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 extreme
Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 9,345
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 Will to _____ ? 
#27350195 - 06/16/21 04:35 AM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Don't feel like making too long of a post right now because I'm tired but there were some competing ideas in the 19th and 20th centuries between philosophers and some psychologists about what drives humans (and I guess other species too). There's the will to power (Nietzsche), to pleasure (Freud), to purpose/meaning (Frankl) *just listing the most common name I can think of for each. I'm sure there are some other "wills" as well - I'm not sure if it has the same meaning but Schopenhauer had a will to life I believe.
I'm curious what you guys think is the most accurate, or if one of these stands above the rest, if it's a mix, etc. I personally think it's a mix and that some can substitute for others. For example, hedonism (pleasure) or power, especially when they're at the extremes and virtually limitless, could be all you need for many people, but I think that when you lose those, purpose and meaning is all that's left underneath everything else. Granted you could also just say "dammit I lost my power or pleasure but I'm just going to try to regain it." But if you're not in a position to do that, is trying to find meaning in all this ultimately what is going to be left and possibly the most important? Also I think there are some semantics issues with some of these definitions so I guess just try to interpret them how you see fit 
Also if anyone has more knowledge on any of these specifically I'd be curious to learn more about them as well. A will to power feels especially dubious in how it can be explained and interpreted just because it makes me wonder what kind of power is really being alluded to. Is it a desire for complete domination over everything and to rule the world with billions of dollars and a harem of gorgeous women? Or could it just include having freedom and autonomy and respect in whatever domain you exist in?
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redgreenvines
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 Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: extreme]
#27350210 - 06/16/21 04:53 AM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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thanks for distilling the will to _____ lineage of thinkers who assert various fundamental poles to which our compasses may point.
this type of insight (the underlying alignment of people) could help a lot (in politics?), if it were true and it worked.
however the semantics battle goes, I think that motivation, and interest are complex and mixed, while some generalization is applicable to specific roles in society and the world at large.
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laughingdog
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: extreme]
#27350621 - 06/16/21 11:58 AM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
extreme said:
Don't feel like making too long of a post right now ...
I'm curious what you guys think is the most accurate, or if one of these stands above the rest, if it's a mix, etc. I personally think it's a mix and that some can substitute for others. .....Also I think there are some semantics issues with some of these definitions so I guess just try to interpret them how you see fit
....
Seems like a game to me. You could put Hugh Hefner in one box and Jeff Bezos in another. Seems like many folks become caricatures of themselves with advancing age.
But happy people with multiple creative talents, many not fit so well into prearranged boxes.
And if you go the "Selfish gene" route with your thinking, 'your will' would seem sort of irrelevant, would it not?
Seems at the moment your will is to find the right boxes for folks, as if they only come in standard models; ... and as you have pointed out many have and continue, to play this game - even with themselves, by taking personality tests - which score folks on multiple aspects.
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Swing2
Let it rain
Registered: 06/07/21
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Oh how about 'Will to Enlightenment' like Buddha sitting under a tree for seven years saying "I won't leave until I reach it," or "will to divinity", or perfection, (an unending ideal of continual self perfecting), or, "will to love," harmony etc.
I would agree with laughing dog, if I'm correct in understanding, and also I would say that "accurate" is -- both a good and bad idea. At first I would have said bad, but then I realize how much I admire and try to adhere to accuracy.
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 BrendanFlock
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: Swing2] 1
#27352720 - 06/17/21 07:25 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Will to highest possible achievement.
Will to attainment. (Like Buddhist enlightenment)
Will to freedom.. or the idea of wanting to or expressing freewill.
Will to for the best possible outcome in an everyday.. every instant.. total life story..
Will to act as in a life story..
Will to cause and effect..
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BrendanFlock
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My brother in law came up with this one..
Will to achieving a higher power..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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what even is will?
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: extreme]
#27352993 - 06/18/21 12:05 AM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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My interpretion, we need a will to commit and to be able to compartmentalise the effort.
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: sudly]
#27353074 - 06/18/21 03:37 AM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why do we will to do the things we do..?
We can ask why from the very seed asking it how to grow..
Is curiosity the reason?
Or is it some type of statement about what is and what will be..
Right now is the seed that will grow into the future..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: sudly]
#27353110 - 06/18/21 04:48 AM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
My interpretion, we need a will to commit and to be able to compartmentalise the effort.
so as a noun, might 'commitment' be equivalent?
(compartmentalizing seems more about perception, though 'will' could also be the perception that "I must do this")
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Swing2
Let it rain
Registered: 06/07/21
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For a second I thought that said, "as a nun,..."
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: Swing2]
#27353317 - 06/18/21 08:51 AM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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since writing, thinking more, will is not other than the prioritization of.
i.e. the assignment of priority, and keeping that priority in mind.
related ideas are urgency, supremacy, drive, orientation
all of those are directional - and if there is a position and a direction there is a posture - the compass points to...
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Swing2
Let it rain
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I would say that will is related to effort, and in most cases it's before thinking. Plants have a "will" to grow so to speak, although to be sure it's not the same as an animal.
For most of us, I think will comes before thought or conscious thought, it's a more basic thing, however one wants to put it or define it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: Swing2]
#27353721 - 06/18/21 02:09 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swing2 said:
I would say that will is related to effort, and in most cases it's before thinking. Plants have a "will" to grow so to speak, although to be sure it's not the same as an animal.
For most of us, I think will comes before thought or conscious thought, it's a more basic thing, however one wants to put it or define it.
speaking poetically about plants is ok
and I agree that most people believe that something called will is closer to their soul than thoughts.
I think they just do not understand that all things in mind are of equivalent material and energy (mind-stuff), making will nothing other than thought.
However, thoughts may be characterized in many ways, such as:
- verbal thought - discursive thinking (use of language), or
- non-verbal thinking - flashing on bits of memory from experiences
- sensing - the moment that any sensation reaches the brain it is transduced to the same thing that makes thought
some thoughts are more meaningful - because they relate to more issues that are already in your memory.
some thoughts can be more important - and this is where will comes into it as far as I can see.
It is in the act of prioritization of issues, and when something is most important, when you are convinced that it must be done a certain way, that is when will is being expressed.
Plants do not perceive, they react to the environmental chemistry, and physical arrangements where they grow. there is no place for will in plants because they do not think, they just are alive, each cell working with the others forming working xylem, phloem, roots, leaves, flowers, bark, pollen ovules, seeds, fruit - etc.
All thinking is conscious thinking. Not all thinking is important, and this is what makes will a spiritual thing - it is an opportunity to set some issues above others, and to raise something, like morality for instance as most important, and if it is most important to you then, poetically, you are exercising your free (enlightened) will in the name of god (so to speak).
Even dreams are conscious. At least as conscious as being stoned. REM sleep (when dreams occur) is not unconscious regenerative sleeping, it is actually a form of conscious experience sandwiched between slabs of time when you are unconscious.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: extreme]
#27354585 - 06/18/21 11:46 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Humans are fucking masters at locating extremes in terms of behavior, and absolutely terrible at mitigating and discerning how much to dial it back/maintain levels of practicality over a longterm period.
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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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BrendanFlock
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The idea of the will to power is a misnomer..
All will is the will to do something..?
People engage in will battles to show the superiority of will over will..
Why because its entertaining?
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
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Adlayer a day dream until you develop commitment, sometimes works in my case.
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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again mistaking brawn for brain.
I'm going to stick with "will = an arbitrary priority framework in a person's mind".
the battle of wills is a battle for control.
a battle to replace someone's priorities with new ones.
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mycot
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Nietzsche's 'will to power' also plays a prominent part in the thought of Alfred Alder, the founder of a school of psychology, who's thought I am not too keen on.
There is one will that you missed, that bypasses the will to.
It's simply termed "True Will". Here's the first paragraph from the Wikipedia page on the subject.
True Will is a term found within the mystical system of Thelema, an occult society founded in 1904 with Aleister Crowley's writing of The Book of the Law.[1][2] It is defined either as a person's grand destiny in life or as a moment-to-moment path of action that operates in perfect harmony with Nature. True Will does not spring from conscious intent, but from the interplay between the deepest Self and the entire Universe. Thelemites in touch with their True Will are said to have eliminated or bypassed their false desires, conflicts, and habits, and accessed their connection with the divine. Theoretically, at this point, the Thelemite acts in alignment with Nature, just as a stream flows downhill, with neither resistance nor "lust of result". Crowley's ideas on the subject partly originated with the teachings of Eliphas Levi, whose magical books emphasize the magician finding their magical identity – his or her 'true self', which Levi referred to as the "True Will".
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Will to _____ ? [Re: mycot]
#27354971 - 06/19/21 09:12 AM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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being honest about the truth in things requires an ongoing bullshit test.
Crowley never passes this honesty evaluation, so what he calls true, is an arbitrary labeling scheme - with Eliphas Levi I have no familiarity, but I think it's like quantum entanglement, if you use the word, 'quantum' improperly you still get rapt mindless attention for an incomprehensible validation.
so is true grit truer than grit, is true will truer than will, is true love truer than love?
I think not, they are just imposters stealing the magic show.
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