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Invisiblefreakygurl
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Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 537
do you believe in Choice? *DELETED*
    #2734741 - 05/27/04 01:01 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by freakygurl

Reason for deletion: .



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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2734784 - 05/27/04 01:18 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I have belief in predestiny.


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Offlinejono
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2735623 - 05/27/04 08:38 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I feel that metaphysical 'choice' or in the sense 'free will' is ultimately an illusion.

It is an illusion in the sense that any decision that we make is ultimately conditioned by a sum of the past and presently occuring experiences and our make-up (ie possibly genetics etc).

It is best illustrated by the idea that If i could choose to do A, or B, and I choose A, it could be argued that I choose A based on an apperance of practical 'free will'. But if it is investigated at a level beyond the surface, it would seem to be apparent that the fact that I choose A was based on reasoning, and that reasoning was based on experiences or things that have occured to me, or various other phenomenon that have played a part in conditioning the decision making process. So while I thought I had the freedom to decide between A and B, ultimately I could have chosen none other than A, based on the sum of total of what 'I' am at the particular point in time that decision was made. Does that make sense?

Jono.


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: jono]
    #2735639 - 05/27/04 08:48 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

But what if one should choose to take the "output" received from the brain and do the exact opposite of what seems logical, just for the sake of exercising free will? I mean, what if all signs point to A, but you just went ahead and chose B anyway?

While I agree with what you say, I think there is a flaw in your logic because of the possibility of the individual in question not being directly controlled by the output of their "reasoning generator". (While this scenario does not apply to everyone, it does apply to some.)


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Offlinejono
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2735671 - 05/27/04 09:12 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)




Jacquessousteau said:
But what if one should choose to take the "output" received from the brain and do the exact opposite of what seems logical, just for the sake of exercising free will? I mean, what if all signs point to A, but you just went ahead and chose B anyway?






No I think you may have missed the point of what I am trying to get at. I am denying that it is possible for ALL signs to point to A and for them to go ahead and choose B anyway. That is because that if it were possible to know ALL the signs, then you would be able to adequately predict the decision making process. But considering that it is close to impossible with present methods to achieve such an understanding of all potential variables involved in the decision making process, this can unfortunately not be empirically verified.





While I agree with what you say, I think there is a flaw in your logic because of the possibility of the individual in question not being directly controlled by the output of their "reasoning generator". (While this scenario does not apply to everyone, it does apply to some.)





No my argument doesnt suppose that they be directly controlled by their reasoning generator. All sorts of factors may be involved in the decision making process and eventual outcome of the choice, what I deny, is that there is any direct 'free will' in a metaphysical sense exercised over this process. This argument is intimately tied up with the idea of determinism.

Jono.


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


Edited by jono (05/27/04 09:14 AM)


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Offlinethoth_the_moth
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Registered: 05/26/04
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2736121 - 05/27/04 11:48 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

On one hand we seemingly make any decision that we want to. For example: If I wanted to clench my fist, I could just do it. I feel that we really should analyze this action further, though. What is really in control of this decision? Is it simply just a decision to be made by one omnipotent source? When you clench your fist your neurons respond and there are electrical signals that are sent from your brain. These signals are sent throughout your nervous system and eventually your muscles twitch in correspondence. There is a whole process of actions and responses that dictate this simple action. So it seems that the aforementioned neuron responses and electrical signals are what really governs us in our physical decisions.

I would like to believe that we have a freewill but in all honesty I think that we do not. I also do not believe in fate, though. I think that there really isn't a comprehendable answer to this question.


--------------------
Thoth


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Offlinepeleg
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: thoth_the_moth]
    #2736442 - 05/27/04 01:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

chocie is made evryday whether ya wanna eat at bugger king or pizza hut,just keeping it simple,peace Gypsy


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....


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InvisibleMellowMood
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Registered: 04/24/04
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2736882 - 05/27/04 03:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)


When a choice is made conciously...without the constant argueings of the rational mind and the ego...then do we really have a choice


--------------------
"Im a dreamin man
yes thats my problem
I cant tell when im
not being real"


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2736934 - 05/27/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Gubjet said:
I have belief in predestiny.




Yes.... some of us ARE predestined to make innumerable spelling errors.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineViveka
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2737219 - 05/27/04 04:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Do we really have the ability to make music ? Or is all "music" we make merely the product of math in our brains? Every note selection, key change and time signature we express is merely a complex mathematical operation that figures in current stimulus and memory and outputs "music"?

Well, so what? It's still music. Also, this morning I woke up a bit late for work and decided to lay in bed a while longer. In fact, I layed there all morning, not waking till noon, but every hour or so I would wake up slightly and consider my options: drag my sore and tired body out of bed, into the shower, feed myself, then go to work....or not. There were many subtle considerations that guided my renewed choice each time, but the fact is today I chose not to come to work on time. It was a decision-making process.
Yesterday, I was faced with all the same obligations and for the most part, conditions, although I went to bed slightly earlier the night before and drank less alcohol the previous day, but yesterday I went in to work on time. I certainly could have choosen to come to work earlier today, but I performed a cost-benefit analysis and opted for sleep.


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OfflineEgoTripping
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Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2737950 - 05/27/04 07:50 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Problem is you guys are thinking too large. Sure, you can close your fist at any time, but what about all the chemical and biological reactions that can't ever be changed that allowed you to do that? When you break your existance down enough, you eventually see you're nothing more than the result of many different causes and effect circumstances.

Free Will becomes tricky at this point. Are just random ping-ponging of events adhered to certain universal constants (which eliminates free will) or are we pre-destined beings with purpose (whch also eliminates free will)? My argument for my fallacy of free will is that "god" knows the result and outcome of every potiential path I can choose, but MY free will entails what path I WILL choose. But the paradox is developed when you ask: No matter what path I choose, did God already know I was going to choose that? If not, then God isn't as "all knowing" as we thought. If God did know, then my free will is eliminated.

Either way, I say we have OUR free will, but we're not supposed to know it's all been pre-determined, because it's too difficult to understand for us to think every single action we perform has been seen and predicted. It's like trying to figure out a huge, huge equation from the middle, without knowing the first or resulting value. Just assume you DO have free will, and don't worry if God knows all about it, since you'll never have validation about that (until one day, possibly).


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2747603 - 05/30/04 08:46 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

This is the best question ever.

Nobody has any clue as of yet.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinedeff
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2747829 - 05/30/04 10:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's obvious that free will is non-existant. Everything is cause and effect, and everything (the universe) is just one infinite chemical reaction where somehow our unique perspective is created for asmall fragment of time. Even me typing this is not based on 'free will', as my past experiences have altered the structure of my brain to respond to this visual sensory input with this exact response. Me reading this post in the first place is the effect of me deciding to browse the shroomery for a bit, which is the result of everything before it. Everything is cause and effect, which proves that there was no beginning, and will be no end, to the universe.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2747835 - 05/30/04 10:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If you have an ego, you have the ability to choose. Without an ego, such a thing as a choice would not exist.

Choice is illusionary.


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Anonymous

Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2747981 - 05/30/04 11:08 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Post History Deleted Upon User's Request


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: ]
    #2748045 - 05/30/04 11:27 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i assume all is choice. from the body you inhabit to the universe you inhabit.
i just feel like free will is the reason for everything, kind of funny to see poeple say there is no such thing.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2748163 - 05/31/04 12:07 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well it's more complicated than what I said in my last post. I don't really feel like getting into it, but it's paradoxical how free will is noexistant since everything is cause and effect, however that means our own personal existance is the same way. Howevere, since we are trapped within our own existance, from this logic, and from the fact that we question free will despite knowing that the questioning itself is based upon prior causes and not free will, creates a certain perplexity. Afterall, if we are subjectively within the same system as cause and effect, would that mean it is, subjectively, free will? On the grand scheme, no, but relative to our existence, possibly. I'm too tired to get into it really, and I'm probably not making sense anyways...


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: freakygurl]
    #2748234 - 05/31/04 12:28 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vaka said:
... to believe in the power of choice assumes the belief in an extraphysical mind that is not based on math the way our physical world is.



Our physical world is based on math? Mathematics is an abstract symbolic system used to label and describe various qualities and actions of the universe, and it is an invention of the human mind. Mathematics is but one way of describing the physical world, not the basis of the physical world. My guess is that mathematics is a fairly recent development in the history of the universe.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: deff]
    #2748289 - 05/31/04 12:42 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Everything is cause and effect...



How do you know this? Seems like a leap of faith to me.

Quote:

... and everything (the universe) is just one infinite chemical reaction...



You don't mean this literally, do you?

Quote:

Everything is cause and effect, which proves that there was no beginning, and will be no end, to the universe.



What was the cause of the very first cause? I cannot be as sure as you of that which I do not know. Again, tell me how you know that everything is cause and effect when your perspective of the universe is so limited both physically and temporally?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: do you believe in Choice? [Re: Evolving]
    #2748776 - 05/31/04 03:19 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

What number is this?



--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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