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Offlineyeah
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Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice?
    #27299354 - 05/07/21 11:34 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

So I think this is the best subforum...

I forget where it was but there was a thread on here with a poll that had a lot of people who believed the covid vaccine should be mandatory. A lot of the posters on here who I have a hunch would have said yes to that are generally left leaning types.

With describing the context of my question being out of the way:

Would it be illogical to be both pro mandatory vaccination and pro choice?
The argument pro choice individuals make the most is that no one's opinion should take precedence over someone else's physical autonomy.
(I'm pro choice but not primarily because of that)
Since telling someone who would rather not be vaccinated that they must would also be an instance of this then what is your take?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: yeah] * 2
    #27299379 - 05/07/21 11:56 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Well its an old issue: the rights of the individual vs. those of society or a nation.
As the history of the draft (military) shows the answer has varied over time.
These days education is so bad in the USA most have no idea what the history of vaccinations world wide is and of those diseases that were vanquished by vaccination, and also no understanding of risk reward ratios. So the result is a lot of ignorant folks making a big fuss in the world's richest country, while places like India and Brazil etc wish they could get vaccines. It all adds up to the usual: more human folly.

And of course a moments thought will make clear that when it comes to nuclear subs they sure aren't fooling around with  the "rights"  of the crew, to have 'personal' opinions.

Also nothing has been learned in many other countries either, where every time protocols are relaxed another wave or spike in cases and deaths occurs. India is the latest, after its stupid religious festival, where millions rubbed shoulders, etc.


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Edited by laughingdog (05/07/21 11:59 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: yeah] * 1
    #27300872 - 05/09/21 12:04 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Quote:

yeah said:
So I think this is the best subforum...

I forget where it was but there was a thread on here with a poll that had a lot of people who believed the covid vaccine should be mandatory. A lot of the posters on here who I have a hunch would have said yes to that are generally left leaning types.

With describing the context of my question being out of the way:

Would it be illogical to be both pro mandatory vaccination and pro choice?
The argument pro choice individuals make the most is that no one's opinion should take precedence over someone else's physical autonomy.
(I'm pro choice but not primarily because of that)
Since telling someone who would rather not be vaccinated that they must would also be an instance of this then what is your take?




The argument would be that not taking the vaccine was harmful to the physical autonomy of others.

I suspect pro vax and pro choice more often go together but also that there are plenty of instances of one and not the other. One could suggest in a vax mandate one is forcing a person to submit to a foreign element, which presumably won't kill them. The other is ending a life, or a process depending on how one thinks about it.

I'm pro choice (but not pro pro-choice iykwim) and pro vax-choice. The hysteria surrounding CV19 just won't go away. As far as pandemics it's a featherweight. Kills the old who are compromised and not immune, so let the old get the vaccine if they want. Kills the overweight. That sucks, especially considering obesity rates. If one is overweight, let them decide if they want to get the vaccine.

It's not worth infringing on the personal liberty of everyone. If it were a truly awful disease there would be little resistance to the idea it should be a choice and everyone would take it. What's illogical are the wheels that have been set in motion as a result of this bio-weapon/natural consequence of playing with nature. The response belies a well considered plan to take advantage of a crisis imsho. Examining various sources at this point reveals a fatality rate of between 1 and 2 percent for reported cases. This suggests to me a fatality rate of around .33 percent when considering unreported cases. Thrice more deadly than the flu... But only for the old and at risk. If you are fit, your chance of dying from it is nearly zero.

Or submit to a global ID. Submit to being tracked. We want to know everything about you. We will give you everything you need. You just have to do what we tell you to do including submitting to any foreign element we deem necessary.

Should we all just be pumped with fear and willing to take an experimental vaccine? Has it gotten to the point where the body is being hacked, and anti-virus software will be needed to be updated? Was CV19 the first attempt of many to come; to depopulate humanity?, to win WW3?. Shut down wet markets and end pathogen research, or force everyone on Earth to get vaccines to protect us from those things?

Because the lock down and response has severely fucked up a lot of people's lives. We are worse off because of the response. We knew early on the pathway of death and ignored it, instead dedicating precious resources to protecting every single life with various useless measures that were expensive and time consuming.

smh. Humanity is truly sheepish, despicable, and all other bad things. Per my thread, cure vs disease, the cure was worse, is worse, and will continue to be worse. It is the gift that keeps on giving.


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: yeah]
    #27301015 - 05/09/21 04:40 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

I reckon mandatory vaccinations are fine, and that choice is fine too.

As in, people have the right to choose not to wear a mask or get a vaccine, and private companies have the right to refuse people who don't wear masks or haven't had a vaccine.

Other wise to me it seems like having your cake and eating it too, because you'd have the right to make a choice, but a private company doesn't?

I think it'd be off the rails if the government made it mandatory, but not if private companies did for their employees.

If it was for customers coming to woolworths or something that'd be cray cray too imo.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: sudly]
    #27301108 - 05/09/21 07:09 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

so choice is not about abortion?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27301596 - 05/09/21 02:39 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

apparently I was wrong about the military in general
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/19/politics/us-military-vaccinations/index.html

but some vaccines are required:
"The military cannot make the vaccine mandatory now because it only has an emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration, meaning service members who are required to receive a series of other vaccinations have the option of declining shots to protect against Covid-19."

U.S. Military and Vaccine History
https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/us-military-and-vaccine-history

https://portal.ct.gov/OMA/In-the-News/2021-News/Submarine-Base-Commander-Embraces-Vaccine-in-Battle-Against-COVID19
"The Pentagon has its own vaccine supply and distribution plan separate from the general public, and at this point hundreds of sub base personnel, including Moore, submarine crews, medical staff and emergency responders, have gotten their first doses."

Who knows what the rules are for the Chinese & Russian military forces;
however it seems they are
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=are+Chinese+%26+Russian+military+forces+vaccinated&t=hd&va=u&ia=web

Could be they win a war simply on the basis of being better vaccinated, reminds one of the ending of "War of the Worlds" by HG Wells. Could be time to write a new version of the story.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27301655 - 05/09/21 03:45 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

the Marshan flu?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27301672 - 05/09/21 04:02 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

exactly

in the spoof movie "Mars Attacks"
they changed it to weird music with a song
at about 1 minute in:


which has interesting effects on the martians


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27301679 - 05/09/21 04:11 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Note it was the computer animation of 1996, and features some movie stars

according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Attacks!
"Mars Attacks! is a 1996 American comic science fiction film[2] directed by Tim Burton, who also co-produced it with Larry J. Franco. The screenplay, which was based on the trading card series of the same name, was written by Jonathan Gems. The film features an ensemble cast consisting of Jack Nicholson (in a dual role), Glenn Close, Annette Bening, Pierce Brosnan, Danny DeVito, Martin Short, Sarah Jessica Parker, Michael J. Fox, Rod Steiger, Tom Jones, Lukas Haas, Pam Grier, Natalie Portman, Jim Brown, Lisa Marie, and Sylvia Sidney in her final film role.

Alex Cox had tried to make a Mars Attacks film in the 1980s before Burton and Gems began development in 1993. When Gems turned in his first draft in 1994, Warner Bros. commissioned rewrites from Gems, Burton, Scott Alexander and Larry Karaszewski in an attempt to lower the budget to $60 million. The final production budget came to $80 million, while Warner Bros. spent another $20 million on the Mars Attacks! marketing campaign. Filming took place from February to November 1996. The film was shot in California, Nevada, Kansas, Arizona and Argentina.

The filmmakers hired Industrial Light & Magic to create the Martians using computer animation after their previous plan to use stop motion animation, supervised by Barry Purves, fell through because of budget limitations. Mars Attacks! was released theatrically by Warner Bros. Pictures in the United States on December 13, 1996 and received mixed reviews from critics. The film grossed approximately $101 million in box office totals, which was seen as a disappointment. Mars Attacks! was nominated for the Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation and earned multiple nominations at the Saturn Awards."


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Edited by laughingdog (05/09/21 04:12 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27302382 - 05/10/21 05:08 AM (1 month, 2 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so choice is not about abortion?




Haha lol, I thought pro choice was about the choice to vaccinate or not.

I think about it so little I didn't even make the connection here :lol:

If men get to choose what happens to women's bodies, women get to choose vasectomies for men.

Late term abortions after the 22 week mark are more erronious and subject to medical, mental health or serious financial woes imo.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineVajrabhairava
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: sudly]
    #27317136 - 05/21/21 08:01 AM (22 days, 15 hours ago)

IMO it is a civic duty to get the vaccine as a means to disarm the people causing such hysteria around Covid.

I don't understand how someone can be anti-lockdown, anti-mask and anti-vaccine.

I am so anti-lockdown, think masks are only really working in the limit but not doing anything in practice and I drove almost an hour to get the vaccine as soon as I could. These crazy mask people have no point now.

It was nothing. I didn't feel any effects at all. The effects people are feeling are probably all placebo.

People need to stop letting social media algorithms do their thinking for them and use their brains. A rational person would get a vaccine. The only reason you would not is because of some delusional you are joining a psychological outgroup that you think you are against.


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: Vajrabhairava]
    #27317403 - 05/21/21 01:16 PM (22 days, 9 hours ago)

I think they should've mandated Agent Orange shots during Vietnam, since we were so convinced it was safe and all... I'm being sarcastic btw, the only people I trust less than the Pharmaceutical Industry is the US Government.


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"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25] * 1
    #27317526 - 05/21/21 02:41 PM (22 days, 8 hours ago)

but you trust yourself a bit, maybe.
find out the facts and then trust your own ability to think it through.


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #27317873 - 05/21/21 08:35 PM (22 days, 2 hours ago)

The fact is that the US Government sprayed Agent Orange on it's own soldiers causing liver and skin cancer, denied the  effects for years, meanwhile demonizing herbs like marijuana and Kratom which have been used relatively safely for thousands of years... Now they want to force an untested chemical on me less than a year after it was invented? One that, btw, has made people sick and even killed young and healthy people? Yeah, I do trust myself... Not to be so stupid, ever. 

No offense, I mean, I don't WANT covid, but I'll take my risks with natural Antivirals (of which there are many..) the Govt and big Pharm can get fucked and mosey on.


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


Edited by STPLSD25 (05/21/21 08:36 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27317933 - 05/21/21 09:24 PM (22 days, 1 hour ago)

My first pet was called Agent Orange.

He was an orange hermit crab that climbed around a lot, and I didn't know about the chemical when I was a kid.

Natural antiviral? Do explain!

The Covid vaccine is tested or tenfold more people than other vaccines because of how many people are effected.

It's tested more than other vaccines..

Do you trust the polio vaccine?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27317969 - 05/21/21 10:08 PM (22 days, 58 minutes ago)

Quote:

STPLSD25 said:
The fact is that the US Government sprayed Agent Orange on it's own soldiers causing liver and skin cancer, denied the  effects for years, meanwhile demonizing herbs like marijuana and Kratom which have been used relatively safely for thousands of years... Now they want to force an untested chemical on me less than a year after it was invented? One that, btw, has made people sick and even killed young and healthy people? Yeah, I do trust myself... Not to be so stupid, ever. 

No offense, I mean, I don't WANT covid, but I'll take my risks with natural Antivirals (of which there are many..) the Govt and big Pharm can get fucked and mosey on.



conspiracy much?


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #27318200 - 05/22/21 03:26 AM (21 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

STPLSD25 said:
The fact is that the US Government sprayed Agent Orange on it's own soldiers causing liver and skin cancer, denied the  effects for years, meanwhile demonizing herbs like marijuana and Kratom which have been used relatively safely for thousands of years... Now they want to force an untested chemical on me less than a year after it was invented? One that, btw, has made people sick and even killed young and healthy people? Yeah, I do trust myself... Not to be so stupid, ever. 

No offense, I mean, I don't WANT covid, but I'll take my risks with natural Antivirals (of which there are many..) the Govt and big Pharm can get fucked and mosey on.



conspiracy much?




Right because there's tons of profit to be made by making sure redgreenvines has a 100% accurate, with-it world paradigm that in no way shape or form is so because it's composed entirely of a plethora of pre-conditioned distortions he takes as facts, reinforced by group consensus his entire life.

Nope, it's coincidence skeptics that are out of touch!

Everything in your books and on the news is 100% accurate, government would never kill its own for reasons most couldn't fathom, nor does it control said population under the threat of force for non-compliance. That's some dystopian anime bullshit for losers! It's also making sure the corporations that have more money than you are totally not lobbying to push narratives and agendas while spinning statistics to fit your biases so you get the fuck out of the way and literally pay to be robbed some more! Nope, totally not how current society works!

That shit is pure conspiracy because it'd be on the news!

The rest of the level headed, drug abusing folk here are smarter than that!

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
but you trust yourself a bit, maybe.
find out the facts and then trust your own ability to think it through.




You mean mainstream news and media claims that continue to contradict one another?


--------------------

“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather.”
-Bill Hicks


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #27318258 - 05/22/21 06:07 AM (21 days, 16 hours ago)

Hey, no one's saying the US government isn't a dystopian plutocracy of low wages, no healthcare, no mandatory work benefits like paid leave, and especially no political will to stop pharmaceutical price gouging.

Squeezing people of their money for things like insulin because if people don't pay they die.

I think the point being made here is simply that the vaccine works, irrelevant of political and corporate capitalisation.

The tactic used was divide and conquer, get the people to attack eachothers while the filthy rich run out the back with their profits.

The democrats are essentially republicans that put rainbow flags on their missiles, because economically they're rather similar.

Mainstream media isn't journalism, their job is to be stenographers to the elite, the powerful.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27318285 - 05/22/21 07:08 AM (21 days, 15 hours ago)

Loaded,
I am talking about what you can prove beyond any doubt using scientific methods, by yourself.

we can all theorize - and tend to do it before we have a good grasp of what is going on.

every perception is a guess.
keep it simple.


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: Pro vaccine mandate + Pro choice? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27320906 - 05/24/21 09:33 AM (19 days, 13 hours ago)

Lmao... Conspiracy? Do your research. It's a well-known FACT the Government was spraying Agent Orange on their own troops in Vietnam, and Vets are dying to this day from Liver and Skin cancer caused by it. That's not to mention some of the nuclear clean up crews who went in in shorts and T shirts with no masks... The Government failed to tell them how dangerous the radiation actually was. I'd LOVE to know what part of that you think is "conspiracy."


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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