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Invisible10kVisions
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Water Temps Question
    #27299930 - 05/08/21 09:26 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Ok so I've been going though my process for a few years and have narrowed my issues down to:
1. Coir Brick, I switched brands a few times and found the one that has the most success for me.  Some brands would contaminated within the first 2 weeks in a Monotub and others would get very little or none at all.  So im now working with the most successful brand I've found for me.
2. water temps:  This one im having the most trouble with and would love some feedback from anyone who has dealt with Hi Alt Cultivation (@rogerrabbit?)

Now im at 10,000 Feet so my boiling point is only 194ºF. with is far lower than at sea level and im trying to figure out how to raise that.  IMO my water isn't getting hot enough to kill off the ALL of the contams in my coir brick and causing me to still get green mold when I hit the birthing stage (sometimes earlier but rarely).

if im lucky on the stove (I don't own a microwave) I can get my water to 196-198º.

Could I use a pressure cooker to get the water temp up higher?  When I let the pressure out would the temp drop down being too low again?  has anyone tried this?  I figure I would give it a shot but its always good to reach out and see if anyone has dealt with it before me.

DISCLAIMER: Please don't start talking to me about my Agar, jars etc.. I've been working that process for over 6 years and have it down extremely well, I'm not looking for help there. Thanks Agar!


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OfflineKnucklehead
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: 10kVisions]
    #27299969 - 05/08/21 09:55 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The temp would definitely drop once the pressure was released. But coir itself is pretty resistant. When making simple casing layer, I just hydrate with tap water

If you soak your grains in the same bucket you do coir prep in, there may be residual starches. If you're not open to discussing other potential causes, not really much else to consider.

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Invisible10kVisions
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: Knucklehead]
    #27299974 - 05/08/21 10:01 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Knucklehead said:
The temp would definitely drop once the pressure was released. But coir itself is pretty resistant. When making simple casing layer, I just hydrate with tap water

If you soak your grains in the same bucket you do coir prep in, there may be residual starches. If you're not open to discussing other potential causes, not really much else to consider.




thats an interesting take, I've never heard anyone talk about starches etc.  I do soak my grains in the same buckets but also clean them thoroughly between each step.  the main issue I have is that I had a 95% success rate at my old place for about 5 years and now living at high alt. I've had issue after issue.  ALL of which as come down to something to do with my coir at this point. just trying to figure out what that is.

I just had a successful grow a month ago and then with the same jars, coir, tek methods etc had 6 tubs go bad.  not sure where the inconsistency lies but is there somewhere.


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InvisibleGoatrider
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: Knucklehead]
    #27299977 - 05/08/21 10:04 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm...very uncommon to me.
I think with your temp range molds should easily be killed.
But yeah, i would never prep my coir in a bucket used for grain soak beforehand.
You won`t get it clean without sterilizing i mean.

            :cookiemonster:


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OfflineKnucklehead
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: 10kVisions]
    #27299988 - 05/08/21 10:16 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I used to wash my buckets with soap and hot water and I still had the occasional issue.

Venting my PC also helped clean up what I thought was clean spawn.

It also could be related to the PCing your grains. For every 1000 ft above 2000 ft, I just read you should increase cooking time by 5%. So like 40% longer than you would have otherwise.

You could also add quarters to your pc weight to increase the psi, thereby increasing temps.

Mold spores die off at pasteurization temps, which is easily obtainable even at your altitude. But bacteria wont be properly killed off without the proper time/pressure.

But even slightly, unnoticeably bacterial spawn can open up the possibility for mold to take hold.

Edited by Knucklehead (05/08/21 10:19 AM)

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InvisibleSir Pentinite
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: 10kVisions]
    #27299994 - 05/08/21 10:25 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Look at what changed: your location and altitude. Are you compensating for the lower PC pressure due to altitude with either higher gauge pressure or longer cycle times?

The pressure a PC gauge shows is only in addition to local atmospheric pressure. In your case it's only running at about 24.7psia and 239°F instead of 29.7psia/250° like at sea level. Sterilization time vs temperature is a nonlinear curve, so a 5% reduction in temp will need more than a 5% increase in time. How much is the subject of much scientific research.

Quote:

10kVisions said:
Could I use a pressure cooker to get the water temp up higher?  When I let the pressure out would the temp drop down being too low again?




You could and it would be a great way to end up in a burn ward needing skin grafts. When you heat water under pressure to a temperature higher than the local boiling temperature, releasing the pressure abruptly will cause it to either boil extremely vigorously or flash to steam and expand explosively. There's no way to get it out of the PC as a liquid at a temp higher than 194°F in your case.

More importantly, the only reason to use hot water when rehydrating coir is simply because it rehydrates better, not because it kills anything. Besides, pasteurization is done at a lot lower temp than 194. You should be able to use water straight out of the tap if you want. The coir you say works for you may have trichoderma added for the benefit of plants. If you really want to try nuking it with hot water, use Bod's tek and make it in an ice chest or water cooler so it stays hot for a long time.


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"I thought to myself 'Boy, I'm sure glad there's nobody here to see this because this is exactly the sort of thing that gets people riled-up and they assume you're dying and that something has to be done. Where if you're alone, you know, you either come through it or you die, but in any case you avoid the fuss.'"
- Terrence McKenna

Edited by Sir Pentinite (05/08/21 10:39 AM)

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OfflineKnucklehead
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: Sir Pentinite]
    #27300005 - 05/08/21 10:32 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sir Pentinite said:
The coir you say works for you may have trichoderma added for the benefit of plants.



Hadn't even considered this. Great point, Sir.

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Invisible10kVisions
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: Knucklehead]
    #27300089 - 05/08/21 11:49 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Knucklehead said:
I used to wash my buckets with soap and hot water and I still had the occasional issue.

Venting my PC also helped clean up what I thought was clean spawn.

It also could be related to the PCing your grains. For every 1000 ft above 2000 ft, I just read you should increase cooking time by 5%. So like 40% longer than you would have otherwise.

You could also add quarters to your pc weight to increase the psi, thereby increasing temps.

Mold spores die off at pasteurization temps, which is easily obtainable even at your altitude. But bacteria wont be properly killed off without the proper time/pressure.

But even slightly, unnoticeably bacterial spawn can open up the possibility for mold to take hold.




...Iv'e worked all that out via RR Teladi and Bodhi.
pc'ing at 20psi for 2 Hours (time compensation and psi compensation because if I stuck with 15psi the math would have me somewhere in the 6 hour range. 
Venting for 5 min once the pressure hits 5psi.
Quarters are a on there as well. 

You probably haven't seen me post much on here but I've gone though my process literally from start to finish, working, ducumenting and keeping track of EVERY step of process including different methods of the same process to rule things out.  On Top of that I've worked it backwards to help narrow down where my issues lie and its ALL centering around the coir stage.

I even have a friend who had 60 total jars.  50 of them spawned and had a 100% success rate we took 5 of them and used his methods at my place and they went bad at the SAME stage mine are going bad.  we use the same tek, coir etc.  the 2 differences here are teh alt. (he's at 7k im at 10k) and the water (he's on city im on well).


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Invisible10kVisions
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: Goatrider]
    #27300092 - 05/08/21 11:51 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Goatrider said:
Hmm...very uncommon to me.
I think with your temp range molds should easily be killed.
But yeah, i would never prep my coir in a bucket used for grain soak beforehand.
You won`t get it clean without sterilizing i mean.

            :cookiemonster:




as that makes sense... ive also had 3 igloo coolers I grabbed (brand new) cleaned them and ONLY did the coir in them.  no grains, and.... same result.


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Invisible10kVisions
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: Sir Pentinite]
    #27300096 - 05/08/21 11:55 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sir Pentinite said:
Look at what changed: your location and altitude. Are you compensating for the lower PC pressure due to altitude with either higher gauge pressure or longer cycle times?

The pressure a PC gauge shows is only in addition to local atmospheric pressure. In your case it's only running at about 24.7psia and 239°F instead of 29.7psia/250° like at sea level. Sterilization time vs temperature is a nonlinear curve, so a 5% reduction in temp will need more than a 5% increase in time. How much is the subject of much scientific research.

Quote:

10kVisions said:
Could I use a pressure cooker to get the water temp up higher?  When I let the pressure out would the temp drop down being too low again?




You could and it would be a great way to end up in a burn ward needing skin grafts. When you heat water under pressure to a temperature higher than the local boiling temperature, releasing the pressure abruptly will cause it to either boil extremely vigorously or flash to steam and expand explosively. There's no way to get it out of the PC as a liquid at a temp higher than 194°F in your case.

More importantly, the only reason to use hot water when rehydrating coir is simply because it rehydrates better, not because it kills anything. Besides, pasteurization is done at a lot lower temp than 194. You should be able to use water straight out of the tap if you want. The coir you say works for you may have trichoderma added for the benefit of plants. If you really want to try nuking it with hot water, use Bod's tek and make it in an ice chest or water cooler so it stays hot for a long time.




as stated above I have adjusted eventing I need to adjust for my alt.  and im also using the same coir that everyone around me uses... I went though a total of 6 companies and the Zoo Med Eco Earth works best with the least contains.  I also find that a TON of people on here recommend that one as well.  ive used the cooler thing... let it sit for 24hours etc.. etc..  im not new to this.  although I do feel like ANYthing I post on here thats what people assume lol.


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OfflineKnucklehead
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: 10kVisions]
    #27300151 - 05/08/21 12:38 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

We dont know what you know or exactly what you've done. We only know the little you've told us and the issues you're having.

Gotta ask the basics.

The starch in the bucket vector has been discussed on here. Notably by cron and pasty. It's not an obvious thing to search for, so I thought I'd mention it.

The insistence that your water temperature is the issue with the coir prep is where I think the faulty reasoning to lie. Your temps are well within the range to kill mold. The coir type is also the same variety so many people on here use, with little to no issue. It's been discussed ad nauseam that coir is extremely resistant to molds and bacteria naturally and doesnt require pasteurization.

I'd say get a clean, coir only bucket and try that.

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Invisible10kVisions
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: Knucklehead]
    #27300160 - 05/08/21 12:45 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

don't you think using the new igloo coolers I bought having never had anyting in them except the alcohol I used to clean them would do just that?

Also this is my colonization 100% of the time in my knock jars, from agar.  then I do G2G inside a sab.  never do I have a jar go bad.  even after colonizing and letting sit 3x over... no bad jars, ever.





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Edited by 10kVisions (05/08/21 12:49 PM)

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OfflineKnucklehead
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: 10kVisions]
    #27300184 - 05/08/21 01:07 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

10kVisions said:
I do soak my grains in the same buckets




Your words. Cant help if you're not being consistent.

And all I initially set out to do was offer a possible avenue you hadn't considered. But if you're gonna get butthurt based on what you assume to be my judgement of your competence, I wont bother.

Good luck.

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Invisible10kVisions
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Re: Water Temps Question [Re: Knucklehead]
    #27300354 - 05/08/21 03:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Knucklehead said:
Quote:

10kVisions said:
I do soak my grains in the same buckets




Your words. Cant help if you're not being consistent.

And all I initially set out to do was offer a possible avenue you hadn't considered. But if you're gonna get butthurt based on what you assume to be my judgement of your competence, I wont bother.

Good luck.




well actually I replied with this as well "as that makes sense... ive also had 3 igloo coolers I grabbed (brand new) cleaned them and ONLY did the coir in them.  no grains, and.... same result"

no ones getting butt hurt over here.  I can't help it if you don't read the whole thread and respond with  statements about questions I already answered.


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