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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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I thought the idea was rooted in observations of the recession of nearby galaxies. With the bb being an attempt to explain it.
You can welcome flat earth theory, but I wouldn't accommodate it.
What's there to accommodate if someone's going to say there's overwhelming evidence of something like reincarnation and then leave it at that.
"Trust me bro, I was Ghandi last save."
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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BrendanFlock
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If your waiting to test life with an experiment.. you might miss life itself.. that first thing.. the very epic of and epoch of novelty..
Though reproducible results are good for manufacturing.. testing life isn't everything..
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laughingdog
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Re: Where's Waldo? [Re: sudly] 1
#27299410 - 05/07/21 10:19 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: ...What's there to accommodate if someone's going to say there's overwhelming evidence of something like reincarnation and then leave it at that. ...
Not sure where you want to go with this. Yes there are thousands that believe in both reincarnation & the big bang and the bible, or some combination of them, along with other odd beliefs. No scientists aren't interested in reincarnation or genesis. And yes scientists vary in their attitudes toward the big bang hypothesis.
Is the idea of time having a beginning, at odds with all our experience - yes. Is the idea of something more dense than a black hole exploding into everything completely different from the logic most science expects -yes. Are Einstein and quantum theory also very strange - yes - but they do have many experimental verifications - yes Does the big bang have many experimental verifications - no -- its just a guess as to what explains the apparent expansion and background radiation of the cosmos.
Is this summary likely to have any effect on those committed to their beliefs - no. Might it have some value to those unsure of how to approach the subject? Perhaps, unlikely; but never the less, possibly.
Is a large part of religion guilty of first saying everything must have an explanation, but the only explanation possible is that God made it all because otherwise its too complex to have happened, but then saying God can't be explained -- and doesn't the big bang hypothesis follow the same pattern? And doesn't this pattern run counter to the best efforts of science in general? And isn't it peculiar how eager many are to ignore this?
Seems many people simply can't handle not knowing, and so latch onto anything that promises them a tidy predictable world, endorsed by some sort of authority. In general humans are not very impressive, which is another aspect of our nature many are uncomfortable with, having been raised by parents with unrealistic expectations. In youth this manifests as the desperate desire to be cool. Then folks become adults and acquire status symbols. Those who go for concepts acquire beliefs, and if they are still more intellectual they acquire academic degrees. Never the less the world remains uncertain and mysterious, which for those who are more relaxed is part of its charm.
Edited by laughingdog (05/07/21 10:40 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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yes, I agree to increase the charm do relax.
however, I would not like to oversimplify the physics theories around the big bang: as Sudly suggests, there are computations that put the event(s) 13.8 billion years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
this is more reasonable than the 7 day Genesis idea to me.
Yet, I prefer not to agonize over it, and what may have come before the BB - although it shows how locked into a paradigm of time and space and particles which are terribly convincing to my existence.
time itself may have attributes that are inconceivable to me and my quantum dimensional ignorance.
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laughingdog
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: yes, I agree to increase the charm do relax.
...however, I would not like to oversimplify the physics theories around the big bang: as Sudly suggests, there are computations that put the event(s) 13.8 billion years ago. ...
. As no one knows what goes on in black holes, although atoms are presumably collapsed, - but are the elementary particles themselves collapsed so that all that remains is a quark soup? . Since there is no answer to such questions, and the supposed singularity from which the big bang began, must have been unimaginably more dense, I doubt there are really any accurate models for either the 'singularity' or the so called 'big bang'. . There is also the ignored problem of where the singularity itself came from, or why it appeared and so on , it really all smacks of the same sort of mythology as religion. . At least religion doesn't pretend to be reasonable. The good side of religion is when they all go to church sing together, have picnics, and donate to charities and do good works; forget their arguments and feel good together. . A bad side of science is when it pollutes minds, with muddled 'thinking', for which unfortunately the are lots of precedents in the history of science. . That their so called model coughs up one believable date, is for me scant evidence, that it is correct, in any other way. IMO the whole theory really has no more fundamental explanatory power, than the story of Genesis (2 different stories actually), or the idea of God or Gods. . Folks are just desperate to avoid lack of closure, the unknown, and the sense of wonder they lost long ago in childhood, when they were shamed for being ignorant, by their parents, older kids, teachers, and preachers; IMO. Tim Leary took enough acid to get over it, and it is said, his favorite saying was: "I don't know". I'm ok with that too.
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redgreenvines
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: yes, I agree to increase the charm do relax.
...however, I would not like to oversimplify the physics theories around the big bang: as Sudly suggests, there are computations that put the event(s) 13.8 billion years ago. ...
. As no one knows what goes on in black holes, although atoms are presumably collapsed, - but are the elementary particles themselves collapsed so that all that remains is a quark soup? . Since there is no answer to such questions, and the supposed singularity from which the big bang began, must have been unimaginably more dense, I doubt there are really any accurate models for either the 'singularity' or the so called 'big bang'. . There is also the ignored problem of where the singularity itself came from, or why it appeared and so on , it really all smacks of the same sort of mythology as religion. . At least religion doesn't pretend to be reasonable. The good side of religion is when they all go to church sing together, have picnics, and donate to charities and do good works; forget their arguments and feel good together. . A bad side of science is when it pollutes minds, with muddled 'thinking', for which unfortunately the are lots of precedents in the history of science. . That their so called model coughs up one believable date, is for me scant evidence, that it is correct, in any other way. IMO the whole theory really has no more fundamental explanatory power, than the story of Genesis (2 different stories actually), or the idea of God or Gods. . Folks are just desperate to avoid lack of closure, the unknown, and the sense of wonder they lost long ago in childhood, when they were shamed for being ignorant, by their parents, older kids, teachers, and preachers; IMO. Tim Leary took enough acid to get over it, and it is said, his favorite saying was: "I don't know". I'm ok with that too.
there is no closure supposed in the big bang theory at all, nor in the mystery of the quark soup of a black hole, these however are two questions about the universe that remain relevant to the universe and to us within it.
this is different than the mythologies to which you are comparing it. those stories have little to no poetic correspondence to reality as we know it.
and yes, reality is real even if we do not understand all of it - it is there, and we are part of it, amazed and mystified, and trying to make sense of what we can with the best tools we can devise.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Maybe I can rephrase it, what evidence is there of reincarnation?
Quote:
laughingdog said:Is a large part of religion guilty of first saying everything must have an explanation, but the only explanation possible is that God made it all because otherwise its too complex to have happened, but then saying God can't be explained -- and doesn't the big bang hypothesis follow the same pattern? And doesn't this pattern run counter to the best efforts of science in general? And isn't it peculiar how eager many are to ignore this?
A lot of religious people do say that god is the explanation behind a variety of phenomena, and that god works in mysterious ways, true.
With BB there is a phenomena that has been observed, that is the expansion of the universe. The BB is one suggestion for why this might be.
It's like dark matter, there's reason to believe it may exist, but that evidence hasn't materialised yet.
But it's like with radios, that took a long time to discover the electromagnetic fields, and one day we might discover more.
Maybe one day we'll solidify the evidence and prove the BB, maybe one day we'll discover the universe is the school project of an omnipotent being.
The BB isn't in anyway a religion, it's an idea of why something might be, and when new evidence arises I'm sure it will adapt to what comes its way, because that's what science does.
Quote:
laughingdog said:Seems many people simply can't handle not knowing, and so latch onto anything that promises them a tidy predictable world, endorsed by some sort of authority. In general humans are not very impressive, which is another aspect of our nature many are uncomfortable with, having been raised by parents with unrealistic expectations. In youth this manifests as the desperate desire to be cool. Then folks become adults and acquire status symbols. Those who go for concepts acquire beliefs, and if they are still more intellectual they acquire academic degrees. Never the less the world remains uncertain and mysterious, which for those who are more relaxed is part of its charm.
One thing I've recognised is that there is a lot of probability in the world, and I'm comfortable in my belief that the probability of the Sun rising the next day is in my favour.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Where's Waldo? [Re: sudly]
#27301117 - 05/09/21 05:17 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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I used to think that expansion of the universe includes all objects and matter within it as well, and that that expanding outward acceleration could explain gravity itself, as matter drags through a medium being pushed away from larger expanding material like the planet pushing the buildings and all the people that stand on it out from its center.
it is a weird thought experiment.
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laughingdog
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. Of course if the elementary particles were themselves expanding the ratio of the space between them, to their own size would remain the same. . If rulers expand at the same rate as what they are measuring there is no way to tell they are both expanding and of course visa versa, if everything shrinks at the same rate. . Therefore everything could be constantly vibrating and we would never know it. Which perhaps calls into question the whole notion of stability, as well as the notion of certainty in general.
. And calls into question what the big bang is supposed to explain or what any "theory of everything" is supposed to explain with certainty. Sort of seems like the idea of relativity in some ways, as well as why Buddha refused to answer the speculative questions about the universe, (especially when the questioners had not solved the problem of personal suffering in their own lives, which was what he claimed to teach).
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redgreenvines
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true!
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BrendanFlock
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So the saying goes..everything is made up of particles waving at each other?
5D..empire state of mind..Lovers (re)unite! 666
4th differentiation as a time cube..cuts the cost of time into a half percent.
All corners are perfectly or imperfectly sharpened
3rd degrees in error? yes with perplexing curves and rare harmonies and melodies..
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Asante
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Re: Where's Waldo? [Re: sudly]
#27302521 - 05/10/21 06:32 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Maybe I can rephrase it, what evidence is there of reincarnation?
Has there been any human ever who wasn't completely dead and gone a century before they were born?
What evidence is there for us NOT emerging from Death into Life?
13.8 billion years ago, quite possibly, the Universe was a billion times hotter and denset than boiling gold, and voila, here we are. And we say: "no one can emerge from death."
Quote:
Do people think they will be left without purpose?
Were they not ˹once˺ a sperm-drop emitted?
Then they became a clinging clot ˹of blood˺,1 then He developed and perfected their form,
producing from it both sexes, male and female.
Is such ˹a Creator˺ unable to bring the dead back to life?
Surah Al-Qiyamah 75:35-40
Is not the Totality of Everything able to give life to the dead, and did it in fact not do so, evidenced by us being here now?
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redgreenvines
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Re: Where's Waldo? [Re: Asante]
#27302640 - 05/10/21 08:36 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Asante, with all due respect, no and no.
but your enthusiasm is contagious, which can be a good thing in an election year
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laughingdog
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Re: Asante
Reincarnation is presumed to be wonderful some how, probably simply because many fear death. But a moments thought shows that: 1) memory is generally rather poor to begin with 2) it deteriorates with age 3) no one who is healthy & happy, wants to spend much time reminiscing 4) photo albums are more fun when shared 5) no one remembers early infancy 6) in infancy the brain is different 6A) it is unmyelinated 6B) it has more possibilities (for learning different languages) and gets 'pruned' later 7) much of life is full of suffering, from the horrible pains of childbirth, teething, diseases, divorce, & loss of loved ones to mention a few of countless forgotten pains 8) much off old age is miserable as a visit to any old age or nursing home will show 9) So no one would really want to remember, or could remember countless lives 10) remembering every meal one had just least week is next to impossible 11) and the taste of every bite totally impossible 12) in old age one looses many former skills and often deteriorates slowly 13) to repeat all these unavoidable unpleasant experiences, in slightly different forms, endlessly would be both pointless, and if one had any awareness of the process a nightmare that would drive one insane.
. So really if one dares to think about it in detail, the idea that reincarnation might be a blessing is naive. In fact reincarnation is considered to be something to be overcome, by future better reincarnations, until the process is permanently transcended, in eastern religion, which originated the concept. . Trust Americans to turn something understood to be negative by those sophisticated enough to have invented the concept, into a Disney Land one can sell tickets to.
Edited by laughingdog (05/10/21 09:48 AM)
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laughingdog
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The implications of #s 9, 10 & 11 above
[....9) So no one would really want to remember, or could remember countless lives 10) remembering every meal one had just least week is next to impossible 11) and the taste of every bite totally impossible ...]
... are that forgetting is a form of constant painless death, and experiencing a form of constant rebirth. If we had to remember vividly the taste of previous meals while eating the present one, we could not enjoy the present one. Or even the taste of the broccoli from the main course while eating a sweet dessert. Constant dying is a necessity. . And memory is identity, So with every forgetting some identity dies. We see this in cases of amnesia, and in coma, where life continues but the self manufactured by memory has been lost.
. Fear of death makes fools of us. We conceptualize death as the opposite of life, begin to cling to life and identity, and fear loss of identity, beliefs, preferences, and death. But all personal growth is based on letting go of outworn beliefs, childish notions, and baggage acquired from parents, teachers & other authorities, emotional hurts and misunderstandings. A healthy identity is flexible, playful, and humorous one. . The inflexible alternative is perhaps best seen when one looks at the artifacts in an Egyptian tomb. Perhaps the ultimate in insecurity, defended by an effort to freeze time, into the seemingly known certainty of the present.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=egyptian+tomb+artifacts&t=hc&va=u&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=egyptian+tomb&t=hc&va=u&iax=images&ia=images
Edited by laughingdog (05/10/21 10:56 AM)
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redgreenvines
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I do not agree with Quote:
5) no one remembers early infancy 6) in infancy the brain is different 6A) it is unmyelinated
Axons in the brain are myelinated enough to allow memory creation before birth, but full white matter myelination is not complete until 2 yrs old - actually not complete until growth is full size - and as far as I can tell, the human brain works most perfectly during infancy - the brain has already been forming memories for months by the time of being born, an event that is assumed to be a traumatic change of existence.
The reason people are not accessing early memories is that the memory content is not meshed with with contexts that we have since become much more familiar. It is not parceled with recognizable events and words are disorganized sounds.
Early memory does have a lot of visual content but most of early memory is proprioceptive and visceral - exploratory: touch and muscle group discovery, hunger, rooting, eating contexts and tooth pain contexts during teething. As social interaction (in the family at first) becomes more established, interest and activity drives the process of memory formation in more formal human ways.
Diaper changes and other infant experience memories would be more accessible if people were less full of themselves, but aspects of those memories are part of memories of dressing, eating, toilet activity, and bathing.
Myelin is all about ensuring that long axons do not lose signal strength or become shorted out (i.e. function as electrical insulation) - Myelin may also be involved in keeping the neurons nourished.
I see no reason to imagine that the brain at birth does not form memories, or to assume it would be normal to remember early memories since they are so contextually different than what we experience now.
bear in mind most of what we sense after infancy is peppered with perception (fragments of memories of similarly sensed events and classes of similar objects and situations) while the infant has little memory to contextualize against, so sensation plays a much greater role in infant consciousness and memory formation than does perception.
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laughingdog
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. Assuming all of what you say about infancy & memory is correct, (which seems a big assumption , considering I know of no one who has ever claimed access to such material, of heard of such memories from others, or seen such a claim, with lots of day to day material, and specific events, in any published material, & especially not with any corroborating evidence); it still does not invalidate the main arguments, I make about the ancient doctrine of reincarnation.
. It is true that Stanislaw Groff and Otto Rank make claims about birth trauma, but in general, no one that I have ever met or heard of, has claimed access to such material. Not even those I've met who did Groff's breathing protocol, or done lots of trips.
. As regards personality, and child development of course there are many major changes, that reorganize identity. Many stages are well documented, so I won't or pretend to give an accurate summary of child personality development. Pre and post puberty is perhaps the most dramatic along with the attitude changes that accompany it. However other major changes in functioning have to do with imagination and fantasy. The idea common among unreflective adults that they have always been, who they feel they are, is as silly as a butterfly having the same notion IMO.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Where's Waldo? [Re: Asante]
#27303368 - 05/10/21 05:54 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: Has there been any human ever who wasn't completely dead and gone a century before they were born?
What evidence is there for us NOT emerging from Death into Life?
13.8 billion years ago, quite possibly, the Universe was a billion times hotter and denset than boiling gold, and voila, here we are. And we say: "no one can emerge from death".
Has anyone not been dead before they were born??
That might grammatically make sense, as in it is a sentence, but if it makes sense? No, not imo.
Not having memories of previous lives is a start.
And don't forget!
 (+5 if you make this your new avatar)
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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babies in the early months definitely learn a lot of things, I have only visited my grandson a few times during covid, but he is definitely aware, responsive, and remembering and leaning into what interests him, just as his mom did more than 35 years ago.
but whether it works as I say it does or not, makes no difference with respect to past lives. if they exist.
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Asante
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Quote:
8) much off old age is miserable as a visit to any old age or nursing home will show
My dad built a boat from plate steel in a field, sailed to Portugal in it with his 20 years younger second wife, eventually sold the boat and now has two properties, including one with olive trees, orange trees, a veggie garden and well, if I send him something in the mail a guy on a donkey delivers it to him, they spend their time going from BBQ party to BBQ party, live music, jolly villagers with their own vinyards..
He's 80 years old and obese.
Old age isnt miserable, not having a plan and being carted off to an old folks home is.
Old folks homes are for the people who failed at life.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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