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InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,695
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27323582 - 05/26/21 07:47 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

this is the best estimate
if I said 10 I would be lying and if I said 1 I would be underrating it in negative rating
people go around and don't understand how bad it is oh suicide thats a little bad people do it it's ununderstanding and ignorant
there's a lot of that stuff racism and youknowwhere (you know who) brain should understand qualities in fact all I demand it


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with our love with our love we could save the world

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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,239
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27324102 - 05/26/21 04:48 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

The US government doesn't want what's best for you, that's not a conspiracy.

I came across a journal suggesting there are preventative aspects to SJW that could help with respiratory diseases, there was a stipulation however, that for Covid 19 specifically, there are still studies required.

Quote:

Because of Echinacea’s reduction on virus cytokine liberation, it can shorten and relieve the severity of symptoms as a result of pro-inflammatory cytokines release [58, 59]. An in vivo study is needed to evaluate the effect of Echinacea on cytokine regulating during COVID-19 infection together with the anti-viral effect found in this study of H. perforatum

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.11.426295v1.full




Again though that doesn't mean this is proven for Covid 19. As in, something that helps with one disease doesn't necessitate that it will help with another, albeit similar disease.

This is what I mean though about muddying the picture, there are kernals of truth to these things but then you make additions like saying no anti-depressants wont cause your boobs to grow.

There are natural medicines but they are not cure all's and there is a lot of snake medicine about the industry.

I wish it was clear to me you understood the concept of full context.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,061
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27324128 - 05/26/21 05:14 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

@sudly,
did you give up entirely on mentioning that the viral nature - the virulence of Covid, i.e. the spreadability of this deadly disease - is why vaccination is the ONLY effective way of reducing the numbers of people dying daily in hospitals.
Getting the government to support vaccination over the last couple of years has been an enormous effort by people who care about life and death of people.
Without people there is no country.
so yeah, without people there is no governments.
if you want to call that self serving, then in some strange poetic way, you are onto something, but it aint no conspiracy.
it has been a real plague, and continues to be one.
and will continue to be one until at least 60-80% of all people everywhere are vaccinated, which has been considered probably effective enough immunity to prevent wildcat spreading.

immunization (vaccination) stimulates the immune system and teaches it to react quickly against this virus and so far also against the mutant strains that have quickly developed while fools continue to get into crowds without masks (to protest vaccination and any other necessary restrictions) against all sanity.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,239
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27324185 - 05/26/21 06:16 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Bar the vaccine which is necessary, the US government is not economically supportive of the general population in a meaningful way.

The vaccine rollout is also a taste of universal healthcare which should be applied to all medical needs, not just the corona vaccine.

That's the thing though, STP holds on to this notion that the rona vaccine is untested, when it's more tested than other vaccines. And then somehow that herbs that might have an impact on recovery are somehow a cure, in no way does the study I came across suggest you eat mugwort to cure corona, that's dangerous thinking and if he gets corona with that in mind, his chances of dying and infecting others will be far greater than they otherwise should have been.

How do you argue with someone who will praise contraception then villify a vaccine that has 100x less chance of causing curable blood clots?

It isn't what you say that matters because it's the ideology, the feeling of being a part of something, a movement that unintentionally or otherwise aims to kill itself and everyone around it.

You can say that one in a million gets curable anaphylaxis or blood clots and that correlation does not equal causation but they won't get it, they don't want to, they can't, because they'd see the movement they joined for what it is, a JOKE!



Instead you get this,


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,061
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: sudly]
    #27324603 - 05/27/21 04:13 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

sometimes the only thing that enables a person to feel intact is that they oppose another person.
some really bad marriages work that way.
the husband and wife hate and constantly berate each other.
when one dies or leaves, the other falls apart, their whole meaning in life, their purpose, their raison d'etre, was to oppose the other, and now, there is nothing to lean against, no gravity, and they drift away, hopelessly.

I mention this because clinging to aggression, obstinance, and looney belief can become essential and adequate - it is enough for some people to get out of bed and fight another day.

If there is no fight, then why even get out of bed.

A bad habit living to fight, or living to oppose, but I guess someone's gotta do it, we each find our own way to be.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineSTPLSD25
Shaman
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Registered: 10/14/20
Posts: 329
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27325204 - 05/27/21 01:13 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I did not say that herbs are a cure, and I'm pretty sure that would be illegal just to say. That is why you get FDA warnings on herbs that they're not intended to cure anything... There is no profit in curing people...

Respectfully, Sudly, please do not misrepresent my words.I see you doing it a lot. Redgreenvines is totally capable of unignoring me and taking to me himself, we're not in grade school. I'm not running or hiding from anyone.

I believe there is more evidence for the safety and effectiveness of herbs, than this untested vaccine which is already causing adverse effects. Mugwort is called "sailors tobacco" because sailors used to smoke it commonly like tobacco, and it is theorized they got sick less despite extended periods of isolation, then being exposed to more germs in port. 

Also, maybe it seemed like I was insinuating all anti-depressants make people grow boobs, I am not. I was merely expressing the fact that many of these chemicals do have adverse effects down the road, and also there's no way of knowing for certain that these Big Pharm drugs are safe. Many cause adverse effects, though some are more extreme like making males grow boobs.

Moreover, with the question on the herbs, I clearly signified both times that it was effective preventing against the first SARS coronavirus, not that it was against Covid19... Only that I would rather take my chances with it than an untested chemical.


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"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

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OfflineSTPLSD25
Shaman
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Registered: 10/14/20
Posts: 329
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27325207 - 05/27/21 01:16 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Btw, you got vaccinated and you can still get Covid... So, good job big pharm! Now it's "oh, well you're less likely to give it to others."

Btw, you guys are the one's trying to force something unto me with Government Guns, I'm merely stating my opinion.


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"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,239
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27325590 - 05/27/21 06:14 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Before I go any further, have you ever taken cocaine? Or powdered illicit drugs?

And you're vaccinated to not die from it, so instead of being super sick and going to hospital, you experience mild flu like symptoms at worst, often no symptoms at all.

It also reduces the viral load you give on to others but I don't know if that means anything to you.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Edited by sudly (05/27/21 06:25 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 38,061
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: sudly]
    #27325613 - 05/27/21 06:33 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Before I go any further, have you ever taken cocaine? Or powdered illicit drugs?

And you're vaccinated to not die from it, so instead of being super sick and going to hospital, you experience mild flu like symptoms at worst, often no symptoms at all.

It also reduces the viral load you give on to others but I don't know if that means anything to you.




what does this mean?
are you saying that cocaine lessens Covid effects, more than hydroxychloroquinine??? does the Trump know?
we could be bathing in bleach and having a cocaine hootenany with the good old boys!


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
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Registered: 03/02/15
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Last seen: 29 days, 9 hours
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25] * 1
    #27326090 - 05/28/21 12:12 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

STPLSD25 said:
Btw, you got vaccinated and you can still get Covid... So, good job big pharm! Now it's "oh, well you're less likely to give it to others."

Btw, you guys are the one's trying to force something unto me with Government Guns, I'm merely stating my opinion.




There's no shortage of clueless statists on this site that have been convinced they're on the winning side of history, while exemplifying all the qualities they claim that have been ruining history.

Also this is your fault for being smart enough to not accept rational contradictions wedged via authority and group consensus fallacies = empirical data.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,239
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27326172 - 05/28/21 03:24 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

One analogy for vaccines is that it's like they turn a shotgun into a nerf gun.

"But that's untested pseudoscience!"

"Because the government has failed me economically, scientists are wrong too!"

This is all I hear :facepalm:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,239
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27326174 - 05/28/21 03:26 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Patience, I want to hear what STP says.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,061
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: sudly]
    #27326268 - 05/28/21 06:30 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

sudly,
you are a noble entity - a diplomat in a veiled war against the politics of division.

loaded shaman,
you are a wolf in sheep's clothing under the banner of the spirit within.

STP,
you are a warrior without a cause, fighting to breathe in a world that is incomprehensible.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineSTPLSD25
Shaman
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Registered: 10/14/20
Posts: 329
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27333609 - 06/03/21 08:30 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, science is deeply flawed and controlled by companies as well, this is no secret and has been going on for about 70 years when the tobacco industry started to fund "science" to support smoking, then the plastic industry did it with BPA, Teflon with PFOA and, and Monsanto with the bees and glyphosate. They support "science" that says what they want you to hear. They use "Science" to muddy the waters, and I highly doubt the CDC and FDA would give us anything less. Frankly, your modern western civilization is a suicide cult, and I refuse to be another lab rat to the extent I can control.

Also, I think the cocaine thing is completely irrelevant. "Have you ever?" maybe 15 odd years ago, just make your point regarding cocaine, because I don't think it's relevant. I will not address your statement about me "not caring" about others, because it's not true.

Redgreenvine - lmao at you trying to pass judgement on us, especially while calling sudly, who is asking for blind conformity to Government "science" a "diplomat," and Loaded Shaman who is a very intelligent guy who (again) merely stated an opinion that differs from your own a "wolf." I think the real wolves are the people who refuse any new information regarding the vaccines and try to force them on people anyway by attacking and attempting to discredit them, using the narrative of known liars, who (even Sudly, the 'diplomat' said) are not trustworthy and do not care about their people. 

"The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices - to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own for the children... and the children yet unborn. "-Rod Serling


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

Edited by STPLSD25 (06/03/21 08:32 AM)

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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,239
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27334546 - 06/03/21 11:52 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Science grows from its mistakes. We're lucky to be in the time we are where we don't have radium watches.

I welcome new information regarding the vaccines that you can reference.

I was going to make a point that you've taken chances with untested things such as cocaine. And to add to that, that the covid 19 vaccine is not 'untested' as you consistently claim.

I don't think the US government makes economic decisions that are in the best interest of the public. However, I do understand that there is a difference between scientific endeavours and the government. As in, the government and science are separate entities.

The best I can do is provide my own insights and some information regarding vaccine development you may or may not be interested in.

Quote:

Vaccine research costs money — a lot of money — and often this can be difficult to secure.

Less so in a pandemic, it turns out, and in the face of widespread social and economic devastation.

Thanks to billions of dollars from governments, the private sector, and funding bodies like CEPI, researchers had access to immediate and substantial funding for COVID-19 vaccines.

This meant multiple clinical trials were launched quickly, and pharmaceutical companies were able to manufacture and stockpile vaccines before they even knew if they were effective.

In normal circumstances, drug companies never hedge their bets like this — it would be too costly if their vaccine failed and the doses had to be scrapped.

But in a pandemic, having the right infrastructure in place and vaccine doses ready to go is critical, so governments assumed bigger financial risks.




There were vaccines created before the three phases of a vaccine trial examined how effective and safe they were. So in a sense there were untested vaccines at large, the caveat to this is that these vaccines were not given to the general public, because they still had to be vetted through the three phases of vaccine trials

Quote:

One of the reasons vaccine development normally takes so long is because the testing process itself — specifically, the time in between the different phases of clinical trials.

First, the vaccine needs to be tested in cells in the lab, and then it must be shown to be safe and protect against infection in animals. Next, researchers have to get approval to study the vaccine in humans, and secure funding to start the first of three phases of human trials.

Phase 1: Testing in a small number of humans. This part is about making sure the vaccine is safe.

Phase 2: More testing in humans — does the vaccine trigger strong immune responses?

Phase 3: Testing in a larger number of humans to confirm its efficacy and safety.




When you say that the vaccine is untested, it isn't clear what you mean, because no untested vaccines have been provided to the general public.

There are good reasons why the Covid 19 vaccine research and development has been fast tracked.

Quote:

At each stage, pharmaceutical companies also want to assess the data and work out if the vaccine is worth pursuing. All of this can take years.

While the COVID-19 vaccines have gone through the same rigorous safety checks, the clinical trials have been prioritized, so there's been little waiting around.

Thanks to significant funding injections and lots of people willing to take part in research, scientists have been able to run clinical trials in parallel — e.g. recruiting for phase 3 while they're still finishing phase 1 — rather than do things sequentially (and slowly).

This, in addition to getting data to drug regulators earlier, has shaved months if not years off the process. Most importantly, it hasn't compromised the safety of the vaccines.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/13096682




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Edited by sudly (06/04/21 07:00 AM)

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OfflineSTPLSD25
Shaman
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: sudly]
    #27338697 - 06/07/21 10:00 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

PFOA was on the market for years before they realized it stays in the human system for life, and is sometimes even passed down to your kids and grandkids. Also, that it causes cancer, liver diseases, auto immune disorders etc etc etc... You really think a years worth of testing is an accurate depiction? Mugwort has been used for thousands of years. Even cocaine and LSD have been around 50 years.. I feel that it's fair to say that those have been somewhat tested. But one year of pumping it out and bribing people to get it is not testing. They already have an ideal outcome they will pretend happened no matter what actually does. If we're taking advice from the source, then Teflon and PFOA is also safe, because Du Pont said so... Even though, you know, they said that for years until people started dying and having deformed children.


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

Edited by STPLSD25 (06/07/21 10:01 AM)

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Offlineyeah
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: yeah]
    #27339168 - 06/07/21 04:36 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Hey guys I wasn't trying to get the discussion honed in solely on the merit of a vaccine mandate.
I was more curious to hear from anyone that supports it and is also pro choice since the argument "my body, my choice" should apply to opposing a vaccine mandate, as well.


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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,239
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: yeah]
    #27339188 - 06/07/21 04:46 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Having a baby only effects the body of the person having the baby and a virus effects the bodies of people around us.

Babies aren't contagious so I don't think my body my choice applies to the vaccine.

Because others don't get a choice if you infect them.

They do have a choice for how they react though, as in they'd be less likely to get I'll if they're vaccinated.

In having a choice not to vaccinate you take away people's choice to live and be healthy.

I don't think vaccines should be mandated, just that there be some sort of vaccine passport or allowance. So that if you choose not to be vaccinate, others can choose not to be around you.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: yeah]
    #27339229 - 06/07/21 05:11 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Sure, it's my body, my choice whether or not to have a child, but also, if there is no way you will be a good mother, you should know it and abort before you ruin the child's life by abandoning its needs.

Pro choice is for the next generation so that they will know they were wanted.
Pro vaccine is also for the next generation, so there will be one.

these issues are not about personal freedom they are about our custody of humanity - the future is in our hands.


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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,239
Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27339639 - 06/08/21 03:13 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

STPLSD25 said:
PFOA was on the market for years before they realized it stays in the human system for life, and is sometimes even passed down to your kids and grandkids. Also, that it causes cancer, liver diseases, auto immune disorders etc etc etc... You really think a years worth of testing is an accurate depiction? Mugwort has been used for thousands of years. Even cocaine and LSD have been around 50 years.. I feel that it's fair to say that those have been somewhat tested. But one year of pumping it out and bribing people to get it is not testing. They already have an ideal outcome they will pretend happened no matter what actually does. If we're taking advice from the source, then Teflon and PFOA is also safe, because Du Pont said so... Even though, you know, they said that for years until people started dying and having deformed children.




In a regular vaccine trial they might test a thousand people over 3 years. Because of the urgency and virulence of Covid, they were able to test tens of thousands in less than a year. Volunteers were more willing to test.

The phase 1 trial is dangerous, there's no doubt, but that's why these are done, to see what effects if any there are.

I don't see that you recognise the urgency behind developing a vaccine and the processes that allow it to be fast tracked.

When PFOAs were tested they found it was carcinogenic and bioaccumulated.

It's odd how it took 30 years for pressure to grow strong enough for widespread testing, but that's capitalism.

I can see where you're coming from in having analogous doubts on a vaccine, there have been awfully untested or falsely marketed products.

I see a vaccine as less of a commercial product and more of a health matter. I think you're on a slippery slope though, because if you don't trust vaccine testing due to PFOAs, then what will you trust and where will it end? It sounds to me like you've fallen off the cliff of ever trusting consumerism or capitalism in action, which as I see is fair enough.

I can't say I trust the systems of governance that run the US more that I could throw a damn elephant, but I do acknowledge that in order to beat a pandemic we have to rely on a vaccine, you seem to agree that vaccines in theory work, but you're not comfortable with the accelerated trailing that has occurred.

I've heard some people say they'll wait a year or two to see how it goes. How people react.

But some people don't have that choice, because they live in a hazardous area where they could become Covid positive, and for some people that's a death sentence.

We have to weigh up the risks, do I risk getting Covid and suffocating alone? Or do I get a jab and risk anaphylaxis and blood clots that could be cured if I get medical attention quickly. The odds of falling from the vaccine are one to a million, the odds of falling to Covid are one in every 30 to 100 people.

:themoreyouknow:

I don't believe I will ever have kids. I don't want to focus my life and give up my 'freedom' to consumate someone else's life. If I had a child at this moment my life would spiral and I can't say the child wouldn't find themselves astray.

I don't want to pay for a child either. If we want to stop women from being pregnant, we should stop them from getting pregnant and I don't believe all the responsibility falls on women. If you would force a woman's body to conceive, would you not be innately hypocritical not to force a man to be incapable of letting a woman's body conceive either.

I am pro vaccine, and I am pro choice.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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