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InvisibleCrazy_Horse
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27294435 - 05/04/21 06:10 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)



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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: zoidbergo]
    #27294439 - 05/04/21 06:15 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It's the same thing as buying store brand aspirin instead of Bayer. Any vaccines made will still have to meet all of the relevant safety standards of whatever nation they will be distributed in.



You would hope. I don’t think that is true. A lot of places there will be black market vaccines. Producing vaccines is not like producing a drug. Drug synthesis is pretty straight forward. Making a quality vaccine is much more involved. Look what happened at the J&J facility in Baltimore. Now imagine that happening somewhere with less rigorous regulatory oversight. The meta problem is that some manufacturing problem due to low standards will affect the entire vaccination effort. The problems with the J&J vaccines have caused people to be hesitant about all the vaccines. The pharmaceutical companies are ramping up production wherever they can, but they are being careful to not have issues like J&J had in Baltimore.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlineqman
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: zoidbergo] * 1
    #27294564 - 05/04/21 07:41 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoidbergo said:
It's the same thing as buying store brand aspirin instead of Bayer. Any vaccines made will still have to meet all of the relevant safety standards of whatever nation they will be distributed in.

The concern is that, for a pharma company, why invest billions in drug/vaccine development if they'll have to share the profits of a miraculous discovery with everyone else? They wouldn't be able to recoup the costs of their investment if they couldn't patent their discoveries. Unfortunately we don't have an economic system that incentivizes providing medicine to those who need it, or literally anything else, over profit.




Yeah, those poor Big Pharma companies.

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/after-nearly-1b-research-funding-moderna-takes-1-5b-coronavirus-vaccine-order-from-u-s

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-09/pfizer-vaccine-s-funding-came-from-berlin-not-washington


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: qman]
    #27295104 - 05/05/21 06:22 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

It's the same thing as buying store brand aspirin instead of Bayer. Any vaccines made will still have to meet all of the relevant safety standards of whatever nation they will be distributed in.



You would hope. I don’t think that is true. A lot of places there will be black market vaccines. Producing vaccines is not like producing a drug. Drug synthesis is pretty straight forward. Making a quality vaccine is much more involved. Look what happened at the J&J facility in Baltimore. Now imagine that happening somewhere with less rigorous regulatory oversight. The meta problem is that some manufacturing problem due to low standards will affect the entire vaccination effort. The problems with the J&J vaccines have caused people to be hesitant about all the vaccines. The pharmaceutical companies are ramping up production wherever they can, but they are being careful to not have issues like J&J had in Baltimore.




“Look even us whites had trouble!”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295357 - 05/05/21 10:27 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Stop being racist


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27295379 - 05/05/21 10:51 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I’m just pointing out that your argument against waiving IP is that the poor countries could mess up the vaccine, and your example is that we, the rich country with the IP, messed up the vaccine.

So either you’re defeating your own argument or you’re being a chauvinist and repeating (by sheer coincidence I’m sure) the talking points of the defendants of the IP regime; that the global south is too stupid and primitive to manufacture vaccines themselves, and in fact it would be DANGEROUS to let them try. Like tossing a gun into the chimp exhibit at the zoo right?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295385 - 05/05/21 10:56 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

At the end of the day all these half baked arguments are constructed to defend the existing notion that a private company can keep to themselves a thing which may literally save millions of lives. This is a precedent global capital will not allow to set, especially given China’s rise (and their own global vaccine distribution).

What’s interesting is there have certainly been discussions within the Biden administration, the WTO, the EU, etc, about the potentially wonderful PR for the Western world to waive IP and vaccinate the entire world. We’d be justifying our hegemony over the world by stepping up and ending a once in a century global disaster, a much needed image boost after decades of blunders and withering global support. But in the end we decided against that so a couple companies wouldn’t lose market share for the next couple quarters.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295428 - 05/05/21 11:46 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

They aren’t keeping it to themselves. These companies have made over a billion doses. Just letting anyone make them is a bad idea. There are vaccines sitting on shelves just waiting for someone to make them. Why aren’t they?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295435 - 05/05/21 11:55 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I’m just pointing out that your argument against waiving IP is that the poor countries could mess up the vaccine, and your example is that we, the rich country with the IP, messed up the vaccine.





What I’m saying is you let anyone make the vaccine and human greed will destroy the vaccine effort. Greedy companies with no skin in the game will make garbage products sold under the name of these highly tested and proven products. No thank you.

Most countries have very little ability to regulate and oversee vaccine production.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (05/05/21 11:58 AM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27295454 - 05/05/21 12:09 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Greedy companies with no skin in the game will make garbage products sold under the name of these highly tested and proven products. No thank you.




This happens regardless lol, for every product that ever existed. Weird how China handled the virus  and subsequent vaccination the best, considering they’re a nation without patent law.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295457 - 05/05/21 12:12 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

You kinda made my point when you assume China is doing a good job vaccinating. Because they aren’t. They are way behind the rest of the world with barely 10% vaccinated. Seems like patents aren’t the problem.

Russia too. Why is it these countries with patent free vaccines are sucking?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (05/05/21 12:14 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27295459 - 05/05/21 12:15 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Just letting anyone make them is a bad idea.





You can keep saying that but you haven’t established a valid reason yet.

(Because there isn’t one)

You think all these nations and all these NGOs and activist groups are clueless? That the pharma lobbyists are putting forth these arguments because they’re valid? Or at they have the best interests of the citizens of the global south at heart? Gimme a break lol


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27295463 - 05/05/21 12:18 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
You kinda made my point when you assume China is doing a good job vaccinating. Because they aren’t. They are way behind the rest of the world with barely 10% vaccinated. Seems like patents aren’t the problem.

Russia too. Why is it these countries with patent free vaccines are sucking?





Patents are part of the problem. The easiest problem to solve. It takes Joe Biden signing a piece of paper.

But letting poor people get vaccinated for free isn’t what the pharma industry (or IP zealots like Bill Gates) want to accomplish, so instead they tell you that “hey even if we did do this thing that hurts our profit, it wouldn’t help anyway” and you gleefully eat it up. It appeals to Americans’ chauvinistic view of the parts of the world that aren’t here or Western Europe, that’s why they run the same argument against pulling out of Afghanistan. “We can’t [do the thing that’s gonna cost us money and power] because even if we did the savage natives would just screw it up.” The Afghan people are too stupid for democracy. The Congolese are too stupid for manufacture vaccines.



This is all of course ignoring the most important point of all: that vaccinating the entire world is a necessity. But hey, think of how much more money pharma will make with all the boosters and supplemental doses after they allow the virus to mutate in the poorer regions of the world :smile:


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Edited by The Ecstatic (05/05/21 12:36 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295494 - 05/05/21 12:54 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Here’s a non chauvinistic idea then: they can invent and make their own vaccines since they are so capable


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27295521 - 05/05/21 01:24 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Is it though? To act as though OECD nations in our superior intellect and engineering have constructed these vaccines? As though no prior factors have resulted in such a small portion of the world containing so much of its wealth (and its medical research as a result)?

Why didn’t Sudan pour $1.5B into a deal with Moderna? Who can say.


Asking why they don’t have the money for vaccine research when the richest country in the world does seems pretty chauvinistic to me. Or maybe I’m mistaken and you can clear up why you think the rich nations developed a vaccine before the poor ones (and are now refusing to share the recipe)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295535 - 05/05/21 01:32 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Good news though: it appears you won’t have to defend this genocidal policy anymore.

https://twitter.com/ambassadortai/status/1390021205974003720?s=21


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295539 - 05/05/21 01:37 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

"the savages will screw it up" is not the same thing as "they literally don't have the facilities required"
Getting doses out in third world countries is difficult because they don't have the super-cold storage/shipping infrastructure that is required.
It's not so simple as just releasing the IP.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295540 - 05/05/21 01:38 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Great for this pandemic. The next pandemic not so much. Vaccines are already a business pharmaceutical companies aren’t really interested in since they are extremely low profit and high risk. If they know all their effort will just be stolen if they succeed they won’t even waste their time.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods] * 1
    #27295546 - 05/05/21 01:47 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
"the savages will screw it up" is not the same thing as "they literally don't have the facilities required"
Getting doses out in third world countries is difficult because they don't have the super-cold storage/shipping infrastructure that is required.
It's not so simple as just releasing the IP.




This has been debunked friendo

Quote:

koods said:
Great for this pandemic. The next pandemic not so much. Vaccines are already a business pharmaceutical companies aren’t really interested in since they are extremely low profit and high risk. If they know all their effort will just be stolen if they succeed they won’t even waste their time.




And yet it’s a mainstay of their business model because they know the governments of the world won’t let them keep shoveling heroin to its people unless they provide some sort of public utility. If private industry doesn’t want to provide an essential service to society then we’ll keep our public funds, do it ourselves, and then maybe come to the conclusion that we don’t need private industry dictating the terms of our society’s health. Cant have that. But they’ll still piss and moan that it kills innovation just like they do about every single minuscule assault in their profits.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27295562 - 05/05/21 01:56 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Vaccines are not a mainstay at all. They’re at best a side project. If one company controlled  all the worlds covid vaccines and vaccinated the entire world it would make less money than any of the top ten pharmaceutical products.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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