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horsebatterystaple
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Registered: 05/10/21
Posts: 11
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Grain jars never colonizing?
#27303469 - 05/10/21 07:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have a repeated problem in my process where grain jars simply refuse to show any sign of colonization (or even contamination!) ever. I'm talking a month after inoculation the jar looks exactly the same as it did the day it came out of the pressure cooker. Below is my process, but I don't know how much light it will shed on this beat of a problem that I just can't shake. Of my last inoculation round, 17 out of 24 jars never showed signs of life.
Grain prep: Boil oats for 45 minutes Dry oats on baking sheets with fan until dry Pack jars to 600ml, pressure cook 2 hours with loose lids/tin foil
Inoculation: Spray down all surfaces, gloved hands, and still air box with alcohol Take syringe and heat fresh needle over alcohol lamp flame Inoculate each jar with roughly 1cc, flame sterilizing needle between every jar
Conditions: Jars are kept in a cool, dry room at roughly 70 degrees farenheit
Does anybody have any experience with a similar issue, and what can be done to get these jars popping off? Thank you!
Edited by horsebatterystaple (05/10/21 07:43 PM)
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Nimpo
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Registered: 05/10/12
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Quote:
horsebatterystaple said:
Inoculate each jar with roughly 10cc, flame sterilizing needle between every jar
Youre spraying 10ccs of spore solution into each jar?
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horsebatterystaple
Stranger

Registered: 05/10/21
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: Nimpo]
#27303476 - 05/10/21 07:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sorry, my mistake. I use roughly 1cc per jar
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Jacubey
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Do you see any condensation at some point?
After you finally decide to open these jars, do they smell sour?
A couple of mine have done this, and it turns out to be a yeast infection or something.
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horsebatterystaple
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Registered: 05/10/21
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: Jacubey]
#27303496 - 05/10/21 08:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I do not see any condensation building up in the jars. After a month or so the grains are less "free" tumbling and show some minor signs of sticking together, but visually the jars are very dry.
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Feasoghorm

Registered: 10/24/18
Posts: 4,384
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Are you trying to knock up jars of grain with a spore syringe? If so, that'd be your problem.
Not only must you generally assume that any spore syringe is contaminated, but spores dnt really like to germinate on grain.
You need to go to agar b4 going to grain, budro. If you like injecting shit you can make an LC from a clean agar culture and inject that into jars of grain.
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horsebatterystaple
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: Feasoghorm]
#27303599 - 05/10/21 09:59 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Feasoghorm said: spores dnt really like to germinate on grain.
You need to go to agar b4 going to grain, budro.
wow, I've never heard this before, and mostly see tek that describes using syringes. last time I did agar transfers the jars stalled out long before completion, likely due to some sort of contaminant in the grain (this was an earlier prep method). I'll look into this, thanks.
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pablokabute
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: Feasoghorm]
#27303604 - 05/10/21 10:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Feasoghorm said: but spores dnt really like to germinate on grain.
This is simply UNTRUE, ive knocked up grain jars straight from spores before I learned agar. but I get your point working with agar first before grains.
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--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
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Smartattack
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: pablokabute]
#27303636 - 05/10/21 10:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Every single syringe ever made is at a different level of cleanliness. Of course you can and will get lucky, But how long do you like to roll dice when knowing whats up at all times is right around the corner with like $40 in agar supplies?
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Feasoghorm

Registered: 10/24/18
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: pablokabute]
#27303638 - 05/10/21 11:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, i knw dudes on here that say they've done hundreds of spore syringe 2 grain with resounding success, but it's not advisable. If something blooms contam it's a big variable. Then we wind up with troubleshooting issues like we have here.
You cud have a clean syringe, in fact ive never had a contaminated one, but without agar work you will not be able to properly test it to see if that's your issue. Wud be nice if it wasnt but shit's jst more involved than splooge into some grain.
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Mycelium Juice
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Registered: 10/31/20
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: pablokabute]
#27303641 - 05/10/21 11:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
pablokabute said:
Quote:
Feasoghorm said: but spores dnt really like to germinate on grain.
This is simply UNTRUE, ive knocked up grain jars straight from spores before I learned agar. but I get your point working with agar first before grains.
Truth. I knocked up a shit ton of jars with much success and contamination before I moved over to agar. Shit definitely works 100 times over. Agar just happens to work 1,000 times better.
OP are you letting the needle cool at all? You may be frying the spores if you're needle is still hot.
1-2 cc's always worked great for me...maybe try 2 if you want to continue trying that way?
Are you shaking the syringe as well before inoculation?
What type of filter are you using?
What psi are you PC'ing at?
Learn agar 🏴☠️
Edited by Mycelium Juice (05/10/21 11:43 PM)
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
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Loc: rural ghetto
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Thats one thing, he could be frying the spores but with 1cc of solution, the needle definitely has cooled down the time he squeezed the initial squirt of the solution
--------------------
Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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Aspergillus
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: pablokabute]
#27303806 - 05/11/21 04:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why do all of that excellent sterile prep with your jars just to shoot a dirty syringe into them?
Best thing you can do to make your jars "pop off" is do spores to agar and isolate an aggressive culture. Otherwise just keep shooting spores into jars and hope you luck out with one you can use for g2g transfers.
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horsebatterystaple
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Registered: 05/10/21
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I get a small hiss of evaporation for the first drop but it's silent, and i assume cool, for the rest of the CC
The syringes are fully shaken up, the filters are the adhesive tyvek filters that are recommended in most teks, and I'm pressure cooking at 15-17 PSI, closer to 17. On paper everything is right to my amateur eyes, and many users show success going straight from syringe so I don't know why the jars aren't showing signs of growth.
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Lieutenant Pan
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Maybe you have a crap supplier for spores did you buy them from some kid on reddit or through the shroomery sponsors?
-------------------- I never thanked ya fer saving my life.
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horsebatterystaple
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These spores were from Sporeworks
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Lieutenant Pan
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well their spores work that's why it's sporeworks? I'm going to tell you the answer you need to know without all that agar talk.
You needs to watch the RR video lets grow mushrooms grain prep video. I never used oats other than oatmeal so I'd recommend rye berries like the legend shows you in the video.
My guess is the oats were too dry.
-------------------- I never thanked ya fer saving my life.
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bakedbeings
orbiter of truth


Registered: 09/01/20
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ive had nothing but success squirting spores on grain and i have no idea what youre doing wrong, but why are you trying to do this more than once? supposedly you had 7 out of 24 jars colonize? so you have 7 jars to knock up the next ones! or am i missing something?
-------------------- Confused? Well now you can!
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horsebatterystaple
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Registered: 05/10/21
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Quote:
Lieutenant Pan said: My guess is the oats were too dry.
Dry as in the moisture they take up while boiling, or dry as in I dried them out too long after boiling?
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horsebatterystaple
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: bakedbeings]
#27304446 - 05/11/21 03:02 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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It is disconcerting that a majority of jars do not have the proper conditions for what should be a successful colonization. Sure I could grain 2 grain clone in some freshly sterilized, new grain jars, but this failure rate and mode is not common, so I am hoping to uncover the root cause in my process.
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Lieutenant Pan
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Until you watch the grain prep video you aren't going to understand what I tolds ya.
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Mycelium Juice
Here for the weed



Registered: 10/31/20
Posts: 513
Loc: planet earth
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Quote:
horsebatterystaple said:
Grain prep: Boil oats for 45 minutes Dry oats on baking sheets with fan until dry
Quote:
Lieutenant Pan said:
My guess is the oats were too dry.
Pan may be on to something...
Are a few grains burst by the time you're done boiling the oats?
If not wait until you see a few burst grains so you know they're at max hydration. It won't hurt anything.
Maybe you're being a little overzealous with your drying too?
I dry my oats by just throwing them in the sink for 60-90 minutes (stirring a few times to let steam dissipate). They're always a little damp still- would prbly pass the paper towel test, but maybe not- and they always work great. I used to pan dry like you, or use multiple strainers, but that's just a waste of time imo.
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bakedbeings
orbiter of truth


Registered: 09/01/20
Posts: 4,563
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Quote:
horsebatterystaple said: It is disconcerting that a majority of jars do not have the proper conditions for what should be a successful colonization. Sure I could grain 2 grain clone in some freshly sterilized, new grain jars, but this failure rate and mode is not common, so I am hoping to uncover the root cause in my process.
true, i was leaning more toward there being a problem with your syringe, in which case g2g would bypass the problem. have you tried a g2g and been equally unsuccessful? because that would be great evidence for dry oats.
my favorite thing about oats is that you can cook the shit out of them and they still shake up easy because of their indestructable husks. when i used them i would boil them until the insides were dark and gelatinous, several separating from the husks on their own, and when i packed the jars they still looked a bit damp. it worked fine. if youre worried about too much moisture in the jar maybe put a lil verm at the bottom? but dont overdry the oats.
-------------------- Confused? Well now you can!
HHG - cheapest way to start - how i roll
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bakedbeings
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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: bakedbeings]
#27304664 - 05/11/21 05:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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you are using whole oats, right? with husks?
-------------------- Confused? Well now you can!
HHG - cheapest way to start - how i roll
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horsebatterystaple
Stranger

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Re: Grain jars never colonizing? [Re: bakedbeings]
#27304862 - 05/11/21 08:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, whole oats. I have been killing the heat after seeing the first bursted husks on my wooden spoon, I'm worried about too many burst husks not being a good environment for the myc.
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horsebatterystaple
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Quote:
Mycelium Juice said: I dry my oats by just throwing them in the sink for 60-90 minutes (stirring a few times to let steam dissipate). They're always a little damp still- would prbly pass the paper towel test, but maybe not- and they always work great. I used to pan dry like you, or use multiple strainers, but that's just a waste of time imo.
This excess moisture worries me, doesn't mold and contam love the damp?
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Mycelium Juice
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Yes, but it's not excessive by any means. They still come out dry, and any minimal moisture left gets re-absorbed by the oats in a day or so anyway. We're not talking straight from pot to jars here.
If you watch a few commercial grower videos (i.e. myers mushrooms or mossy creek) those fuckers load the bags with the oats more or less still wet. I'm not going to that extreme, but they have successful businesses operating that way. I just don't worry too much about it anymore, and was thinking maybe it would help as you seem to be doing everything else right.
last thought/suggestion...What micron are those tyvek lids?
You're going to want around .2 microns for gas exchange with grain spawn. If you're using .5 that can dry the grains out too quickly too.
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horsebatterystaple
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Thank you for the detailed response with examples from commercial gourmet growers. I'm going to relax a bit regarding both burst husks and dry time and see how that goes for my next inoculation day.
Quote:
Mycelium Juice said: last thought/suggestion...What micron are those tyvek lids?
Currently running two of the 20mm adhesive dots with a .25-.3mm micron (maybe only 15mm of the filter is actually exposed to a hole in the lid, the rest is obstructed by the solid lid itself).
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