of Perception - Sensory-Motor Integration in the Internal Martial Arts' by Jan Diepersloot which is part of a triology.
(really takes the internal to another level)

Edited by mycot (06/20/21 02:54 AM)

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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Swing2]
    #27355965 - 06/20/21 02:24 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swing2 said:
I used to be maybe but probably not at the moment. I used to think thoughts like cyborgism, and all that were nifty but as I get older I am less and less for it. Imagine if you had a surge of electricity hit you somehow, that would really suck.

And A.I. that could go malware. And viruses that could infect.... yeah, I think it would pretty much be a bad idea.

What are your thoughts and where do you see it going?




Depends on what you want - happiness - power - or smarts

electrodes in rodent brains stimulate dopamine release (same as cocaine) and rats will press the levers (causing the stimulation) ignoring all else (food, sex, etc.) till they drop.
So yes if you want bliss it was figured out long ago.

Power is not happiness, and neither is wealth or fame, as the tabloids show again and again.
And the same goes for smarts.
There is a reason both Yoga and any tradition that teaches powerful meditation techniques, first requires a basis in morality, discipline, character development.

Ever see Fantasia?
Specifically the 'sorcerer's apprentice' scene
seems it could be a metaphor for what may be the result of AI / transhumanism without,
morality, discipline, or any character

We already see this in weapons development
the most known early steps are perhaps drones with missiles, & bomb disposal robots
the manchurian candidate, is a version of mind control by psychology, so there is no morality preventing brain control by computers in the future, combined with robotics
The terminator movies were over the top with liquid metal, self repairing robots,
and the one in Avatar was huge, but some such 'agumentation' of humans seems likely, in the event there are still humans in say about 30 years.




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OfflineSaeurcybe
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27388833 - 07/15/21 01:55 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Conscious AI is the legacy of sentient organic life. It will be the successor of humanity if we make it that far.

Squishy, needy humans like us are neither fit nor worthy to explore the distant universe.

As for what's in between, well, that will be interesting.

Edited by Saeurcybe (07/15/21 01:56 PM)

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OfflineSaeurcybe
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Saeurcybe]
    #27388844 - 07/15/21 02:02 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

I do think consciousness can be "uploaded"
As in, I think conscious beings have (imperfect) means by which to convey information which is quite literally physically integrated into other beings capable of consciousness.
We do it with other humans all the time.
If you could teach a machine (such as another human brain) your philosophy, you've created a translated version of data which represents your beliefs in that machine.
Personally I would pick and choose which aspects I "upload". I think that goes for most of us.

As for transferring consciousness. I don't think so. Though, what's so wrong with copying what works best and then deleting the old version? Seems like that's nature's way of doing things.

Edited by Saeurcybe (07/15/21 02:08 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Saeurcybe]
    #27389174 - 07/15/21 05:25 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Saeurcybe said:
Conscious AI is the legacy of sentient organic life. It will be the successor of humanity if we make it that far.

Squishy, needy humans like us are neither fit nor worthy to explore the distant universe.

As for what's in between, well, that will be interesting.



this is not a great attitude,
with faster than light travel and comfy spaceships we can be anywhere.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Saeurcybe]
    #27389190 - 07/15/21 05:35 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Saeurcybe said:
I do think consciousness can be "uploaded"
As in, I think conscious beings have (imperfect) means by which to convey information which is quite literally physically integrated into other beings capable of consciousness.
We do it with other humans all the time.
If you could teach a machine (such as another human brain) your philosophy, you've created a translated version of data which represents your beliefs in that machine.
Personally I would pick and choose which aspects I "upload". I think that goes for most of us.

As for transferring consciousness. I don't think so. Though, what's so wrong with copying what works best and then deleting the old version? Seems like that's nature's way of doing things.




the human brain is not like a digital machine
it is not even like a neural net

consciousness is integrated with body directly.

I do think that a portion of experiencing could be recorded from part of the cortex and transferred to another person in real time or at a later time. which will be a valid way to taste what the other experience was like mixed with what is going on now


identities however form over a years.
to transfer an identity, some form of sleep for years would probably need to be arranged while a recording made over years was being provided as surrogate live experience which is what we have evolved to learn.

speed it up and all nuance disappears.

attempt to erase what is underlying is not going to work, we do not have any selective erase function though many have tried.


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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27389312 - 07/15/21 07:06 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

the human brain is not like a digital machine
it is not even like a neural net

consciousness is integrated with body directly.


I've heard that this is debated pretty hotly in the AI circles. Whether "embodiment" is required as a natural next step for AI.

I also was pretty interested in one researchers argument for analogy as as a necessary and missing component. Her thoughts were that even though AI can generalize after training on thousands and thousands of samples, it cannot generalize very far. And, what's more, needing thousands and thousands of samples to generalize in the first place is a sign of failure for learning in any significant way. And so her conclusion was that AI must necessarily work on analogies. And in her experience, that will require sensory input.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineSaeurcybe
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27389751 - 07/16/21 01:53 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the human brain is not like a digital machine
it is not even like a neural net





I'm of the belief that anything could be simulated with enough computing power. Not that we're near that.

I know neural nets are not even close to our complexity. Deep learning is a massive step but not going to bring us all the way. The things which are being accomplished with it are astounding. That it's being used to understand brain noise, or just to make sense of all sorts of weird data is pretty exciting and makes me wonder how many advancements might be revealed by having deep learning in the tool belt.

But what I'm getting at is that the idea of uploading ones own "soul" to an artificial consciousness seems pointless. Get that human bullshit out of my robo-brain. I think we have better means by which to give information to a generally intelligent AI. Selectively too, so that maybe my weed habit doesn't rub off on the robot :cool:. Unless we're simulating human brains in the machine then I don't see how a sort of direct upload would even be compatible. And that's without concerning the metaphysics of making sure it's a transition and not just copy->death (because I think digital immortality is the main concern with this line of thinking)

Edited by Saeurcybe (07/16/21 02:03 AM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Saeurcybe]
    #27390792 - 07/16/21 09:11 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Get that human bullshit out of my robo-brain.

Bro I've worked tech support. Get both the human bullshit and the robo bullshit outa here plz and thanks

kidding aside, does anyone else fear homogeny?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: Kickle]
    #27390956 - 07/17/21 05:59 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

homogeny sounds bland


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Re: I can't say I'm for transhumanism. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27390989 - 07/17/21 06:39 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

word and a long, long time of it sounds awful!


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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