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OfflineStable Genius
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The Australian Politics Thread * 2
    #27271161 - 03/27/21 02:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Tired of U.S. politics? Don't know your Abe Lincolns from your Lincoln Woods's?

Then this is the thread for you.
Australia, smack bang in the middle of? I dunno, Asia? We've been seen as U.S. puppets since LBJ took hold of the wheel, maybe longer!
But don't let that put you off, lets all kick the can down the road together in the thread devoted to Down Under shitfuckery.
We've stuck our nose in other countries political discussion for far too long, come stick your collective noses in ours to even up the score :super:

I'll kick off the discussion with an address to the National Press Club by former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.
Love him or loathe him, Kevin could talk shit under 6 foot of concrete with a mouthful of marbles.
In this address he takes aim at Rupert Murdoch's nuts time
and time again(I love it), shares his thoughts on China, shares his thoughts on the current Liberal government, basically shares his thoughts in a way that only Kevin can. Kevin is from Queensland... err Queensland, you'll find it on a map.

If you don't like Kevin, feel free to turn the discussion to whatever subject is currently pissing you off or making you smile smugly.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27272228 - 03/27/21 06:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

hmmm, maybe I should have called this thread FREE BEER ! ?
It's one of the few ways to get an Australian's attention... that and football, as they can watch football whilst drinking beer.

How about Andrew Forrest's plan to build a blast furnace in the Pilbara powered by green hydrogen backed with his own money instead of waiting for government to chip in, which will drive jobs, lower emissions and most likely piss China off?
Anyone interested can read about it here or listen to the podcast ( 01 Oil vs Water - Confessions of a carbon emitter ) here

The thing I like about Andrew Forrest is his vision and non reliance on government to get shit done.
If we wait for government to solve the carbon/climate problem we're fucked.

Capitalism ironically may be the thing that saves the planet.

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27273400 - 03/28/21 04:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not sure I'd feel safe living in Australia without a gun .



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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27273967 - 03/29/21 05:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Real men don't need guns... that 'roo was only a baby.

How many did that guy take to go around 18 in? I bet it was well over 100 with a shithouse swing like that... he deserved all that 'roo gave him.

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InvisibleThe Thing
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27273975 - 03/29/21 05:48 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What in the actual fuck? As if you swing a golf club at a joey! What a shit cunt.. probly hits girls too.

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: The Thing] * 1
    #27274021 - 03/29/21 06:46 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Are you just supposed to let a giant humanoid demon rat attack attack you ? There's no shortage of videos of these things  attacking people .  This would be issue number 1 for me if I lived there .


Quote:

Real men don't need guns... that 'roo was only a baby.





  Maybe ,I used to think that before I saw that video ,  Ive always assumed I could beat a baby roo to death with my bare hands but what if your a real woman and an adult demon rat attacks you ?



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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27274032 - 03/29/21 06:58 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Lol... Australians aren't completely stupid, we shoot them too.
I did like that guy's right hook though. POW!

Those big ones are scary for sure. If you get too close and they rock back on their tail, run Forrest run.

Edited by Stable Genius (05/29/21 05:15 PM)

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InvisibleThe Thing
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27275243 - 03/30/21 03:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You think that's scary?



Look what happens when an adult roo gets a hold of a gun!

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: The Thing]
    #27275351 - 03/30/21 06:30 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Oh man, has anyone been watching the investigation into the Luna Park fire?

Without a doubt THE best piece of investigative journalism ever seen in Australia. EVER.

I can't ever recall being so blown away... when the names Abe Saffron and Jack Rooklyn were dropped it was like going back in time... fuck!
When they got to High Court Judge Lionel Murphy followed by ex Premier Neville Wran my jaw was on the carpet.
Everyone knew these people were corrupt but the level of corruption in New South Wales was so deeply rooted they were untouchable..... Fuck!!... FUCK!!!

If those four bastards weren't already dead they'd all be charged with murder.

Caro Meldrum-Hannah and Patrick Begley have researched themselves into journalistic legend.

The shit will hit the fan tomorrow.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27298967 - 05/07/21 04:58 PM (3 years, 12 days ago)

Aus, along with South Africa and India were invited to the G7.
The invitation from Britain was no accident and meant to send a clear signal to China that an alliance of countries are not interested in putting up with the current CCP economic coercion.

They've put a tariff on or found a 'problem' with every one of our exports except iron ore, as it's the one commodity they can't source elsewhere
after Brazil has experienced ongoing problems with their iron ore export.

With the Federal government tearing up Victoria's Belt and Road agreement with the CCP the next agreement/asset in their sights is the Port of Darwin lease to the Chinese company Landbridge.
When the Federal government finally announces they are tearing up that lease, and they will, it is going to be very interesting to see how China retaliates.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27319207 - 05/22/21 07:59 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27328217 - 05/29/21 05:15 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Ex Labour Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has his own YouTube channel whoohoo! and he still has The Murdoch machine firmly in his sights.

Every time they try and attack K Rudd, and they simply cannot help themselves from doing so, they only give his cause more air... dumb arses.
Peta Credlin got sucked into the bunfight and had to offer Kevin a public apology over her bullshit comments... I love it. Go Kevin!

If you detest Sky "News?" Aus as much as I do check out his 'Murdoch Watch' videos, they're K Rudd gold.

https://www.youtube.com/c/KevinRudd/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=0

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27434767 - 08/19/21 03:47 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Jordan Shanks, if you haven't seen any of his Friendly Jordies YouTube content check him out.

He takes aim at all most of a lot of the same dead-shits that give me the irrates, including Sky News, John Barilaro, Gladys etc.
His response to Sky News' hatchet job on Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull, whilst sitting in Kevin Rudds lounge room hanging shit on Chris Kenny at every opportunity has received more views than Sky News' own article.... ouch! Chris Kenny.

His scathing and totally warranted attacks on John Barrilaro are gold and he backs up his statements with facts.

So pissed was Barilaro he got his buddies in the 'Fixated Person's Unit' (set up to deal with terrorists) to arrest Friendly Jordies producer Kristo Langker last month.

Here's hoping they kick Barilaros lawyer in the nuts, verbally speaking of course, whoops they already have.

If you're tired of the usual news media delivery have a look, and if you feel like helping Kristo with his legal fight you can do that too :super:

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Offlineviktor
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27441998 - 08/25/21 06:56 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Have you ever seen Choomer Island 2?


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: viktor]
    #27442059 - 08/25/21 08:02 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Yep

Edited by Stable Genius (08/27/21 02:55 PM)

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27466520 - 09/13/21 07:23 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Friendly Jordies keeps nailing the scumbags. Legend.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27469115 - 09/15/21 09:08 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Drink driving, to some it's against the law, in Australia it's a national sport.
The top comment in the YouTube comment section
Quote:

I can never tell if this country is 50 years behind everyone else or 100 years in the future





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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27470127 - 09/16/21 03:01 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Let's can the 90 billion dollar French diesel electric submarine program and buy American nuclear submarines we don't even have the engineers to maintain!

Aussie Aussie Aussie, What Tha Fluk!


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27470699 - 09/16/21 02:21 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Mmmmm I think if we're going to spend 90 billion it's probably a good idea to buy the best technology, which nuclear powered subs are.

It also strengthens Asia Pacific security, despite what China is saying.

And lets face it, this deal is all about sending a huge FUCK YOU message to China.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27470816 - 09/16/21 04:07 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Mmmmm I think if we're going to spend 90 billion it's probably a good idea to buy the best technology, which nuclear powered subs are.




Only if you need to project power across oceans. Nuclear submarines are significantly inferior to diesel-electrics in littoral waters.

The only benefits of nuclear submarines are (a) no need to refuel, making voyages limited by food capacity, and (b) able to stay underwater for longer than a week at a time.

The main drawback of a nuclear submarine is that you cannot shut down a nuclear reactor, which will always generate noise. Considering that the entire point of a submarine is to be quiet, that's a pretty big drawback.

If you're operating in coastal waters, a diesel-electric sub is quieter than a nuclear sub, and refueling/surfacing routinely is not a problem.

So yes, this is a big FUCK YOU to China. Specifically, Australia is threatening the ability to project offensive submarine power, instead of focusing on defense.

EDIT: Not to mention, size. Nuclear submarines are, generally speaking, much bigger and much less agile than diesel-electrics.

Edited by Kryptos (09/16/21 04:14 PM)

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27470994 - 09/16/21 07:24 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Mmmmm I think if we're going to spend 90 billion it's probably a good idea to buy the best technology, which nuclear powered subs are.

It also strengthens Asia Pacific security, despite what China is saying.

And lets face it, this deal is all about sending a huge FUCK YOU message to China.




2.5 billion just got wasted on design costs and the overall cost of the nuclear program is yet to be announced.

If we're going to spend 90 billion we could use it to help the people instead of the military industrial complex and invest in part or full dental and tuition coverage included in Medicare. Full coverage for dental would cost an estimate range from $6.7 billion to $11 billion a year.

I'm not for full coverage of tuition or dental, just a set amount to help cover the basics.

E.g. 10,000 towards tuition one time, and 1000 a year for dental.

I haven't heard any partial funding suggestions but I think it meets a good middle ground of cost and benefit.

Some people require 250,000 for tuition ,  some 20,000. Some people need 15000 for dental, some 300.

Security is the governments excuse for screwing over the people and feeding the military industrial complex exactly what it pays our politicians for.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27470996 - 09/16/21 07:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

What do you think of a bill for campaign finance reform to make it so that large corporations can't make politicians beholden to them with large donations and shadowy quid pro quo arrangements.

1000 days since they said they'd have an ICC, and nothing but corruption since.

Pork barreling etc.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27471108 - 09/16/21 09:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Oh for sure I fully appreciate your point about the cost, it's staggering, especially after all the political bullshit we've had to endure with covid :thumbup: And let's not forget that's just submarines we're talking about. I've worked on a couple of different bases over the years and the wasted money is just eye watering.

Campaign Finance reform, yeah, I think we have something like that in place at the moment don't 'we' = Aus?... and it's not working, at any level.

Did you check out the Friendly Jordies video I posted earlier... New South Wales has well and truly stolen the crown for the most corrupt state.

Both sides are a fucking joke, from Labor and that sack of shit Obeid to the Liberal's nation saving :puke: heroine Gladys and her scumbag ex boyfriend Daryl Maguire.
How that woman has kept her job is beyond me  :puke: 

Corrupt pieces of shit like this are part of the reason that fish and chip shop dumb-dumb's like Pauline Hanson have so much appeal... even though she hasn't a clue on how to articulate any decent policy.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27471121 - 09/16/21 09:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So yes, this is a big FUCK YOU to China. Specifically, Australia is threatening the ability to project offensive submarine power, instead of focusing on defense.





There was an ex submariner talking on Radio National yesterday and he laid out the case for nuclear subs quite well, but I'll look further into what you're saying :thumbup:

If we're realistic about Australia's capability to defend itself we haven't the resources. We get a broader range of advantages by spending a shit tonne of money with the U.S. than just sub technology.

Aus already has reasonable partnerships with many of the asian countries in our part of the world, Singapore trains their helicoptor pilots at one of our bases. We conduct training exercises with Malaysia and Indonesia, the U.S. comes here all the time for training exercises.... New Zealand joins in occasionally with some toy guns :lol:
This is how we defend ourselves, with alliances.

Remember all those shitty wars we jumped into with the U.S., we didn't do it for nothing.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27471224 - 09/17/21 02:03 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

There's also that the first submarines won't be operational before 20 years if everything goes well and there aren't delays that add more.

And I heard today that by 2050 technology likely will have advanced making the submarines more or less obsolete.

If it's for protection or security, something that takes 20 years to do anything and by then will be less effective is a strange thing indeed.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27471318 - 09/17/21 05:11 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Hmmm good point.
Like it only took 26 years to get the Collins-class subs functional... so actually 20 years would be an improvement. That's some serious lol

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27471331 - 09/17/21 05:29 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Australia doesn't have nuclear weapons, probably because they figured the U.S. would be there to bail them out, which probably isn't going to happen. Given geopolitical reality, they will come under China's sphere of influence. I don't think China wants to take them over, like Hong Kong and Taiwan, but Australia will have to make some serious accomodations. I'm thinking something like Finland during the Soviet reign.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27471846 - 09/17/21 03:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

... so giving up some of our territory? That's a big call Mr Jones.

However it's something a lot of institutions here have examined over the last 10-20 years and the analysis has always come up with that scenario being unlikely, even after the current announcement.

We have barely enough water to look after the current population and there's really only 1 commodity that China doesn't have - iron ore.

This is the new cold war and China have played their part by applying tariffs to every item of value we export to them, except iron ore. We've responding by doing zero, unless we count the government voicing their opinion on various matters as a serious response.
What it has done is forced our exporters to examine other markets. India is one, the EU is another of significance.

The hypocrisy coming out of China atm with their bleating that this submarine announcement is somehow threatening regional security, after they have built military bases on coral reefs in disputed waters, is laughable.

* Just heard that the French have recalled their ambassador's in both Australia and the U.S. and to be honest I don't blame them. Our Prime Minister is a slimey bastard, it doesn't surprise me he has said one thing and done another.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27472041 - 09/17/21 05:49 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

I'm not for full coverage of tuition or dental, just a set amount to help cover the basics.

E.g. 10,000 towards tuition one time, and 1000 a year for dental.

I haven't heard any partial funding suggestions but I think it meets a good middle ground of cost and benefit.

Some people require 250,000 for tuition ,  some 20,000. Some people need 15000 for dental, some 300.





I like the idea of making people contribute a % of their own cash towards services. It gets around the problem we had with 'career students' when we had free university under Gough Whitlam.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27472220 - 09/17/21 08:58 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

What's wrong with being a career student?

There's this idea in modern times that everybody must work, and it's a goddamn stupid idea. Not everybody has to work, and if anything, most people do not have to work. And sure, there's a fairness argument, but as someone who is more capable than most, I don't mind doing a bit more. If somebody wants to spend their life fucking off and getting 60 degrees, that's fine by me. I don;t mind paying for them to get those 60 degrees either, as long as they're at least interesting, and living on what they need, not what they want.

For one thing, earning 60 degrees is actually pretty hard. As someone who is more capable than most, I still struggle with some stuff others consider basic. I've tried coding several times, and apart from some runescape bots and automated excel spreadsheets, I can't seem to get the hang of it. Like, I can't full stack an entire project, even having devoted some significant time to it. I've tried, it just doesn't work.

We live in a world where a dozen people earn millions of dollars per hour.

WARNING: US NUMBERS INCOMING, CONVERT AS NEEDED

That's what I'm fucking pissed about. I don't give a fuck about a professional student, who maybe costs 75k per year their entire life. 25k for a year schooling at a decent state school, 1.2k/month=14.5k/yr housing, 35k left over on life, but as a professional student, you're studying, not living. Assuming this pro student lives to 65, that's about 6.5 mil. For an entire lifetime. The average person ears something around 2-3 mil, and that's with a minimum wage that has fallen to roughly 1/4th the real value it had 50 years ago. Bezos makes approximately 50 of those 6.5 mil lifetimes per day. Imagine making the entire value of 50 pampered, or (2 mil assuming average lifeitme wage 50k and 40 working years) 160 regular lifetimes per day. Is anybody worth 160 lives per day?

Two things are true, to me: the numbers are nowhere near reality, and some US dollars are literally worth more than other US dollars, and so economically speaking, the money held by some poor dude is literally worth more than money that exists as Jeff Bezos' stock investment.

The second thing, is since the actual numbers behind the money are entirely fictional, is that we still have an arbitrary nobility that rules above us, and we are not them. You ever watch a TV show like game of thrones, and realize that you're one of the random faceless extras charging into battle in the background while the main characters talk. And yeah, you might be good at what you do, but then instead of the credits saying "extras provided by local acting school", you're "dead elite soldier #3", because that's what a redshirt is. You're really good at what you do, and well respected, but you're not part of their club. You're not ever Grey Worm/ Melisande. You're the elite soldier next to Grey Worm that catches a fucking spear in the face in 4k for that money shot.

Whether you're one of those people is luck.

So can society truly afford to send many people to college for their entire life? I do not think so.

On the other hand, there is value in giving some odd individual that much power to shape history. And life is chance. Sometimes it's a good bet, sometimes it is not. Time will decide. Sometimes you're the guy that sails around the world and comes back with limit-breaking knowledge. Sometimes, you die and your crew finishes the voyage, but you get credit anyway. Is it better to be the guy that dies, or is it better to be the random fucking sailor that survives but nobody knows about? Or is it better to be a king, or better yet, the guy who's name the word "king" comes from?

And that's what we do to those people. Old money. They can go to college for their entire lives. Or they can fuck off on tiktok. Lambos on instagram.

We went through an age of agriculture, and the farm owners ran the world. We went through an age of industrialization, and the industrialists ran the world. We went through an age of science, and the scientists ran the world. Now we're going through the age of socialization, and social media runs the world.

The thing is, the racists are right. Racism is, to an extent, natural. But it is also not longer necessary. It's natural selection. That part of the genome is slowly being removed. We are being force-fed tolerance and social justice, just like conservatives fear, because that is a side effect of the ability to communicate with people across the world.

The fact that we can interact is fucking insane. Just, assuming you're not in the same zipcode as me, not even considering the possibility of different continents. Not even from a travel standpoint, because travel is an ordeal. But from an "I'm bored, let's type out a quick Friday Night Vaguely Political Ramble Rant" perspective.

There is going to be some culture clash right there. You probably got annoyed that I'm talking from a US perspective, to some extent. I know I have annoyed posters in the past with my US-centric worldview, and that's why I never really engaged much with this thread earlier, because I didn't want to impose my will upon something that I, frankly, do not know much about.

But the problem is, every time you go through one of these ages, some people don't make the cut. The racists aren't gonna make the cut, and they're throwing a tantrum about it. And if the wrong decisions are made, more people don't make the cut. Humanity will survive climate change, and you certainly will not. You don;t really get a choice in the matter. Ultimately, nobody does, but you get less choice in the matter than a billionaire. That's what wealth is. The ability to shape the future.

The question though, is not about money. There's a total output of humanity, and it can be steered in different directions. The question is how many people get to choose the direction. Under the conservative republican right wing authoritarian whatever fewer people get to make those decisions, leading to sharper turns in the direction of humanity. Under the left wing liberal democrats labour labor worker's whatever, more people get to make those decisions, leading to slower changes in trajectory.

You're not one of the people that make those decisions. If you were, you would not be here. There will always be elites and commoners. Patricians and Plebeians. Kings and nobles and serfs. Super Billionaires like Bezos, and little billionaires like Jay-Z. Super millionaires with 9 figures, successful millionaires with 8, regular millionaires with 7... We've just stratified society out into 12-13 ranks, instead of the 10 we had before. Or the 7 we had before. Or whatever. Kings, nobles, knights, merchants, serfs. 5 ranks. Log base: 100,000,000,000 Rank 12 super billions. Rank 10 regular billions. Rank 9 mega millions (hey, isn't that a lottery?). Rank 8 MAN I'm Good millionaires, Rank 7 Coulda done worse millionaires. Then come the hundredaires. Rank 6 I'm alrights. Rank 5 Uff-das. Rank 4 through 1 is basically animals. Homeless, and the like.

I guess that's only like, 8-9 ranks. I'm literally too lazy to scroll up and count.

Either way, humanity is becoming properly socialized. Racism will not exist in a generation or two, because either we will learn to work together, or we will cause enough people to die to force us to work together. And then the next generation will face the next funnel event. It'll probably take 3-5 generations, honestly. This cycle is getting bigger and slowing down. Humanity will be fine, though. We might no longer be recognizably human, but our descendants will make it to the stars, even if it takes the sun eating the earth.

Just kinda sucks being alive during the squeeze, eh?

Edited by Kryptos (09/17/21 09:08 PM)

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27472301 - 09/17/21 10:10 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Can you like tldr?


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27472452 - 09/18/21 12:21 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:

What's wrong with being a career student?

I don;t mind paying for them to get those 60 degrees either,

I don't give a fuck about a professional student,

So can society truly afford to send many people to college for their entire life? I do not think so.

On the other hand, there is value in giving some odd individual that much power to shape history.





Ummm I think he's totally against the idea whilst at the same time being totally for it. And that's fucking cool man :crankey: because this is a mushroom site and if you've ever tripped hard this makes total sense :thumbup:


Quote:

Kryptos said:
You probably get annoyed that I'm talking from a US perspective, to some extent. I know I have annoyed posters in the past with my US-centric worldview, and that's why I never really engaged much with this thread earlier, because I didn't want to impose my will upon something that I, frankly, do not know much about.




I like you posting in this thread, I was lonely in here. I was so lonely I was talked into talking about kangaroos earlier.
This is much better, even though I have no idea what your point was it's ok as I have no idea wtf is going on in Australia half the time anyway :hatsoff:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27473071 - 09/18/21 02:21 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

TL;DR I had a fun Friday.

And like the majority of my crapulent rants, I stand by what I said. It's a lot less inconsistent that it first appears.

It all comes down to logarithmic money. Either society can afford to send everyone to college for 60 years, or 100$+100$=/=200$. Which I kind of alluded to, in the sense that a million people that each have a dollar in their pocket collectively have more money than a single guy with a million dollars in their pocket.

Edit: Mathematically, it does not make sense, but money isn't real. Money is an abstraction, a substitute, for value. It doesn't have to follow the rules of reality.

Edited by Kryptos (09/18/21 02:29 PM)

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27473272 - 09/18/21 05:28 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

There's also the struggle of actually convincing people to take up your opinions and a lot of people shut out or shutdown things like paid tuition that older folk got.

If we do nothing we're lucky to get crumbs. Sometimes a bite is better, and in the corrupt and fd up systems we have, a bite is a damn good start.

And even then, there are personal choices and if you go into a field that leaves you with 200,000 in debt, to try and make 200,000k a year, you've made that choice and I think you should get the same basic assistant as all the other people who took a less balsy option, or didn't put down as large a gamble.

Society can technically afford all kinds of shit, but realistically a lot won't pass.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27473366 - 09/18/21 07:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The question though, is not about money. There's a total output of humanity, and it can be steered in different directions. The question is how many people get to choose the direction. Under the conservative republican right wing authoritarian whatever fewer people get to make those decisions, leading to sharper turns in the direction of humanity. Under the left wing liberal democrats labour labor worker's whatever, more people get to make those decisions, leading to slower changes in trajectory.




Do we want more people to have smaller individual input, or do we want fewer people to be empowered to make bigger changes?

This is fundamentally the question of welfare. And power. And everything else.

Like if Plinko. You run into a bunch of little pegs, and you either come out ahead or behind. Most people end up somewhere in the middle. About average. A few people fall far behind, a few people end up way ahead.

Now on that final distribution, we can put a few lines. Everyone below a certain line loses their humanity, on a societal level. Homeless and such. There are other lines as well. Lines that allow people to make more and more decisions.

We only decide where we get to put those lines. Do we let only one guy, the guy that hit all the pegs a certain way, to do everything? Or do we take the top 10 guys? Top 100? Top 1000? The more people make decisions, the slower those decisions are made. But the less likely we make a stupid mistake.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27473384 - 09/18/21 07:24 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Money is still always in the question whether you like it or not.

The question is not how many people get to choose the direction, that is democracy. The question is whether those who were put in place to lead and listen to the will of the majority will do so.

Like in QLD, 80% of the public were for the right to end of life bill and it still went to a conscience vote, democracy was superseded and left at the personal whims of a handful of people.

Quote:

Do we want more people to have smaller individual input, or do we want fewer people to be empowered to make bigger changes?




We want equal opportunities, and what does it mean to have more people having less input?

How does that factor in, or why would someone have less input?

Everyone together is empowered to make bigger decisions, but again it depends on if those elected to listen to those decisions actually do so.

You give everyone a starting chance and some use that equal opportunity to make more of themselves or more for themselves.

We don't decide where we put the plinko lines, we're given a chance and we put in effort to reach them, unfortunately in your plinko analogy luck seems to be the majority factor. At least, in real life you're given a starting opportunity and you work your way up the line.

We the people use democracy and the leaders we have to represent us, they are supposed to represent us but they often don't because they take quid pro quo arrangements through veiled political donations from large interest groups.

There's a system of representatives from local to federal and when they're voted in as a representative, their job is to do that. A lot don't and we know that.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27473596 - 09/18/21 10:12 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Money, power, government, etc. are all abstractions by which we pick those that make decisions for everyone. Sure, you vote democratically, but you're only voting to pick someone else to make those decisions.

The only choice is how many such people we pick. Few, or many? The more people we pick to lead, the longer they will deliberate and the fewer people we pick to lead, the faster decisions get made.

And yes, life is decided by chance. We keep telling ourselves that we have control, that we can work for something better, but that is not true. Life is decided primarily by luck, and under capitalism, the line that defines survival moves ever higher. Because we gave control to the few rich people that decide the fate of society.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27473643 - 09/18/21 10:42 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

You are voting for someone to read the polls of the public and to represent a democratic will.

A million or one, they have a job to do and making them do it comes first.

The responsibility to represent the democratic vote is what matters.

All I'm for is an equal opportunity, a good starting position for everyone to get themselves a foot up in life to be able to contribute more in the future.

We did not give control to the rich people per say, they propagandised the public through a set Overton window that the media represents (e.g. lower tax for rich, more spending for military), to lead the public to vote for people who called themselves representatives of the public then failed in being a representative of the public because lobbyists lobbied them not to.



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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27473666 - 09/18/21 11:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Whoooo! Morning Joe telling it like it is! Unbelievable. Good posting sir :hatsoff:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27473746 - 09/19/21 12:01 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Again, it doesn't really matter if someone is voted in, bought, whatever.

One group makes decisions, the other group does not. You are in the group that does not make decisions.

I should clarify: decisions that actually matter. Decisions that shape the course of humanity. You can decide between candidate A or candidate B, and you can decide whether you have eggs or oatmeal for breakfast. Those decisions don't matter.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27473769 - 09/19/21 12:43 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

That's the whole problem, that elected representatives represent their lobbyists, and not the public that voted them in to that position.

If anyone can defend the fact that apple does not pay taxes, they themselves are willingly or otherwise a propagandist.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27473899 - 09/19/21 04:33 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

At the risk of getting a verbal egging I really liked Malcolm Turnbull... wait wait hear me out.
Malcolm was in charge of the worst bunch of right wing shitheads yet he still

* tried his best with that collective bunch of conservative retards to do something about climate change
* championed gay marriage equality
* understood the best way to deliver a realistic NBN network that worked
* pushed the case for an Australian Republic which would have delivered a Bill of Rights

Not bad for a millionaire from Point Piper, he could have run as a Labor Party candidate with some of the policies he put forward, they were policies for the people.

I like Malcolm.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27474063 - 09/19/21 08:19 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Could you give me a short summary on the submarine deal. I've been superbusy with work and school, and haven't made it beyond headlines.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27474114 - 09/19/21 08:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
You are voting for someone to read the polls of the public and to represent a democratic will.

A million or one, they have a job to do and making them do it comes first.

The responsibility to represent the democratic vote is what matters. I

All I'm for is an equal opportunity, a good starting position for everyone to get themselves a foot up in life to be able to contribute more in the future.

We did not give control to the rich people per say, they propagandised the public through a set Overton window that the media represents (e.g. lower tax for rich, more spending for military), to lead the public to vote for people who called themselves representatives of the public then failed in being a representative of the public because lobbyists lobbied them not to.






I wouldn't say Joe went full socialist, but he gave a rather good performance for a postion at about Bernie Sanders level of socialism and Bernie only has about 10 or less collegues who will vote with him on this stuuf, some more who might vote for specifis issues and bunch of liberal dems who say these are important issies and then don't vote that way. It's a step. A lot of younger poeple are expousing prosocialism attitudes and they need all the help they can get in feeling these views are normal and worth working for. I frequently give up, but then some people stick their neck out, evergize the left and I have some moments of faith. Unfortunately these moments have been brief. Joe's not perfect, he has some baggage (but not that murder conspiracy theory whih is rubbish. If he wants to join the progressives full time he should be welcomed, but it will take longer to asses his committment level and motives.

Hey since the Australian politic thread is the only one currently on the forum that is active other than covid, so I appreciate you guys braching out to U.S story till  we see if the forum makes a comeback. And I will make an effort to learn more Australian politics,


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #27474329 - 09/19/21 11:46 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Could you give me a short summary on the submarine deal. I've been superbusy with work and school, and haven't made it beyond headlines.


basically France an Australia had  a deal for a new submarine to be built. an insted America an Australia cut a deal for America to build a nuclear sub for Australia  behind france back an they are not happy since france is an allies.


Watch "Nuclear submarines for Australia just started a new Pacific military alliance against China!" on YouTube

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27474391 - 09/19/21 12:26 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
That's the whole problem, that elected representatives represent their lobbyists, and not the public that voted them in to that position.

If anyone can defend the fact that apple does not pay taxes, they themselves are willingly or otherwise a propagandist.





That's my point. That is not the problem. That is simply a method by which humanity picks ambassadors. You seemingly disagree with the idea that the wealthiest should decide the course of humanity. The wealthy disagree with you. Since the wealthy make decisions and you do not, the wealthy continue to shape the future.

To me the problem is that we pick a small group of champions and empower them to shape the future. I think we should pick a bigger group of people to make decisions. Of course, that means decisions get made more slowly, and things are more boring.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27474476 - 09/19/21 01:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Could you give me a short summary on the submarine deal. I've been superbusy with work and school, and haven't made it beyond headlines.




That video that Mach z 800 posted is a good one and definitely worth watching.

Here's a couple of interesting sidelines to the main story.

I don't know if you recall Prime Minister Scott Morrison having a face to face with Biden at the G7 earlier this year and suddenly Boris Jonhson crashes the party and people at the time were like wtf is Boris up to?... :awesomenod:

Also, it appears Morrison waited until Trump was gone and purposely never discussed this with orange man even though secret discussions were taking place for the last 18 months. lol FU Donald

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/16/diplomacy-dialled-up-to-11-australia-saddles-up-with-us-as-indo-pacific-heads-for-cold-war

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27474493 - 09/19/21 01:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

sudly said:
That's the whole problem, that elected representatives represent their lobbyists, and not the public that voted them in to that position.





That's my point. That is not the problem. That is simply a method by which humanity picks ambassadors. You seemingly disagree with the idea that the wealthiest should decide the course of humanity. The wealthy disagree with you. Since the wealthy make decisions and you do not, the wealthy continue to shape the future.




:awkwardconfusion:

Isn't that EXACTLY what sudly is talking about?

Wait wait I'll answer for you...... "Of course not, insert roundabout response"

The lobbyists are paid for by the rich, there is no difference, they're errand boys sent by grocery clerks to collect a bill. That one was for you Brian :super:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27474563 - 09/19/21 02:35 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I'm trying to figure out the proper way to phrase what I mean.

I mean, I could just say "you're thinking too narrowly, think bigger", but that's not very illuminating.

The problem, the way I saw it on Friday, is the overall number of people in charge. I think we need more of them.

How those people are picked does not really matter. Maybe they're picked by voting, maybe they're picked by having more money, maybe they're picked because a dude in a fancy hat claiming to speak for God said so. The problem is the overall number of decision makers.

The people that are in the club that makes decisions have a vested interest in shrinking that club, because then each of their decisions carries greater weight. I think the club should be bigger, explicitly to dilute the power of each individual decision, which prevents giving the wrong person too much power.

sudly (and I guess you, perhaps), seem to just be pissed that even if we vote, the decision club is secretly being picked by money. At least, that's the way I see it based on this thread. I don't see that as the core problem. Across the world, the decision club seems to be shrinking. Of course, that is a very US-centric perspective, because we keep delegating power to the president. My opinion that the decision club seems to be shrinking is heavily tilted by that perspective, so I may be wrong about the rest of the world. But I don't think I am.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27474619 - 09/19/21 03:15 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think it's as conspiratorial as you're suggesting.

For example the mining tax that Labor put in place to try and put some money back into Australian coffers from the big iron ore and coal miners was sunk by concerted efforts by lobby groups like the ones I've listed below.

There are others. Prominent figures like Clive Palmer and Gina Rheinhart are also responsible for ripping us off.

https://www.cmewa.com.au/about/us/

https://www.minerals.org.au/about-mca

These lobbyists in step with their donors scare-mongered the Australian public and the government into believing they would stop producing.

The mining industry effectively blackmailed the country into scrapping a 30% levy on their profits.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27475138 - 09/20/21 02:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds like you've fallen for the old, billionaires work 1000x more than their workers. Instead of wage exploitation and a business model that once produced, makes it's own money.. 

Having more corrupt politicians wouldn't help, being corrupt is the problem I'm pointing out.

The 'decision club' is a quid pro quo arrangement, and yes, I would like that to stop.

You're fine with legalised bribery, and I am not.

At least you're open about it. :shrug:


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27475371 - 09/20/21 08:54 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Could you give me a short summary on the submarine deal. I've been superbusy with work and school, and haven't made it beyond headlines.




That video that Mach z 800 posted is a good one and definitely worth watching.

Here's a couple of interesting sidelines to the main story.

I don't know if you recall Prime Minister Scott Morrison having a face to face with Biden at the G7 earlier this year and suddenly Boris Jonhson crashes the party and people at the time were like wtf is Boris up to?... :awesomenod:

Also, it appears Morrison waited until Trump was gone and purposely never discussed this with orange man even though secret discussions were taking place for the last 18 months. lol FU Donald

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/16/diplomacy-dialled-up-to-11-australia-saddles-up-with-us-as-indo-pacific-heads-for-cold-war




That's not surprising. The top brass of the U.S. military also quit bothering to talk to Trump and had discussions behing his back, even with the General Secretary of the CCP.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27475469 - 09/20/21 10:21 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, I understand that rich people bribing public officials is a bad thing. Congratulations on that discovery.

Rich people have always bribed people, and will always continue to bribe people. Corruption cannot be removed from the system because corruption is inherent to the function of the system. Any system, really.

The only way to stop that is by making the price of corruption too high--this means having more people in charge. At a certain point, bribes become more expensive than the payoff, and the more people that must be bribed, the more likely that is to happen.

Adding more people to the decision club also stops the problems associated with voting in corrupt people.

Stopping corruption is like stopping the sun from rising. You won't be able to accomplish it.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27475508 - 09/20/21 10:50 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

In China I think they shoot people or imprison them for life for major corruption. I'm sure they're very selective about who gets charged.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27475585 - 09/20/21 11:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Depends on the type of corruption. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that pro government corruption is perfectly fine, and even encouraged.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27475936 - 09/20/21 03:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Rich people being legally allowed to bribe politicians specifically is the issue.

You may not be able to remove %100 percent of corruption by removing the legality of bribing politicians, but it's a damn good start.

Right now criminalizing financial corruption would be the only thing that made the price of corruption too high, because currently you can donate 50k and get millions in contracts, thousands of percent profits on your investments.

Quote:

Fewer than two years and after tens of millions of dollars spent on lobbying, political donations, and lawsuits aimed at bullying its critics, Exxon has executed what could amount to a staggering reversal of its political and financial fortunes. For the company, the 2016 presidential election was the inflection point. Instead of fighting to survive in a carbon-constrained world in which many of its oil and gas reserves were at risk of being stranded, Exxon now has the opportunity to build a policy environment of largely unrestricted greenhouse gas pollution that facilitates the expansion of fossil fuel production and consumption for decades to come. Investors in the U.S. stock market seem to understand the financial implications of the election for Exxon: Between November 8 and December 31, 2016, the company’s share price rose 7 percent, amounting to a $21 billion increase in the market value of the company in fewer than two months.

The financial benefits of the 2016 election for Exxon—which will be attained and compounded by the unprecedented corporate power the company is building inside the Trump administration—are difficult to measure at this point but nearly impossible to overstate. This column identifies seven major financial payouts that could flow to Exxon during the Trump administration, assisted by five Trump Cabinet nominees: former Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson for secretary of state; Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt (R) for Environmental Protection Agency administrator; Rep. Ryan Zinke (R-MT) for secretary of the Interior; former Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R) for secretary of energy; and Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) for attorney general. Each of these nominees has either been employed by Exxon or received massive financial contributions from it. All told, these potential benefits could amount to at least $1 trillion for Exxon over the coming years.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/green/news/2017/01/10/296277/how-exxon-won-the-2016-election/





More people in power could mean more potential for corruption..

How about the idea of just reducing corruption by not allowing legalised bribery of politicians.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27476145 - 09/20/21 07:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Because if not allowing legalized bribery was possible, it would have been accomplished.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27476190 - 09/20/21 07:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

It hasn't been attacked at the root by those in power because they suckle from its effect.

Australia follows the US like a lapdog, or at the very least, what happens in the US can influence Australian decisions.

And a new amendment to overturn the likes of citizens United is a good effort imo.

Quote:

Wolf-PAC argues that Congress is too corrupted by big money and special interests to adequately address campaign finance reform, citing sources ranging from personal experience to a well known Princeton study. 

The organization works nationwide with state legislators using the state initiated convention procedure in Article V of the Constitution to propose an amendment to fix the influence that big money and special interests have over the American government. Wolf-PAC asserts that applying for a convention will either directly result in the desired amendment or pressure Congress to act.

The catalyst behind much of the modern campaign finance reform effort is Citizens United v. FEC, which overturned the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act (BCRA) of 2003, commonly known as McCain-Feingold. Uygur, though, says he was motivated principally by the major precedents that lead to Citizens United, like Buckley v. Valeo (1976), which equated campaign spending with free speech and First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti (1978), which allowed independent expenditures by corporations to influence elections. 

Wolf-PAC has also cited subsequent cases as further demonstrating the need for a Constitutional Amendment, such as American Tradition Partnership, Inc. v. Bullock (2012) and McCutcheon v. FEC (2015).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf-PAC





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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27476244 - 09/20/21 08:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
It hasn't been attacked at the root by those in power because they suckle from its effect.




So, your proposition is to convince the people in power to attack their own primary method of enrichment at the root?

Good luck with that.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27476279 - 09/20/21 09:20 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

5 states have passed it and 24 have introduced it for consideration

Build a grass roots movement and pressure each state to sign on, and no it's not easy, god damned no where near, but it's that or suck it up, never try and never complain.

What makes you think that just putting more people in politics will make for less corruption?

Maybe if everyone new gets a litmus test not to take political donations from large corporations it'd work.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27476813 - 09/21/21 10:28 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not trying to solve corruption, because I consider corruption to be unsolvable. It's just not going to happen.

I'm trying to dilute the decision making of each individual that makes decisions. It has nothing to do with corruption.

And again, I consider money, fame, and votes to be interchangeable.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27477304 - 09/21/21 06:17 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Campaign finance reforms about it really.

Depends whose in power when you make more officials right? Still not sure how more people really changes anything but seems like the kind of thing of side would use to stack the odds in their favour.

It's a new idea at least:thumbup:


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27477329 - 09/21/21 06:25 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Campaign finance reform only fixes one sort of corruption, i.e. that of money. There are other forms of corruption. Favors, paid dinners, sex, guns, drugs, etc. You cannot stop all corruption. Who was that one Russian NRA chick? Marina Butira or something? That's a possible form of corruption, which is essentially untraceable: customized significant others. This is why corruption cannot be stopped. It operates by basic biological impulses. The only way to stop corruption would be for officeholders to stop being biological humans.

More people dilutes the power of each individual. Since corruption requires the corruption of individuals, this dilutes the power of corruption. Ideally, you'd have so many people making decisions that it is not profitable to corrupt enough of them to matter, but this is impossible.

Next best thing is having a massive group to make corruption less profitable.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27478352 - 09/22/21 02:28 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Favours for money, e.g. quid pro quo is a big one.

Paid dinners for access is horrible too.

Drugs sex and weapons you don't hear as much about in Aus and US but I'm sure it has some influence.

In Cartel areas it may play more of a role.

But like weapons in the US goes to political donations too, because lobbyists for the military industrial complex pay politicians to keep wars going and contracts flowing.

And drugs, take price gouging for example, the US government at least won't change drug price laws because again pharmaceutical lobbyists lobby them not to change the pricing laws, plus there was the whole opiod issue that companies keep getting sued billions for.

At least Australia doesn't have the price gouging issue and Medicare is decent for the moment, but with the betrayal France feels and NATO is seeing from Australia, it's hard to trust Aus pollies for sure.

They told France the morning of that the submarine deal was fine and could go to the next phase before letting them know in the afternoon it was changed!

Less dark money and more transparency wouldn't stop corruption but would increase public pressure.

Often the culture of a company or corporation leads to the decisions that result in corruption so more people equals less corruption.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27478586 - 09/22/21 06:01 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Byrain]
    #27478684 - 09/22/21 07:16 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Yep, is not a good idea to gather in big groups to protest a lockdown caused by doing things like gathering in big groups.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27478694 - 09/22/21 07:20 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Another super spreader event cool.
If only that damn virus would mutate a little faster.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27478754 - 09/22/21 08:28 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Yep, is not a good idea to gather in big groups to protest a lockdown caused by doing things like gathering in big groups.




I don't see how shooting them will make it better. This will only create further distrust.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Another super spreader event cool.
If only that damn virus would mutate a little faster.




How about blowdarts? Just load up some vaccine into blowguns and take them down like wild game?

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Byrain]
    #27479035 - 09/23/21 04:16 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

When you start pissing on a ww2 monument things tend to get a lil heated.

I'm not happy the police decided to use force, and I'm not happy people hosted a super spreader event to stop the lockdown but I have heard that the protest in Sydney or Melbourne a few weeks ago has organisational roots in a German conspiracy group.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/27/who-behind-australia-anti-covid-lockdown-protest-march-rallies-sydney-melbourne-far-right-and-german-conspiracy-groups-driving-protests

Sounds like a reddit thread lead to Australian anti lockdown protests cus people like to watch shit burn if it's not in their country.

But your blowdarts idea! Wowee that's a good one, let the hunt begin! :thumbup:


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27483452 - 09/27/21 07:12 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

There's a difference between protesting and vandalism with violence.

The people caught in their cars as that crowd moved between them stomping on cars would've been terrified.

If you think back to previous union marches this sort of shit doesn't happen. It wasn't led by the CFMEU it was led by a group of fucking idiots that are scared of needles.

This protest had next to zero public support, unlike most unionised protests where a reasonable % of the public understand and sympathise with the protest... not this time.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27483575 - 09/27/21 09:16 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Saying that a protest has "zero public support" seems a bit oxymoronic.

At minimum, the paid actors participating support it.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27483911 - 09/27/21 01:29 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I said "next to zero"

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27484401 - 09/27/21 09:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

It certainly wasn't a million people.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27484542 - 09/27/21 10:43 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I think the CFMEU has around 30 000 members in Victoria.

The crowd that trashed the union office was around 500. Not all the dickheads that attended were CFMEU members, so about 1.5% were in favour of no vaccines.

What’s really got people pissed is the construction industry has been one of the few industries to remain open while others have done the right thing and suffered financially.

These people have few friends after the protest turned ugly.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27484868 - 09/28/21 08:59 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

To be fair, the Australian construction industry needs to be open 25/8 if people want to ever own a house again.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27485566 - 09/28/21 06:31 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
There's a difference between protesting and vandalism with violence.




Do you have a source? I have only seen cops beating up on disabled people, old people, shooting rubber bullets and attacking non-violent protesters. Some of these which weren't even protesters...

Here is a long testimonial from someone that claims he was not a protestor, but simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Byrain]
    #27486473 - 09/29/21 02:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

That guy certainly has a case against the cops. I’ve had similar happen to me and its totally  wrong and unacceptable.
Similar to the people that had their cars stomped on. There’s footage on YouTube.
Both scenarios are unacceptable.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27491814 - 10/04/21 06:28 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)



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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Asante]
    #27507384 - 10/17/21 12:54 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Forget about the submarines... wassat? everybody already has?... well that's good then, so listen up!

THE MURDOCH MEDIA IN AUSTRALIA HAVE CHANGED THEIR POSITION ON CLIMATE CHANGE DENIAL... don't make me say it again it's true!
Did Jerry Hall stop sucking Rupert's dick until he changed the orders? I'm fucked if I know why he did it, don't ask questions just, I dunno? Just enjoy the unthinkable :super:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/06/business/news-corp-climate-change.html

https://www.afr.com/rear-window/the-damascene-conversion-of-news-corp-australia-20211011-p58z2w

https://junkee.com/news-corp-australia-climate-change/311290


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27507399 - 10/17/21 01:18 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/26/i-havent-even-begun-to-fight-matt-canavan-to-defy-nationals-party-room-if-majority-back-net-zero

The (conservative) Liberal/National Party coalition government are about to have the biggest shit fight we're likely to see for a long time, guaranteed :super:

The Liberal MP's are getting pressure from their affluent inner city constituents who DON'T hold the same climate scepticism as the government. This is EXACTLY how Tony Abott was finally fucked off out of Federal politics when Zali Steggel kicked his arse last election, over climate change, so they're worried.

The National Party have become strange bedfellows with the coal mining industry so they are NOT going to budge on any policy that looses coal jobs.

I hope the Liberals and the Nationals murder each other over this :super: as they've BOTH been THE problem with Australia's piss weak carbon emission targets.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27507403 - 10/17/21 01:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27507449 - 10/17/21 03:02 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

That billboard in Times Square is gold :thumbup:

It's bizarro... I'm waiting for the cigar to explode, ya know? :popcorn: ... like imagine these pair of twats AND Newscorp all going green at the same time? I'm sure I'm missing something here??


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27507842 - 10/17/21 11:38 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe they looked at the latest climate models and realized that they would like to have an Australia to do business in 20 years from now?

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27507989 - 10/17/21 01:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not sure what their reasoning is? We're talking about a Federal government and a media giant having a green epiphany simultaneously.

The way this was announced via Newscorp last Monday was so purposely obvious I'm still waiting for the 'ha ha gotcha' punchline.

As long as ScoMo is serious and inline with the rest of the world I don't care... but it won't be that simple.
The coal mining MP's like Matt Canavan and George Christensen and even my own MP Resources Minister Keith Pitt will be SPEWING they have to support ScoMo over this with Matt Canavan already drawing a line in the sand saying he
won't, with no prize for guessing what George Christensen thinks... it's gonna be awesome this week.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/joyce-expects-colleagues-to-reject-deeper-cuts-to-greenhouse-gas-emissions-by-2030-20211017-p590oj.html

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27510328 - 10/19/21 02:52 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

ABC's Media Watch summarised the decades long Newscorp climate change denial interference and their recent backflip nicely below.

The significance of the Murdoch media FINALLY backing off with their climate change denial BULLSHIT should not be overlooked with anyone wondering why Australia hasn't done better on climate change action in the past.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27510340 - 10/19/21 03:04 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

That's a great point.

Are there any big elections coming up, in which the right-wingers are likely to lose? Might just be some face saving for COP26, but I don;t see why that would start now.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27510531 - 10/19/21 06:32 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I don’t know if you watched that Media Watch video, and that’s cool, but ex prime minister Malcolm Turnbull says similar to what you’re saying and that is the Murdoch press aren’t going to politically crucify the present government for implementing a net zero emissions target.
The situation where a media outlet can topple a government is exactly where we are at in Aus, and is exactly why our media ownership laws are flawed.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27510724 - 10/19/21 10:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I do tend to skip videos. But, I watched this one. First off, do all news stations have that many different voices? Like, holy shit. Guess I haven't watched the news in way too long.

And yeah, I agree that Murdoch is giving political cover, but I don't have a clear "why?", at least, without relevant background. To wit: why does Morrison need political cover? Is there enough climate-related activism that he is in danger even backed by Newscorp? Is there some other reason? The whole investment thing from the beginning I don't buy, because if this was entirely about money then they would be in a more profitable industry. News exists to shape public opinion, not to earn money.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27510861 - 10/20/21 03:03 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

:smile:  All the voices? So ABC'S Media Watch does a weekly show highlighting the worst media stories and uses different voices to convey the headlines from different newspapers.
They look at print media as well as tv, that's why they started the show with Carrie Bickmore from Channel 10. It's interesting you point that out as I'm so used to it.
It's a great show as they fact check the hell out of journalists across the board, they even fact check the journos at the ABC!... which is even more reason to love the ABC :heart:

Why would Murdoch be giving ScoMo's conservative government political cover?... I''ll guess and say they chose a point of difference as their business model and have ended up morphing into the right wing juggernaut we are stuck with today.
It's not some sort of conspiracy.

To give you more background geeez, we would have to go back and look at the last 15 years of climate and energy debate.
I'll summarise it by saying in the late 2000's Labor had a decent attempt at implementing effective climate change related policies like a renewable energy target, as well as a couple of different
versions of a tax on carbon.... nobody likes taxes and Labor's strategies were an easy target for the conservatives backed by the profit driven fossil fuel and mining and business industries.... fast forward past 14 years of garbage politics and like it or not the world has moved on, renewables are now cheaper than coal, gas or nuclear, coal mining is seen as a risk that is almost unable to gain insurance, the science is no longer debatable that climate change is a happening thing, and the icing on the cake; Aus will be hit with a carbon tax via other countries now anyway!

So basically the position they've painted themselves into is fucking ridiculous, and I think it's fantastic that 85% of Australians want some real action to start happening... we wanted something happening 15 years ago!
Tony Abbott, worst cunt of a prime minister to ever darken the doorway of Parliament House lost his affluent Sydney seat of Manly-Warringa to an independent last election... an independent!... he was beaten by a very well co-ordinated campaign that was community driven as people had had enough of his BULLSHIT! so yeah the conservatives have lost this one, we are all collectively waiting to see what sort of deal ScoMo is doing with his National Party coalition partners this week to see IF he takes a net zero commitment with him to Glasgow.

God, I need a beer after all that  :beer:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27511535 - 10/20/21 04:24 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
So basically the position they've painted themselves into is fucking ridiculous,




Yeah, but that was true 15 years ago, I still don't see why they're suddenly switching sides. Especially since they're a juggernaut.

I shall take a dig into it, assuming I don't spend my entire night playing starsector.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27511634 - 10/20/21 05:51 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:I still don't see why they're suddenly switching sides.




You and the rest of Australia.
Fran Kelly read this out last Monday morning on Radio National just like Carrie Bickmore did, wondering if she’d misread the article.
After she’d finished reading the headline her dry humour comment was “they’re a bit late getting on this horse aren’t they?” :lol:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27513119 - 10/22/21 02:06 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Well, we're last in climate efforts, although our export of coal are bad, even with that aside we dawdle a lot as a country.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27513747 - 10/22/21 02:30 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I hate to say it but if the world is still going to burn coal in the short term, and it is, it probably should be burning Aus coal.

Quote:

Ismet Canbulat, the chair of rock mechanics at UNSW's school of mining engineering, told Fact Check that Australia "on average" has cleaner coal than other countries.

"But in fact it's not really clean coal - it's the amount of coal burnt for the required amount of energy is less if you use Australian coal because the ash content is lower, which means you burn less coal, which means you put less CO2 into the atmosphere," he said.

He said the ash content of Australian coal varied between eight per cent and 20 per cent, so not all Australian coal was cleaner but on average it was.

A report supplied to Fact Check by the Minerals Council of Australia showed that Australia was a significant exporter of high energy-content, thermal coals.




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-27/fact-check-is-australias-export-coal-cleaner/6952190

The coal that will come out of the giant Adani mine(in the Galilee Basin) isn't as good as the coal that is found in the Bowen Basin, this is why Adani should have never been given the go ahead.
Like most issues the answer isn't black and white.

When science works out how to run a blast furnace on hydrogen and ships on ammonia, then we will see a major shift in capital and fossil fuel use drop dramatically. :super:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27513909 - 10/22/21 04:48 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I think the point is that Australia hasn't made real progress towards climate action in either of the 4 metrics.

Quote:

Australia has been ranked dead last for climate action in the latest Sustainable Development Report, which assesses the progress of countries towards achieving the Sustainable Development Goals.

In the latest edition of the report, produced by the UN-backed Sustainable Development Solutions Network, Australia received the lowest score awarded to any of the 193 members of the United Nations for the level of climate action, a withering repudiation of the Coalition government’s climate efforts.

The annual report is an authoritative assessment of countries progress towards meeting the Sustainable Development Goals, including the progress of countries towards goals relating to “climate action” and the adoption of “affordable and clean energy”.
Australia received the lowest score awarded, just 10 out of 100, for the ‘climate action’ goal, which tracks countries across four core metrics, including the level of emissions from fossil fuel use, embedded emissions in imports and exports and progress towards implementing an effective price on greenhouse gas emissions.

According to scores provided in an database included with the latest assessment, Australia ranked amongst the top three countries for exported greenhouse gas emissions per capita, behind only Qatar and Norway. Australia also ranked among the top ten countries for per capita fossil fuel use.

The report found that Australia had not achieved any positive progress against the four ‘climate action’ metrics and saw Australia slip below Brunei, the only country that received a worse score than Australia for climate action in the 2020 edition of the report.

While Australia ranked very poorly on climate and clean energy, it received much better scores on goals relating to public health, education and economic performance.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/australia-ranked-dead-last-in-world-for-climate-action-in-latest-un-report/amp/?__twitter_impression=true




Dat kleen koal

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/trump-thinks-clean-coal-is-when-workers-mine-coal-and-then-actually-clean-it-b56a2d4317bc/


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27514379 - 10/22/21 09:18 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I gave up on the government doing anything substantial towards addressing climate change years ago and put my faith in capitalism instead.
When the numbers don’t stack up for coal anymore the capital will dry up.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27524945 - 10/31/21 06:15 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27526571 - 11/01/21 03:59 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

:lol: Emanuel Macron and Scotty from Marketing.
These fuckers won’t save the world :anymore than I will :thumbdown:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27567339 - 12/03/21 08:17 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I'll reboot this because I don't like the ALP's plans.

I voted LNP last election and gladly did, and why?

I didn't like the Shorten politics of envy per punishment taxing of the retired. He had plans to double-tax franked dividends. This would have seriously costed me a steady stream and just about all of the retired. Better the retired be self-funded than look to welfare.

Shorten also wanted to increase the tax by 25% on equity profits sold at the 13th month on the FY. Again, if I change a horse Shorten wants a cut, fuck him. He also wanted to reduce, at the time, the non-concessional input to Super from 100k to 75k. Seriously, the goal for all Australians is to get as much into super as they can, to: 1.) suffer only 15% taxation on growth; and 2.) have zero percent taxation once they reach preservation (a sum of 1.7-mil currently thanks to ScoMo). Shorten also wanted to end negative gearing which would have led to a rental crisis like that other fuck'tard PM Hawk did in the 80's.

Shorten was so on the nose even his own party booted him.

All up the ALP's game was all to screw people like me and all other Australians who overwhelmingly are prosperous and by endeavour so they voted to reject the ALP. Yes, the LNP won and will again. Fuck the Australian Left because they want to fuck Australia!

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27567628 - 12/03/21 12:46 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I'll be voting Labor this election.

Last federal election the LNP ran on a fear campaign and all the millionaires shit their pants. Instead of giving the younger generation a chance to buy a home they smugly voted for a party that did the opposite.

We need a redistribution of wealth in Australia, housing isn't seen as an essential item, it's a way for the rich to get richer and that sucks :thumbdown:

The LNP has stimied the clean energy debate for the last 15 to 20 years, they don't represent the broader communities views. Fuck the LNP and fuck Tony Abbott, Barnaby Joyce, George Christensen, Christian Porter and Matt Canavan  and the rest of them.

Labor got Aus through the GFC by injecting cash into the system. The LNP howled the whole way. Come covid what did they do? exactly the same.

I'll happily pick the lesser of 2 evils and vote LABOR.

So should anyone in the upcoming NSW local election. The NSW LNP are a party of crooks and Jordan Shanks agrees.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27568342 - 12/03/21 10:44 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Given the majority of federal governance has been by the conservatives since WW2 indicates the majority of Australians are centre-right. They don't want this idea of "redistribution of wealth" which means taxation thievery as Shorten had planned. 

The ALP plan for the previous federal had nothing to do with giving the young a chance at buying their first home nor has the ALP any actual policy to that end even now. What Shorten was out to do, was to do down equities investors whose capital drives companies, innovation and entrepreneurs. That's jobs! Shorten ran a campaign of greed, claiming any who had worked, saved and invested were hoarding, despite the fact they had worked their whole lives (a.k.a the retired). The real greed is by the Socialists who want to take it without actually having created it. Shorten was a union hack and never a businessman. He knows nothing about how to make his own money aside fat cat salaries. That's the general malaise of the ALP. The only one worth a bob is Latham and he left knowing the ALP is little more than a Greens romance.

You best realise that Socialism does not create wealth. Private enterprise does. It's also why we have the range of consumables we do. If you're not convinced compare what the Soviet Union had as their main car being a Lada to what the West has, chalk and cheese. If you want that grey breadline world then go to Venezuela or Cuba. No incentive means nothing brilliant happens.

Quote:

Labor got Aus through the GFC by injecting cash into the system. The LNP howled the whole way. Come covid what did they do? exactly the same.




And the ALP are not howling over the cost of COVID to the economy? You know damned well they are. So spare me this spin. 


You should acknowledge Howard left a nice 80-billion in the pantry when the shit show of the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd PM'ships pi$$ed it away like drunken sailors. That's all the Socialists can do is blow others' money as they can never make any themselves. What's more, despite the massive dough of the mining boom over those years (2007 to 2013) Australia came out broke. The LNP again having to pick up the pieces as they do every time these ALP hacks get their hands on the piggy bank.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27568529 - 12/04/21 01:36 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Lol.
Maybe you should post who you're voting for in the sustainability thread? Nothing says sustainability like coal right?
These are the greedy obnoxious fucktards you're voting for you do realise?... Of course you do  :puke:


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27568609 - 12/04/21 04:30 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

What do you propose as the replacement to the income coal brings to Australia?

$54.62-billion for 2020. And huge sums like that years back too. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1120570/australia-export-value-of-coal/

You have to be realistic. We have a welfare bill of $180-billion a year.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/welfare-expenditure

I guess your idea of a "redistribution of the wealth" will sort it out, correct? Then we'll all be broke because no one will want to put in any graft when those that didn't still get the same.

You should also appreciate Australian coal is high quality, energy dense, low in sulphur. If Australia ceased coal exports our main buyers (India and China) would source else where seeing to greater emissions and sulphuric acid rains. https://www.minerals.org.au/news/australian-coal-leads-world-quality

You should also note, as you'll be reading this tonight, that the overwhelming majority of NEM generation is coal, simply because the grid is already near tapped out on intermittency and at risk of not meeting critical the 50 mhz frequency. Unless further renewable input is commensurate to dispatchable gas and/or storage then coal will remain in the mix. See the live generation data graph. https://reneweconomy.com.au/

All up cease with your emotive drivel and debate with the facts. Coal is not going to be ended by idealism but rather by staged and nuanced policy.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27570912 - 12/05/21 10:54 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

If you earn less than 100k a year and you think that a redistribution of wealth will have a negative impact on you, then I think we need to start a discussion about the specifics of what wealth will specifically be taxed, who it belongs to, how much has been payed in the past, and why it hasn't been payed in the past.

etc.
Quote:

Some of Australia's biggest companies paid more in political donations than tax in 2018-19

Tax report reveals Chevron Australia paid no tax on $900m but $129,685 in donations to Labor, Liberal and National parties

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/dec/11/australian-arm-of-fossil-fuel-giant-chevron-paid-no-tax-on-income-of-900m-in-2019




All I want is campaign finance reform of some sort.

The Australian 'Democratic' Party is literally unheard of with little to no support or members, but I'm at least a fan of this idea specifically for an accountability plan.

Quote:

HomeAccountability
Openness, accountability, truth and the public’s right to know are essential principles and protections in a democracy.
.

Accountability has been central to the work of the Australian Democrats in Federal Parliament for over 40 years and we have had many, many successes such as curbing secrecy in government contracts and initiating the first ever review of parliamentary entitlements. But ever since, the corruption and abuse of power has become normalised, systemic. 

The lines dividing government from big business have virtually collapsed under successive Coalition Governments

Nick Feik, The Monthly, Feb 2021

The Coalition Government shows contempt for accountability. There are no consequences for ministers found guilty of rorting or making serious mistakes like Robodebt or JobKeeper budgeting. Robodebt cost billions in payouts and untold damage to the people affected for which no member of government apologised, let alone, stood down.

Parliamentary accountability plan
.

A National Integrity System comprising:
National Integrity Commission (new) 
Office of the Australian Information Commission
Commonwealth Ombudsman  
Whistleblower Protection Authority (new)  
Australian National Audit Office.
Commissioner for Ministerial & Parliamentary Ethics
Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity
A NIS must be independent, appointed by the Governor General on the advice of the Parliament and funded as determined by a committee of parliament.

It must have the investigative powers of a royal commission and be able to conduct public hearings. It must be able to receive and refer complaints from the public .

It should make findings of fact, but not findings of corruption, and leaves questions of prosecution to the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Political parties and donations
A financial cap on all electoral and campaign spending, per political party and per candidate and limits on amounts that can be donated, in line with NSW.

Disclosure thresholds reduced to $1,500, accumulative, disclosure within 7 days and public release of data ahead of the election so voters know where the money comes from and what influence it might have on government decisions

‘Jobs for the boys’
Entrench merit-based appointments by spelling out skills and backgrounds required, the basis on which candidates are appointed and ruling out those who are politically affiliated except in limited circumstances.

Introduce a mandatory 3-year post-ministerial ‘cooling-off’ period.

Conflicts of interests
Conflicts of interest should not just be declared; they should be rigorously avoided. Where this is not possible, the individual concerned must not have influence over decisions made and the conflict must be recorded on a publicly accessible register.

This should apply to MPs and their staff, public servants, consultants and government appointees.

Reform of politician’s salaries and entitlements
The Remuneration Tribunal to benchmark the resources parliamentarians require to do their job against relevant international standards and to conduct public hearings and any change agree by a vote of parliament

Ban the use of electorate allowances for election campaigns and non parliamentary purposes

Tri-annual Audits by the Auditor General of the use of parliamentary entitlements

Codes of conduct
Enforceable, statutory codes of conduct for ministers and their staff, developed by a joint committee of the parliament. These codes must make it clear that ministers must stand down from the ministry if found breaching the codes.

Ministerial staffers accountable to parliamentary committees in defined circumstances

Measures to protect the impartiality of public service advice and diminish policy-making by spin-doctors, eg. clearly documented and transparent channels of communication between ministerial staff and the public service.

Govt. advertising, data, and spin
Strengthen the guidelines for government advertising and have ads approved for compliance by an independent body.

Ensure party logos do not appear on government announcements.

Require political parties to disclose how they use data for political campaigning and ban lies and misleading statements in political advertising.

https://www.democrats.org.au/accountability-campaign/?fbclid=IwAR0maQBO6C5p5XGOisGnge_1vCsqkUi57w34pMimb0MYHME-H5JCyIcojWs




P.S. I say 'democrat' because American democrats are corrupt corporate shills and I'm not a fan of American democrats. Obviously American republicans are too.


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27571014 - 12/06/21 04:35 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If you earn less than 100k a year and you think that a redistribution of wealth will have a negative impact on you, then I think we need to start a discussion about the specifics of what wealth will specifically be taxed, who it belongs to, how much has been payed in the past, and why it hasn't been payed in the past.




Well over that and I'm not interested in the ideas of the "redistribution of wealth", and "who it belongs to" is the one who earned it.

I rather like Kerry Packer's take on this subject.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27571533 - 12/06/21 03:29 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I earned all my money yet I still pay taxes.

Do you think it's okay to have loopholes that allow billion dollar companies to pay nothing in taxes?

What benefit do you get out of a company like Google or Apple paying pennies in taxes?

Unless you're the CEO of a multinational company that actually benefits from these kind of loopholes, I'm curious why this would be a good thing.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27571540 - 12/06/21 03:33 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

You aren't a company though. They use their money to hire more people(create jobs) and reinvest in their company. These things arent taxed because they help the country.

As soon as someone in the business gets paid then it is taxed.

I am an American so sorry for jumping in your aussie thread :P


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: The Mycologist]
    #27571683 - 12/06/21 05:41 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

And yet in the US companies are considered people, allowing for legal bribery which is considered 'free speech'.

Quote:

January 21, 2020 will mark a decade since the Supreme Court’s ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, a controversial decision that reversed century-old campaign finance restrictions and enabled corporations and other outside groups to spend unlimited funds on elections.

While wealthy donors, corporations, and special interest groups have long had an outsized influence in elections, that sway has dramatically expanded since the Citizens United decision, with negative repercussions for American democracy and the fight against political corruption.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/citizens-united-explained




If you can find support for trickle down economics I'd appreciate sharing it here.

Stock buybacks don't help the common person, and profits get stored in bank accounts, not spent. If a company makes a billion in profit, you don't want that taxed?

Quote:

Criticisms of Trickle Down Theory

Trickle-down policies typically increase wealth and advantages for the already-wealthy few. Although trickle-down theorists argue that putting more money in the hands of the wealthy and corporations promotes spending and free-market capitalism, ironically, it does so with government intervention. Questions arise such as, which industries receive subsidies and which ones don't? And, how much growth is directly attributable to trickle-down policies?

Critics argue that the added benefits the wealthy receive can distort the economic structure. Lower-income earners don't receive a tax cut adding to the growing income inequality in the country. Many economists believe that cutting taxes for the poor and working families does more for an economy because they'll spend the money since they need the extra income. A tax cut for a corporation might go to stock buybacks while wealthy earners might save the extra income instead of spending it. Neither does much for economic growth, critics argue.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/trickledowntheory.asp




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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27571760 - 12/06/21 07:02 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I earned all my money yet I still pay taxes.

Do you think it's okay to have loopholes that allow billion dollar companies to pay nothing in taxes?

What benefit do you get out of a company like Google or Apple paying pennies in taxes?

Unless you're the CEO of a multinational company that actually benefits from these kind of loopholes, I'm curious why this would be a good thing.




The money not squandered by the government is better re-invested into the companies. With their capital retained they can expand their operations employing more people. You may see a CEO has a luxury home, a yacht and the rest of the bling, that pales to the waste once in the government hands - I worked in federal departments and they're plain hopeless.

The amount of money the CEO's have is a tiny fraction of what constitutes the business. Some people have this idea a CEO of a billion dollar company is sitting in an underground secret 007 bad guy like vault with a billion dollars all stacked up to the ceiling. He/she is not. They'll live with a small proportion of bling and the MOST in the business. If the government was managing that they'd be a whole lot less efficient and drive the business bust. I have no problem such wealthy people exist because they're the reason why we have the world we do. If capitalists want more they earn it. Socialists simply steal it.

It should be appreciated the private sector employs the vast majority of the people which in turn pay the taxes. It also allows shareholders to get in on the action whose capital further enables companies to grow and employ. If you're not investing and expect a basic salary to get you ahead you're dreaming. You need to get your money working for you by time leverage and not you working for it. That's how it is. There's a thread here railing against capitalism dated 16 years ago. The same whines today. Had they put their dough into ETF's they'd have multi-baggers to this day which is driven by the very capitalist companies they loath. I'd trying to tell you your cries are punching the ocean. Pointless. Yep, 16 years from now it will all be the same.

And they're not tax evading. They're legally tax minimising same as that Kerry Packed video I put up.

I minimise my tax too. I've already spoken about how one can do that earlier in this thread and if you're not doing so you should. You should also be aware you can arrange with your accountant a concessional catch-up if you have not contributed sufficient in the prior FY to 25k. This FY is 27.5k. Important numbers. Don't miss out on them.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27571864 - 12/06/21 09:06 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Unless implemented in a recession, a corporate tax reduction doesn't create jobs.

I haven't looked up Australian data yet, but in America there has been a lot of new jobs in the past few years, but a lot of them are low paid, and hence people requiring 2 or 3 jobs to survive.

Quote:

Supporters of cutting corporate taxes argue that those savings would free up more capital for investment, allowing companies to expand operations and hire more workers.

That was the argument then-candidate Trump offered last year when he proposed "reducing taxes tremendously" for both small and big businesses.

What they found was that more than half of these lightly taxed companies actually shed jobs during the period when the overall economy boosted payrolls by 6 percent. Of the 92 companies studied, the median change in payrolls was minus 1 percent.

Where did the tax savings go? Many of the companies on the list used the free cash to buy back stock, helping to boost the price of their company's shares. The top 10 job cutters each spent $45 billion in stock buybacks over the 2008-2015 period, a pace six times that of the S&P 500 corporate average, according to the researchers.

The review also found that CEO pay among the 92 companies rose 18 percent during the period, compared with a 13 percent increase among S&P 500 CEOs.

While the review is not scientific, the conclusion that corporate tax cuts don't create jobs is backed by other economic research.

In 2014, New York University economists Alexander Ljungqvist and Michael Smolyansky analyzed differences in state corporate tax rates and found that they had little impact on job creation.

"We find little evidence that corporate tax cuts boost economic activity," they found, "unless implemented during recessions when they lead to significant increases in employment and income".

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/30/theres-little-evidence-that-cutting-corporate-taxes-creates-jobs.html




Overall, it doesn't matter what the CEO spends their money on, or if they have nice things, that's not what I'm talking about here. It's the fact that multibillion dollar companies do not pay a dime in taxes, and that this puts a tax burden on middle and low income individuals because they are the ones paying for roads, healthcare, subsidies etc.

It sounds to me like you're completely fine with corporate welfare.

There are good and bad aspects to both socialism and capitalism. Everyone appreciates the input of business, and the frameworks of our society like roads, hospitals and firefighters.

If you gave all your money to your kids they wouldn't pay taxes until they're 12. There are ways to reduce your tax, but as an individual there is no way to pay no tax.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27572012 - 12/07/21 01:01 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Unfettered capitalism is also why prescription prices are through the roof in the US. So a kudos to Australia for some regulation to prevent price gouging.


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27572056 - 12/07/21 03:47 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Corporations do pay tax. https://www.ato.gov.au/general/tax-and-corporate-australia/

Pharmaceuticals are subsidised and there is a public medical system called Medicare.

I believe health is a national matter. I'd like to see a sugar tax on processed foods to drive processed foods to use less sugar and to encourage the public to eat more whole and unprocessed food. The US is a bad model for health hence the obesity it has and why COVID has killed so many. 

The difference of Australia to the US is here has more checks and balances. That doesn't stop the Left however demanding more which would simply see business leave to more tax friendly shores.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27572406 - 12/07/21 12:17 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

And kudos to those that do.

Quote:

Hundreds of companies pay no tax, says ATO as it releases latest corporate tax transparency data

Dec 2020


Of the 2,311 entities in scope for the 2018–19 transparency report, which looks at the situation before the COVID-19 pandemic, 741 entities (32 per cent) did not pay any tax.

But the ATO said some entities belonged to a larger group where at least one corporate in the group did pay tax, and when that was considered, the percentage with nil tax payable dropped to 22 per cent (449 entities).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/12967064




Millionaires don't tend to leave the country if they pay their fair share.

Quote:

If you tax the rich, they won’t leave: US data contradicts millionaires’ threats

Does raising taxes on the rich really trigger their migration to more obliging states or countries? This study of every million-dollar earner in the US shows otherwise

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/20/if-you-tax-the-rich-they-wont-leave-us-data-contradicts-millionaires-threats




And then of course billionaires already hide their money offshore as shown in both the Panama and Pandora papers.

Quote:

Offshore havens and hidden riches of world leaders and billionaires exposed in unprecedented leak

https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/global-investigation-tax-havens-offshore/




The US health model is like fairy floss in rain.

Too much stuff has sugar in it at the super market, I'll say that again!


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27573113 - 12/08/21 02:26 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
And kudos to those that do.





Well, I guess you won't like this post given your kudos to the Left.

And yes I could get caught in the weeds and argue on all your points or just shrug and accept you're either in the club or you're not. This club will grow as why leave what is the best country (so you're right there).

Seventy-three millionaires paid no tax in 2017-18, while Australia's richest people live in Sydney's Double Bay, on average earning more than 16 times the nation's poorest, who live in central-west Queensland. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-18/tax-stats-2017-18-ato-millionaires-no-tax/12467016?nw=0&r=HtmlFragment


From my summary sheet the conservative retirement model I crafted in May 2019 for the years 2019 to 2029 has been eclipsed by 160k and we're only in 2021. I started the count from September 2019 and is currently 3.622-mil, and the previous FY reached ~3.5-mil. I'll see how I go at the end of this FY quarter and there may be a Santa rally. Doesn't include the property I own, or gold bullion, and cash I side line for shares and doing nicely on the Omicron dip we've had.



Here's my tax for the FY. I redacted the income dollars so it's somewhere in $17,000 and the return to somewhere in $2,000 and the ATO number. It even came with a return. Why? Because I came in under $18,200 income so it was zero tax. Same for my wife and her tax return was even better than mine. Only way to get ahead is tax minimisation. We're over $1,000 every day, weekends too since the count started; yes, aiming to be in the same club the ABC article ^above howled about.




Too true, this was Kerry Packer's accountant...

Another myth is people go round and say 'I'm paying more tax therefore I must be making a lot of money', that's rubbish, you pay more tax because you've got a lazy accountant. https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/kerry-packers-former-accountant-allan-mason-shares-secret-tax-tips/59669c2d-e62f-4141-910f-db71f9714cfa

From the same link ^above. Kerry Packer is totally correct...

I am not evading tax, in any way shape or form, now of course I am minimising my tax and if anybody in this country doesn't minimise their tax they want their heads read, because as a government I can tell you, you're not spending it that well, that we should be donating extra," Mr Packer told the room back in 1991.

Kerry Packer was at one point Australia's richest man and even managed a mere $30.55 income tax.

Packer stated in 1991: 'I pay whatever tax I am required to pay under the law--not a penny more, not a penny less.' As this case demonstrates, it is perfectly legal under the present order for an individual with a multi-billion dollar fortune to pay absolutely no tax. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1998/10/tax-o15.html

His ATO notice of assessment would have looked similar to mine. Total legend as a billionaire to achieve that. Inspiration!

All 100% legal; unlike the hoards of drug dealers on these boards who declare zero of their illicit gains despite their profits milking their buyers' burglaries and other theft. Yes, on this type of board I'm sure I'd earn more acrimony from this post than if was a drug dealer who increases violence and crime. Where as on the Motley Fool forums they all praise any who get to zero tax to keep margins fat.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27573122 - 12/08/21 03:04 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It is perfectly legal under the present order for an individual with a multi-billion dollar fortune to pay absolutely no tax 




To support this in my opinion is a delusion of grandure, a greed in that if you were a billionaire you wouldn't want to pay taxes either.

The first 18k isn't taxed.. Yeah.

I'm not sure why your retirement plan starts with 1.8 million dollars but it puts in to question whether you earn less than 18k a year.

It's an important question here, if a billionaire pays nothing in taxes, how does that help you?


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27573164 - 12/08/21 04:27 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

I'm not sure why your retirement plan starts with 1.8 million dollars but it puts in to question whether you earn less than 18k a year.




First up, my accountant managed that. I pay for skills I don't have.

And 1.8m? You mean 3.6m per per what I posted (includes wife). Not including other assets, as said. Re-read my post. I'll also add I have no mortgage or debt. You can believe or not.

But given you appear to have misunderstandings that assets can grow on paper and be exempt from tax means you're not investing. Otherwise you'd know the market gains on property are not taxed nor the growth on shares. In Australia franked shares are not taxed either. Wealth is created this way by holding long term because real wealth is on paper. Even gold has a paper value per what the market price bears being the sell price. Ignoring other metal trades my original 2 kg of gold I bought in 2004 for $37,004 and still have, has on paper being market value, gone up to $160,177.08 per buy back from the Australian Bullion Company. No tax paid on that.

Imagine a world where for example one's house value goes up from 800k to 1000k in a single FY (as has happened in Australia's current real estate bull market - in fact there's even been 40% rises). To deal with this social disparity the Australian Taxation Office has seen the light and has finally adopted the "sudly school of thought" having read your Shroomery posts, and so they issue a tax bill on a deemed 200k of undeclared income. Really? Please, paper value is not taxed.

Back to your view on retirement plans, try this thought experiment: if you owned your own home and can't retire with your wife on say 3-mil in assets (that's 1.5m each), such as other properties and/or shares, then something is wrong. What's your figure you think you'll arrive at to retire? What are your plans to get there? Have you considered how to minimise taxes? How would you structure it in your SMSF and Trust? Do you know how? What sort of retirement would you like and would you like to do this much younger than most?

Before FIRE became a Millennial buzzword I has a similar mindset. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-retire-early-fire.asp

Quote:

It's an important question here, if a billionaire pays nothing in taxes, how does that help you?




Lets say a company share price goes up many fold and you think the billionaire CEO should pay tax? The growth, as already said, is on paper and 100% legal to not pay tax on. With the increase in capital the company they lead has more capital to grow, expand, employ and borrow as money is currently cheap. As a shareholder you will see greater capital growth and dividends too (which you roll back into more shares). The people employed pay taxes. Far more efficient having private enterprise manage capital than the government who are full of bureaucrats with no business experience.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27574197 - 12/08/21 10:50 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It can take quite a while to get a good return on your investments, and living in a country that supports your tuition, pays a good income and has affordable housing is a benefit.

I'm not sure if you see the point I'm making here but yes, wealth is not taxed.

And there sure are ways to reduce your capital gains taxes,

Quote:

Capital gains tax usually rears its head whenever you sell an asset for a profit,

You may have encountered the term’ capital gains tax’ (CGT) if you’ve ever looked into the possible implications of selling an asset, such as a property. According to the Australian Taxation Office (ATO), how it usually works is that any capital gain (profit) you make as a result of selling a capital asset is added to your assessable income for the year and taxed at your marginal rate. That being said, there are a handful of exceptions that can apply when it comes to selling a house, depending on factors such as what the house was used for and when you bought it.

You can reduce your capital gains tax by living in a property after purchasing it.

Under the principal residence exemption, you’re generally not required to pay capital gains tax if you sell the home you live in. When it comes to property, one of the significant exemptions from Capital Gain Tax is if it’s your home or principal place of residence (PPOR). You can generally claim the principal residence exemption from CGT for your home.

Hold on to any investment property for more than 12 months, and you could receive a 50% discount on your capital gain.

You will also be exempt from paying CGT on the sale of your house if you bought it before September 20, 1985, when CGT was introduced

https://www.ewmaccountants.com.au/blog/how-do-i-avoid-capital-gains-tax-in-australia/




You can make money on stock prices increasing, but it's not in tangible, spendable, taxable money.

So you can make a million dollars in a year but pay nothing in taxes.

The system is based on only paying taxes when you actually sell something.

Your worth isn't taxed unless you sell your stock and it's taxed as a capital gain.

If you have enough stocks, like billionaires, you can even get loans against your stocks to live off. Without having to spend any money, because without a sale there is no tax.

There is also a large loophole in capital gains taxes that the rich exploit called the stepped up basis.

If Bezos sold a stock, he'd have to pay capital gains tax based on his profit. So the cost of the stock minus the original investment. But if he holds of selling his entire life, when he dies, whoever inherits the stock and then sells it, would only have to pay taxes on what they earned after they inherited it, leaving all those original gains untaxed.

It's part of what's called, 'buy, borrow, die'. It's one way the richest families avoid paying taxes.

It's this system and the fact that most of the capital gains are going to the top 1% (60%) that lawmakers are looking to change the capital gains tax, which in the US at least stands at 20%.

Closing the stepped up loophole and increasing the maximum tax rate from 20% to 39.6% for people making more than 1 million a year.

Even if some millionaires sold less stock, it would bring in more tax revenue. Then a billionaire like Warren Buffet would be paying close to the tax rate of his secretary.

There are a lot of things we could do to make the system more fair. From taxes on wealth, to gains on the stock market. Changes to capital gains taxes wouldn't be the whole solution, but it would be an easy place to start.

The system is making the rich get richer and richer and richer and everyone else just not.


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27574326 - 12/09/21 05:43 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

You can make money on stock prices increasing, but it's not in tangible, spendable, taxable money.

So you can make a million dollars in a year but pay nothing in taxes.

The system is based on only paying taxes when you actually sell something.

Your worth isn't taxed unless you sell your stock and it's taxed as a capital gain.




Absolutely correct.

And lets face it the only plausible way to wealth is to go long term seeing your assets rise and you let them rise by not selling. Sure it may take a while but it's the long game not some get rich scheme. You start young and by your mid-40's you're set. This should be taught to one's kids and no surprise the wealthy always make sure they're financially literate.

Property in Australia has certainly doubled every 10 years for the last 25 years and in some hot real estate locations far more. Even ETF's will yield 7% or so p.a. Individual stock picking will do better. The trick is to go long, don't sell and certainly not in the same financial year.

All wealthy people are wealthy on paper; be it property, shares, commodities, precious metals, company ownership and so on. Few have more than 5% in cash because with today's piss poor interest rates that's a sure loss when it would be better working in the market, and needless to say to liquidate that much paper wealth will attract unnecessary CGT. Only liquidate as you require and always factor in loss incurred by tax and mitigate that loss such as sell a bad share. That way you'll have a folio that glows green on the screen.

I will say the Left, being the  Australian Labor Party (ALP) led by Bill Shorten, had plans to increase CGT on shares by 25%. He also wanted a tax on franked shares, a reduction in non-concessional Super contributions from 100k p.a down to 75k p.a, and the non-concessional contributions bring forward rule of 300k for 3 years down to 225k. He also wanted to get rid of negative gearing.

He lost his bid for federal election in a landslide to the Liberal National Party (LNP) being the conservatives, because Bill Shorten's policies were the politics of envy, an attack on the retired and the investing.

Well the non-concessional contribution has increased to 110k p.a this FY (no small part thanks to the LNP), so I opted to putting 660k on the bring forward rule to Super for myself and wife. I'm also concerned the ALP might win the coming federal and again legislate these Shorten type policies.

Basically you want to get what you can into super to avoid the ~35% tax on growth to a reduced 15% tax regime in pre-preservation. The aim to is to get 1.7-mil into Super per individual, or 3.4-mil per couple and this ceiling will grow based on CPI. Super in Australia attracts zero tax on growth once you reach preservation age which is why you want to get to the said number.

Shorten felt that's too much so he wanted to reduce the pace in which one can stash it so he could get his taxing hands on the growth for longer at a steeper rate. This also hurt tradespeople who often invest in property and wouldn't be able to put as much equity into the lower tax haven of Super. They voted against him.

I'm hoping sanity prevails as the mean and median average prosperity in Australia is at risk if the ALP wins this coming federal.

https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/one-in-10-australian-adults-are-millionaires-says-report-20210622-p5833t

Credit Suisse Australia head of private banking Michael Marr expects the number of US-dollar millionaires in Australia to increase “dramatically” by 70 per cent over the next five years to 3.1 million, based on trends identified in the bank’s annual global wealth report.


Quote:

If Bezos sold a stock, he'd have to pay capital gains tax based on his profit. So the cost of the stock minus the original investment. But if he holds of selling his entire life, when he dies, whoever inherits the stock and then sells it, would only have to pay taxes on what they earned after they inherited it, leaving all those original gains untaxed.




That's the same here. It's good and only fair and is why one has binding beneficiaries on their Super and confidence their assets outside of Super will be exempt of death duties. And really, if it wasn't stock and instead a property would you apply the same attack? Property goes up like stock but unlike stock which has an explicit stated value property is far more rubbery in its value.

Fortunately Australia doesn't have these absurd death taxes unlike the scandalous UK. Over there they let the beneficiaries keep the first 350k sterling and every quid after that is done 40 pence in the pound. If one gifts their children to avoid this they apply this inheritance tax retrospectively for 7 years.


Quote:

The system is making the rich get richer and richer and richer and everyone else just not.




You mean they're excluded from buying on the stock market?? You can get into that without having to borrow, unlike property. Go read the Australian Financial Review link I gave ^above and you'll see many are getting on board. So much so Australians are about the wealthiest on average (mean and median) in the world. Capitalism is working here.

To get ahead you may have to work two jobs, move to where it is cheaper in rent, part-time study to get a better qualification or to change career, save, invest and live frugally. Stay off the drugs to be focused as required. One commonality with many wealthy people is they're work-a-holics. They'll put in 70 to 80 hours a week. They're not on the bongs. No one said life would be easy.

Edited by Oz_Salvia (12/09/21 06:08 AM)

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27574356 - 12/09/21 06:23 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Before I go on, let me ask, did you inherent anything, was your tuition paid for by the government (your taxes), and if you own a house, in what year did you purchase it?


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27575047 - 12/09/21 05:24 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Before I go on, let me ask, did you inherent anything, was your tuition paid for by the government (your taxes), and if you own a house, in what year did you purchase it?




I paid up front all of my tuition because I worked part-time in undergraduate and then worked full-time and studied part-time in post-grad, to get the 20% discount on what was called the Higher Education Contribution Scheme known as HECS. If you didn't pay this up front you then carried this HECS debt for the rest of your days where it would rise based on CPI and would be paid back once you earned over a certain threshold of income.

Sure it's cheap money to borrow given it's only CPI growing but it's another complexity in life. It's easier in life to get ahead without debt and if you take on debt you only do it for an appreciating asset. After all banks and other lenders take HECS into consideration on what they can lend.

HECS was created by the ALP Governments of Hawke and Keating ending the era of what the ALP Whitlam government had set up as free tertiary education in 1973. Not a bean to be paid back. It created an entire and endless hoard of university bums, many into Marxism who never worked a proletariat day in their lives. Whitlam was a socialist in every sense and this was his intention to pollute the academic landscape long after he popped his clogs. To this day we have these boomers who all crow on about how there must be free education because theirs was.

PM Turnbull, the worst LNP PM to date and as Fabian Leftist as any in the ALP (hence his name Turncoat), decided to get rid of the 20% discount so he could cook the books by a sudden "on paper" increase of 20% HECS money to come back. All bullshit when the money is only projected over decades from now.

Thankfully there is now, as of this year, a reintroduction of a 10% discount to HECS if paid upfront. It should be reinstated to 20%. Because I know, if I had 80 cents in the dollar up front I'd be able to build back that 20% difference and even multi-bag it over the decades going forward; rather than wait on the principle growing on a meagre CPI only if the borrower actually earns an income of threshold. This is why I argue government is not as good in managing money as the private sector.

Yes, one day the debts will be privatised and market rates will apply and thresholds be abandoned. University should be looked at strategically as one would do a trade. You do it for a career not to get all WOKE. 

HECS is scaled on four bands and each band is more expensive as it goes up. It is a means to curtail too many in a particular area to reduce the glut of graduates unwanted in their field. So when you're a kid looking at uni you take this into consideration (or at least your parents do if you're that inept). You may even be flexible in your degree and change course to improve your career options and switch your studies e.g. geospatial to cyber architecture security (very much in demand so the band is lower). Life is about being agile. You adapt, you improvise and you overcome.

As for property, my first house I purchased was in 1997. I was young in my 20's. Property was cheaper back then in measure of gross income ratio, however interest rates were several times greater than they are now.

As for inheritance, from my grandmother it was ~$7,500, and from my mother it was $20,000. That's the sum of it. I don't begrudge others getting large inheritances, even if it's a billion+ dollars. It's the private wealth of other people and not there for pillage by strangers.

Your point?

You think I had an entitled/privileged upbringing? I paid my own way in life leaving home age 18 - the age one becomes an adult in Australia. I believe in making your own way in life. If the ne'er-do-wells can't cut it in the good times imagine how they'll go in the bad. Fortunately I live away from what I call sink-estates so they won't be coming here.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27575072 - 12/09/21 06:02 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The opportunities older generations have had are not available to younger generations. To say pick yourself up by the bootstraps while scoffing at the frustration of having a wall 3 times higher to climb is a privilege.

Quote:

The average wage in 1980 was $13,458, so the median house price was around 2.9x average income.  That was considered high at the time.

The multiple has increased since to around 9.7x.  Reasons for such continual growth in the median price are far more than merely wage growth, or inflation. 

https://integrityfinanceaustralia.com.au/blog/2020/4/21/guess-what-the-median-house-price-was-in-1980




Inheritance aside, the young are at a disadvantage from how things used to be, it straight up is harder to get a foot in the race and catch up or keep up with the crowd that's been in the game since the rules made it easier for them to win.

That's not even mentioning university tuition, which for a lot of the older generation was abolished in 1980 and kept for 14 years. It wasn't until participation increased that instead of capping tuition support to give everyone a fair opportunity, they scrapped it entirely.

The trick is to be born earlier.

The point is that laws surrounding wealth and stock transactions ought to be changed, and if it were only houses and not stocks, some changes would be good too.

For example, mega landlords buying up housing to decrease the supply and increase the median price is an issue too.

Estate taxes vary in who would actually pay them, sometimes they are designed to be for actual estates, not homes.

Quote:

The estate tax is a tax on a person's assets after death. In 2021, federal estate tax generally applies to assets over $11.7 million. In 2022, it rises to $12.06 million. Estate tax rate ranges from 18% to 40%. Some states also have estate taxes. Assets spouses inherit generally aren't subject to estate tax.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/estate-tax




No one is excluded from buying on the stock market, and capitalism has a lot of great aspects, plenty of it is making money hand over fist. Less loopholes and adjusted capital gains taxes don't destroy millionaires or billionaires, they take burden off the middle class and even the playing field at least some.

Some people in the US have three jobs because each pays less than a livable wage.

I don't expect to be buying a house in my 20s, we all understand investing has its merits, saving is a mindful thing, and hard work pays off.

I think an issue arises when one day, people have to work hard 3 times as long to achieve the same as their predecessors.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27575075 - 12/09/21 06:06 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I dont want free tuition, that's unfair as heck, because some people have a 6 figure debt while others have 10k.

A basic grant of 5k would go a long way imo.

And socialist is a hot word, because Venezuela and Sweden are not the same.



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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27575428 - 12/10/21 12:24 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

Less loopholes and adjusted capital gains taxes don't destroy millionaires or billionaires, they take burden off the middle class and even the playing field at least some.




Please, the wealthy in the US are already doing the heavy lifting in tax.

https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20the%20top%2050,percent%20combined%20(28.6%20percent).

In 2018, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97.1 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 2.9 percent. The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (40.1 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (28.6 percent).


Quote:

Some people in the US have three jobs because each pays less than a livable wage.




The issue there is an appropriate award wage. A fair day's wage for a fair day's work. Only fair.

Expect though, if the US were to do this, to pay more for a pair of jeans or other consumables as we do in Australia. Products are far cheaper in the US as the wages paid there are low. Hence why so many rely on tips. The US consequently has a tip culture which is not the case here. If you go to a café or restaurant here you're not expected to tip.


Quote:

I don't expect to be buying a house in my 20s, we all understand investing has its merits, saving is a mindful thing, and hard work pays off.




Well, I can't speak for the US on this issue. I can say it is still possible in Australia if one lives with their parents so rent is free and they save and invest. This 23 year old woman managed that on the Gold Coast; a city I see in view to the ocean.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10244843/Investor-23-reveals-bought-home-23.html


Quote:

I think an issue arises when one day, people have to work hard 3 times as long to achieve the same as their predecessors.




I still can't see how extra CGT and inheritance taxes will make property more affordable to you?

I think you should be looking at fair minimum wages so you don't have to "work 3 jobs" and at the same time you'll have to throttle down on consumables as they will soar in price once fair award wages are set.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27575440 - 12/10/21 12:55 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

You're referring to income tax, some people like Elon Musk limit their income tax greatly compared to what the average person can do. 

And there isn't mention of capital gains taxes in your linked article.

Quote:

ProPublica obtained confidential IRS data on thousands of wealthy people in its analysis. The analysis found that Mr Musk, as well as other prominent US billionaires, escaped paying federal income taxes.

The 25 richest Americans “saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018,” the publication reported. But collectively those Americans paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes over those five years, which was a true tax rate of just 3.4 per cent.

This compared to the median US households that earned about $70,000 annually but paid a 14 per cent tax rate to the federal government. Couples in the highest tax rate paid 37 per cent to the federal government for annual earnings of higher than $628,300, the analysis added.

Billionaire Warren Buffett, who had a reported income of $125 million over the five years despite his wealth growing 24.3 billion in that same timeframe, paid the lowest tax rate out of those analysed by the publication. His true tax rate was just 0.10 per cent.

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos, the world’s richest person, paid a total of $973 million in taxes to the federal government over the five-year period for his reported income of $4.22 billion, making his true tax rate 0.98 per cent.

Then Michael Bloomberg, the former New York City mayor and founder of Bloomberg LP, reported an income of $10 billion but paid just $292 million to the federal government for a true tax rate of 1.3 per cent.

ProPublica noted that billionaires have access to “tax-avoidance strategies beyond the reach of ordinary people,” which has likely assisted them in paying a lower true tax rate compared to the average American.

But the obtained IRS reports show a significant divide between America’s top earners and the rest of the country in percentage of wealth paid back to the federal government.

ProPublica did not disclose how it obtained the tax records, which are confidential to the private individual and illegal for the IRS to distribute.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-income-taxes-propublica-b1862013.html






Quote:

The issue there is an appropriate award wage. A fair day's wage for a fair day's work. Only fair.

Expect though, if the US were to do this, to pay more for a pair of jeans or other consumables as we do in Australia. Products are far cheaper in the US as the wages paid there are low. Hence why so many rely on tips. The US consequently has a tip culture which is not the case here. If you go to a café or restaurant here you're not expected to tip.







Living with your parents is a great way to save money. Family dynamics can be a complicated affair at times and living with your parents can be a serious compromise to privacy and mental health.

It seems to me that independence is a riskier choice, but it is because nowadays the proportion of your salary required to own a home has tripled in the last 40 years!

Looking into the investment market is a good strategy, but with potential for exponential growth I think the system should have caps.

Quote:

I still can't see how extra CGT and inheritance taxes will make property more affordable to you?




It's not that the tax revenue of extra CGT, inheritance and stock trading taxes would make housing more affordable, it's that they would provide more finances for public services like education, health, public transport and infrastructure.

I think Australia has a more decent minimum wage, at least here we don't rely on tips!


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27575557 - 12/10/21 03:49 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, the wealthy can get more wealthy if they simply let their investments grow and don't sell. It's a simple strategy.

They incur proportionally speaking a low income tax because, if you have several billion and get by on $5-mil a year, you'll pay a small amount of tax by mere drip-feed selling to get cash to get by. If they choose to live a truly extravagant lifestyle they pay more tax. Better from a shareholder's point of view (yes, yours truly) that they live frugally relative to their multi-billion dollar operations, so they have the maximum amount of capital to grow. I'm a fan of Warren Buffet as he does just that. Your list shows he's tight on personal fan fare.

So, I still can't see what's wrong with this?

They grow great companies producing the very household names and products we all use daily. Be it operating systems, cell phones, brands of vehicle, cosmetics, clothes, pharmaceuticals, shipping, trucking, air flight travel and so on. If their company wealth was taxed it would reduce the means to produce these great products and services. The best stewards of this are the very passionate and work-a-holic CEO's; yes the billionaires. Never in 100+ years of Communism have we seen a single Commissar produce anything like what the billionaires routinely do. We are lucky such people exist!

Now lets entertain your idea on taxing the gains on shares that have gone up even if not sold as a way to get a higher proportion of tax relative to their expanding holdings.

You should realise if one knocked off the value of the shares by a tax on a sliding scale of value that it would drive shares down when they reach these arbitrary lines. This would see to massive volatility. Why would I want to invest for example in Tesla or Amazon if I get slugged a "billionaire tax" on unrealised share sales? And by what I mean "unrealised" is shares not sold so the profits or losses have yet to be realised.

Yes, your idea is forcing a realised value on paper value shares. This is actually worse than margin loans that get called seeing to a forced sell off to claw back to lenders on a market where almost all is borrowed. That's how stock markets crash. It's worse because it would kill a bull market even with sound fundamentals where the tide is up for all. The US 401ks, Super in Australia and across the world would take the hit along with the billionaires. The very people who have created this opportunity for all to participate.

Which gets me to the next point; if unrealised shares can be taxed by forced selling, what about property? How is that assessed? Property is very rubbery and much can influence its price including the ability of the agent selling. Would it be some big government bloat like the IRS or ATO arbitrarily deciding the value based on goofy actuarial studies? Really??

The reason why none of this unrealised selling has never been rubber stamped is because private property is respected by law. You own every grain of whatever it is until you sell it and then you face taxes. If it's a profit you get taxed. If it's a loss you can use it to offset gain to minimise tax. This is not going to change.

Quote:

Living with your parents is a great way to save money. Family dynamics can be a complicated affair at times and living with your parents can be a serious compromise to privacy and mental health.




I moved out age 18 because of such, but perhaps if faced with the headwinds the young have today I'd have played it differently. None the less I chose a harder path regardless.


Quote:

It's not that the tax revenue of extra CGT, inheritance and stock trading taxes would make housing more affordable, it's that they would provide more finances for public services like education, health, public transport and infrastructure.




The billionaires already do this by employing no end of people who would otherwise be on welfare. Jobs and opportunity are made by the private sector. Taxes do not create prosperity because they act as brakes on economic activity.

And in closing that meme you posted of burgers sold in the US and in Denmark, I'll go by a bona fide source.

https://minimum-wage.procon.org/arguments/raising-the-minimum-wage-would-increase-the-price-of-consumer-goods/

A 2013 article by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago stated that if the minimum wage is increased, fast-food restaurants would pass on almost 100% of their increased labor costs on to consumers and that other firms may do the same. [2] A 2015 Purdue University study found that raising the wage of fast food restaurant employees to $15 or $22 per hour would result in a price increase of 4.3% and 25% respectively, or a reduction in product size between 12% and 70%: “a hamburger would be much smaller,” the researchers stated. [53] NBC News found that the price of a cup of coffee went up by 10 to 20% in Oakland, California, after a 36% minimum wage hike in the city to $12.25. The report also found a 6.7% rise in coffee prices in Chicago after the minimum wage rose to $10. [54] The Alberta Hotel and Lodging Association (Canada) found that a “sudden and significant increase to the minimum wage” would result in “ncreased prices for food & beverage, guest rooms and meeting facilities.” [55]

Edited by Oz_Salvia (12/10/21 03:59 AM)

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27575815 - 12/10/21 09:11 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Stable Genius, this is your thread and a good call as an oasis in a US-centric sub-board.

Yes, even though we will likely not agree per little and even less you may see my posts in your bias as boorish but you will agree I've kept this at the top of the subforum page. Not that I'm asking favours. :tongue:

So all said and done get back at your convenience so I can undress your ALP-esque ideals. Always a good muse to give the failed Leftie element a backhand. After all only on these boards and other lamenting platforms of sore arse'ry are such seen as they're still bent out of shape the majority voted LNP. Such will happen again. :laugh:

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia] * 1
    #27576527 - 12/10/21 06:50 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

You don't want to regulate loopholes that allow capital gains taxes to be avoided.

You don't want a wealth tax specific to billionaires and multimillionaires.

Quote:

Sen. Elizabeth Warren, Sen. Bernie Sanders and other Democrats on Monday proposed a 2% annual tax on wealth over $50 million, rising to 3% for wealth over $1 billion.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/03/01/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-propose-3percent-wealth-tax-on-billionaires.html




I get it that you want the bottom line to be padded, but there are 'bad' practices that allow for this, like using government subsidies to do stock buybacks, and monopolising pharmaceuticals to remove competition, price gouging and having no other companies that can challenge you.

From a shareholders point of view, all the peasants are dispendible and if their life is on the line it makes it easier to squeeze them for money.

Where on this scale do you think I am?



Corporate tax cuts for the most part don't lead to foreign investment, wage or job growth, but instead returns to shareholders or investment.

Quote:

While pie eating seems like a pretty Australian thing to do (cutlery or no cutlery), this part of the argument depends on us believing that: company tax cuts = increased foreign investment = a better economy = more jobs and increased wages for workers.

Firstly we should tackle some of the assumptions here. When people (usually business lobby groups) say things like “what’s good for business is good for Australia” the underlying message is: working Australian’s will be better off when businesses are making more money. This assumes that workers will somehow benefit from those profits. Benefiting from them would mean pay rises or more jobs or more secure jobs. In the case of company tax cuts what the business lobby is saying is: if the company pays less tax they have more money to spend on ‘other things’.

We’ve already seen that there doesn’t seem to be any real relationship between cutting company tax rates and increases in foreign investment. But we can still look at whether there is any benefit for workers in cutting company tax rates. Cutting the company tax rate from 30 to 25% will at least result, theoretically, in companies keeping 5% of their taxable income that previously went into government revenue. So what is likely to happen to this money?

What will those ‘other things’ be? Are they likely to be wage increases and new jobs?
To answer these questions we can look around the world, and here in Australia, at the connection between company tax rates and living standards.

When we mapped countries company tax rates against their living standards (which you can get a sense of by working out the GDP per capita) we found that there was no correlation between company tax rate and living standard. In fact, if anything, a country is slightly more likely to have a higher living standard if they have a higher company tax rate. So, on a global level at least, lower company tax rates don’t mean better living standards.

But what about in Australia? If company tax cuts are good for workers you’d expect that since the peak of company tax rates at 49% in 1986 to their current low of 30% you’d have seen wages increase. Instead what we see is that, as a share of our gross domestic product, wages have fallen by 13%.

When people talk about GDP what they’re talking about is ‘the pie’; everything in the whole economy that was bought and sold in a year; all the ‘economic’ activity, including wages. So despite a 19% decrease in the company tax rate, workers share of ‘the pie’ has declined by 13%.

So where does the money from company tax cuts actually go? Who’s getting more pie?
While we’ve seen that lowering the company tax rate doesn’t increase ‘the pie’ in Australia, it must do something for the business lobby to be so excited about it. And since Australian workers aren’t seeing any increase in their share of ‘the pie’, who is benefitting?

If we keep looking at wages what we find is that decline in the share going to workers is almost matched by a corresponding increase in the share of GDP (‘the pie’) going to corporate profits — especially the financial sector. And while that’s worrying in itself it doesn’t tell the full story about the corporate tax cuts.

To understand a bit better we can look at a few things.

Firstly, what do CEO’s themselves say they’ll spend the tax cuts on? Good question. When the CEO’s of the Business Council’s 130+ member companies were asked in a secret Business Council of Australia survey to nominate one of four options as their preferred response to the company tax cut in Australia, only 17% nominated higher wages or more jobs. Over 80% selected either returning funds to shareholders, or more investment.

Secondly, if we look at what has actually happened in the United States after the implementation of Trump’s tax cuts we can see that it resulted in big benefits to rich shareholders through share buy-backs and dividend increases, and an increase in mergers and acquisitions that benefit corporate executives and make big business even bigger.

https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/the-3-key-arguments-for-the-company-tax-cut-make-no-economic-sense-heres-why/




Quote:

But a $65 billion tax cut means a $65 billion decrease in our national budget and that has to be accounted for, either in cuts to expenditure (which really means government services like health, education and infrastructure) or increases in the budget deficit.




Quote:

Democrats want to impose a new tax on America’s wealthiest by taxing unrealized capital gains similar to other types of income— a major change to how those assets have been taxed historically.

Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, introduced legislation on Wednesday requiring taxpayers with more than $1 billion in assets or more than $100 million in annual income for three consecutive years to pay taxes on unrealized capital gains.

“There are two tax codes in America,” Wyden said in a statement on Wednesday. “The first is mandatory for workers who pay taxes out of every paycheck. The second is voluntary for billionaires who defer paying taxes for years, if not indefinitely.”

The so-called “Billionaires Income Tax” would apply to around 700 taxpayers and raise “hundreds of billions of dollars,” according to the proposal, which comes as Democrats discuss ways to fund their reconciliation package over the next decade

https://www.google.com/amp/s/au.finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/democrats-unveil-billionaires-tax-on-unrealized-capital-gains-131232669.html




Here's an opinion piece from Fisher investments.

Quote:

Plus, there are two simple reasons capital gains taxes have preferred rates. One is incentivizing long-term investment, which drives job creation. The other is to account for inflation, which can offset a large chunk of long-term returns. Preferential rates help people avoid taking inflation-adjusted losses on their investments, which would skew the risk/reward calculation.
https://www.fisherinvestments.com/en-us/marketminder/the-many-problems-with-taxing-unrealized-capital-gains ;




And here's a report from the US Tax Policy Centre.

Quote:

Do lower taxes on capital gains spur economic growth? By reducing the disincentive to invest, a lower capital gains tax rate might encourage more investment, leading to higher economic growth. Many factors determine growth, but the tax rate on capital gains does not appear to be a major factor, as evidenced in figure 1, which shows the top tax rates on long-term capital gains along with real economic growth from 1954 to 2019.

Capital gains may arise from risky investments, and a lower capital gains tax rate might encourage such risk taking. Even without a tax preference, taxing gains while allowing full current deductions for losses on a symmetric basis would reduce risk by reducing after-tax variance of returns. However, deductibility of losses is limited, which limits the risk-reduction benefit of capital gains taxation for some taxpayers. Under current law, taxpayers can use capital losses to offset capital gains and, for noncorporate taxpayers, up to $3,000 of additional taxable income other than capital gains. Noncorporate taxpayers also can carry any remaining capital losses forward to future years indefinitely.

It is true that inflation causes part of almost any nominal capital gain. But inflation actually affects the returns on currently taxed assets (interest, dividends, rents, and royalties) more than it affects capital gains, which are taxed when an asset is sold.

BENEFICIARIES OF A LOWER TAX RATE

Critics are correct that low tax rates on capital gains and dividends accrue disproportionately to the wealthy. The Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center estimates that in 2019, more than 75 percent of the tax benefit of the lower rates went to taxpayers with income over $1 million (table

Low tax rates on capital gains contribute to many tax shelters that undermine economic efficiency and growth. These shelters employ sophisticated financial techniques to convert ordinary income (such as wages and salaries) to capital gains. For top-bracket taxpayers, tax sheltering can save up to 17 cents per dollar of income sheltered. The resources that go into designing, implementing, and managing tax shelters could otherwise be used for productive purposes.

Finally, the low rate on capital gains complicates the tax system. A significant portion of tax law and regulations is devoted to policing the boundary between lightly taxed returns on capital assets and fully taxed ordinary income.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-effect-lower-tax-rate-capital-gains




Plenty of people that billionaires employ are on welfare.

Quote:

Millions of Americans work full time yet are still impoverished, their wages so low that they qualify for federal health care and food assistance programs even though many of them are employed by the biggest and most profitable U.S. companies.

Because those companies don’t pay their workers a living wage, taxpayers are forced to foot the bill for daily necessities those employees can’t afford to buy themselves.
In short, corporate America is pawning off the cost of rock-bottom wages on taxpayers.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-18/who-helps-pay-amazon-walmart-and-mcdonald-s-workers-you-do




It doesn't look like the countries that increased their minimum wage have collapsed yet, and a slow and measured increase appears to be best practice too.

Quote:

Many business leaders fear that any increase in the minimum wage will be passed on to consumers through price increases thereby slowing spending and economic growth, but that may not be the case.

New research shows that the pass-through effect on prices is fleeting and much smaller than previously thought.

In a new Upjohn Institute working paper, Daniel MacDonald and Eric Nilsson, of California State University, Bernardino, advance the literature on price effects of minimum wage increases.

Historically, minimum wage increases were large, one-shot changes imposed with little advance notice for businesses. But many recent state and city-level minimum wage increases have been scheduled to be implemented over time and often are indexed to some measure of price inflation. These small, scheduled minimum wage hikes seem to have smaller effects on prices than large, one-time increases.

By looking at changes in restaurant food pricing during the period of 1978–2015, MacDonald and Nilsson find that prices rose by just 0.36 percent for every 10 percent increase in the minimum wage, which is only about half the size reported in previous studies. They also observe that small minimum wage increases do not lead to higher prices and may actually reduce prices. Furthermore, it is also possible that small minimum wage increases could lead to increased employment in low-wage labor markets.

While federal and state minimum wage increases appear to produce similar results, more research is needed to fully grasp the effects of city minimum-wage raises.

https://www.upjohn.org/research-highlights/does-increasing-minimum-wage-lead-higher-prices




--------------------
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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27576658 - 12/10/21 09:11 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Firstly, what do CEO’s themselves say they’ll spend the tax cuts on? Good question. When the CEO’s of the Business Council’s 130+ member companies were asked in a secret Business Council of Australia survey to nominate one of four options as their preferred response to the company tax cut in Australia, only 17% nominated higher wages or more jobs. Over 80% selected either returning funds to shareholders, or more investment.




Sounds good to me.

And where on the political spectrum are you?

I'd say centre-left as you have ALP-esque ideals. It's generally fashionable to the young to have these ideals; even to the point of being radical Communists because that's the student culture in all universities and always has been. Take for example this poster plastered up all over the Australian National University in the Nation's capital, Canberra. This one was back in 2018. I recall much the same sorts of posters in the 1980's. It's always the same shill of Marxism. *yawn*




I could be wrong on where you are on the spectrum but that's not important. While you're tilting at windmills you could put that effort into working another job and putting the money into the market. Yes, the quiet achiever. You won't beat this situation because the wealthy hold all the chips and therefore all the power, so best you join it. There is plenty out there for to get your hands on if you choose to.

Go and look at this thread which is over 16 years old. There are Leftists in there crying about the same stuff you have. Now had they ceased their belly aching and invested over the said years they'd have improved their lot.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4176792

There will be in the years ahead the same lamenting across these boards because these drug boards attract an element of victimhood and rather than get on with a different approach they want to complain. I'm not impugning I'm just saying it as I see it. I don't see this view in the Motley Fool forums (per subscription services). Sure, some will lament if a share they have has done poorly. However on the whole they're optimists and have confidence in themselves and are happy to share and discuss stocks worthy of attention.

Success is an attitude and poverty is a choice. Personally I gave away Left-wing thinking by age 15 or 16 knowing there's no such thing as a free lunch, nor is there in nature. Every calorie competed for in food webs and all under the pump of selection pressure at both intra and inter-species level.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia] * 1
    #27576692 - 12/10/21 10:04 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The stock market doesn't reflect the real economy.

Quote:

Most times when people say “the stock market is not the economy,” they mean the day-to-day performance of major stock indices that track the value the nation’s biggest firms, like the S&P 500 and Dow Jones Industrial Average, bears little-to-no reflection on what’s happening in most Americans’ lives.

https://journalistsresource.org/home/stock-market-not-economy/




What do you think the difference is between Sweden and Venezuela?

Because I think it's important to be able to discuss policies without resorting to a strawman and exclaiming communism.

I'm doing moderately well for myself at the age I am, and I know the system is unlikely to change in any dramatic way any time soon, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in discussing the potential for change.

Opportunity is a catalyst and fortunately for Australians we have medicare so we're not eternally indebted for breaking a leg.

I mean sure there's no such thing as a free lunch, and neither are there free submarines, free roads, free infrastructure, free healthcare or free education :shrug:

But somehow we get them.:strokebeard: :pipesmoke:


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27576790 - 12/11/21 01:03 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think the difference is between Sweden and Venezuela?




It's a myth the Left push.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-op-us-democratic-socialists-dont-get-scandinavia-20181025-story.html

A modern conversation between a Republican and a Democrat about socialism will end with the Republican asking, “What about Venezuela, Nicaragua and the Soviet Union?” The Democrat responds, “What about Sweden, Denmark and Norway?” Unfortunately, very few Americans are aware of the drastic differences in policy. Scandinavian countries truly are exceptionally wealthy, but “democratic socialists” are being dishonest about their policies. Far from socialist, the Nordic countries are actually closer to true laissez-faire capitalism than the U.S., as reflected in the Heritage Foundation’s Economic Freedom Index, year after year.


Quote:

Because I think it's important to be able to discuss policies without resorting to a strawman and exclaiming communism.




Not at all as it show cases this Leftist ideal that has permeated throughout our universities and in turn poisoned the minds of many young graduates. Often hopelessly WOKE and full of victimhood and/or guilt because they subscribe to critical race theory. It's an idea that white people are wealthy because they're white rather than the graft they put in to get there. It makes POC believe they'll never get the same footing because the playing field is run by white supremacists. I've seen these aburd and emotive arguments on the boards and it plain hobbles people to not think individually and instead they absurdly think on identity. It's why so many on these boards are into defeatism.


Quote:

I'm doing moderately well for myself at the age I am, and I know the system is unlikely to change in any dramatic way any time soon, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in discussing the potential for change.




Well, once you build your nest egg you'll sigh in 20 years to have a 20-something expecting to get their hands on it, despite you legally applying tax minimisation strategies.


Quote:

Opportunity is a catalyst and fortunately for Australians we have medicare so we're not eternally indebted for breaking a leg.




Better to have private and aim to that.


Quote:

I mean sure there's no such thing as a free lunch, and neither are there free submarines, free roads, free infrastructure, free healthcare or free education :shrug:




Yes, nothing is for free but legal tax minimisation is above all legal.

I suggest you read this and apply this thinking going forward. Cease thinking you won't get ahead such as you won't buy a home in your 20's. You are not set by fate. Your decisions matter.

https://themakingofamillionaire.com/you-will-never-be-rich-if-you-keep-doing-these-10-things-8c9677bc06b0?gi=7674beeab719

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27577399 - 12/11/21 01:56 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Oz_Salvia said:
Stable Genius, this is your thread and a good call as an oasis in a US-centric sub-board.

Yes, even though we will likely not agree per little and even less you may see my posts in your bias as boorish but you will agree I've kept this at the top of the subforum page. Not that I'm asking favours. :tongue:

So all said and done get back at your convenience so I can undress your ALP-esque ideals. Always a good muse to give the failed Leftie element a backhand. After all only on these boards and other lamenting platforms of sore arse'ry are such seen as they're still bent out of shape the majority voted LNP. Such will happen again. :laugh:




Sorry I was busy crawling through a roof helping another urban hippy.

If you believe that the LNP or the ALP are completely wrong or completely right I don't believe we have anything to discuss. This left and right rubbish pushed by Sky News is turning our political debate toxic, they need their broadcasting licence cancelled imo. They don't broadcast News they broadcast vitriol and snide remarks, it's NOT news.

Also, here's a few examples of what I think.
I think Turnbull was a decent prime minister for a Liberal and always thought he should've joined the Labor Party.
I also blame Paul Keating for the housing crisis which has done so well for anyone who bought a house 30 years ago but has made home ownership a nightmare for anyone buying their first house.

And I wouldn't describe your post's as boorish, I can think of other descriptions :awesomenod: but hey, glad you found the thread and are interested in replying.

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27578037 - 12/11/21 09:36 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I also blame Paul Keating for the housing crisis which has done so well for anyone who bought a house 30 years ago but has made home ownership a nightmare for anyone buying their first house.




Let's review what bought that about and I agree with Howard on this because it's what happened in the 80's.

https://www.therealestateconversation.com.au/news/2016/05/20/look-1985-negative-gearing-impact-says-john-howard/1463741788

Former Prime Minister John Howard yesterday told 350 delegates at the First National Real Estate convention in Cairns he was intrigued that the national economic debate about negative gearing had made very little reference to the experience of its removal in 1985.

“When negative gearing was removed by then Treasurer Paul Keating in 1985, it was quietly brought back in the 1987 budget,” said Howard.

“The debate needs to focus on that piece of field evidence because the experiment with negative gearing was widely regarded as a failure. That’s more important than glossy economists reports," he said.

When negative gearing was removed in 1985, rents rose strongly.


Point is, no matter how loud the Greens get the government simply hasn't the resources to have a massive roll out of government housing to give renters a roof over their head, even it were at market value rent.

So the call back in the day was for the private sector to fill the gap by making the investment risk attractive by writing off interest rates occurred on the principle if the rent return is not profitable (known as negative gearing). They say the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions. So the rental crisis in the 80's was simply can kicked down the road for 30+ years.

Perhaps the best way to deal with negative gearing which we can't cease on investors who are already in on it, is to end it on all property unless they are new builds. This will encourage more new housing to ease the current rental crisis and get the construction industry booming; perhaps more jobs for the idle sparky to get in the roofs of the urban hippies. This is what negative gearing re-introduced in 1987 after it's 1985 hiatus should have been (if they were going to bother with it at all). Sadly it is what is.

What I can say in my 24 years of property ownership is input by the government to influence the market usually has deleterious impacts, such as first home grants. These quickly see to a greater demand at entry level property which in turn pushes up property prices because it's all dominos of knock on.

The winners are not the first home buyers; as the market climbs the real estate agents get greater commissions, the investment property owners see their unrealised property values rise including people like me who have property shares, not to mention State governments getting stamp duty taxes at the expense of the Federal coin.

Now I have seen several of these schemes peter out as fails make the said wealthier and the rest holding the bag, especially the first home buyers it was supposed to help.

So the schemes have tried to learn from past mistakes. Such as the current federal first home buyer's grant under the guise of GST exemption.

https://www.firsthome.gov.au/

And here in Queensland we have stamp duty exemption.

https://stampduty.calculatorsaustralia.com.au/stamp-duty-qld#:~:text=Do%20first%20home%20buyers%20pay,pay%20full%20stamp%20duty%20rates. ;

As a first home buyer you don't pay stamp duty for the property up to $500k (due to First Home Concession Rate). Then you get a discount for properties valued between $505,000 and $550,000. If property worth more than that you pay full stamp duty rates.

Now it's clear neither removing GST and Stamp Duty for first home buyers has dampened real estate values for first home buyers. Which again only reinforces my view that successive government market manipulations only hurt.

Yet rather than accept it there's this view that we need to tax heavily to afford public housing or hand over a bag of cash to first home buyers to get head. Well, go ahead, I'll continue to minimise my taxes because I'm not paying for it. I don't see why we need to further encourage generational welfare and sink-estates, nor push property prices up by even more taxes, be it direct new taxes or the loss of existing ones (i.e. GST and Stamp Duty).

In hindsight it would have been better to have a complete laissez faire approach in the 1980's. Sure, many would have found it tough to rent and given the Hawke/Keating 'recession we had to have' 17% interest rates, they'd have had to hold off until the mid-1990's to buy in.

And this is why I believe in the private market. It keeps the field pure.

Edited by Oz_Salvia (12/11/21 10:05 PM)

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27578209 - 12/12/21 02:36 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I'm glad you agree.

Something I find hilarious as well is that if it wasn't for the Greens there'd be next to zero investment in Renewable Energy.

Join me in thanking Bob Brown :cookiemonster:

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27578231 - 12/12/21 03:48 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I'm glad you agree.

Something I find hilarious as well is that if it wasn't for the Greens there'd be next to zero investment in Renewable Energy.

Join me in thanking Bob Brown :cookiemonster:




It's not the Greens who are making renewables happen it's the private sector. The same crowd the Greens would love to tax no end. Go look at the Greens policy on their "tax the billionaires" nonsense, where the money they're claiming they want to tax is unrealised paper value shares. :rolleyes: https://greens.org.au/tax-billionaires

Whose policy is making renewables happen? Yes, the LNP. :wink:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/australia-calls-for-foreign-investment-to-fund-its-clean-energy-target-20211114-p598sv.html

The government’s technology investment road map is expected to result in up to $20 billion being invested over the next 10 years, but the government is targeting $60 billion in investment from the private sector – much of it from overseas.

“Inbound investment into Australia is so crucial if we are to realise the potential business growth in these sectors,” Birmingham will tell the Milken Institute on Monday.
   


Also, you'll be conflicted over your idol Bob Brown, and soon will be reading this. :smirk:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/15/bob-brown-rebukes-tasmanian-windfarm-project-as-the-new-franklin-dam

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27578241 - 12/12/21 04:18 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

You guys are the only ones active on the political forum lately. If you don't mind, I would like to ask a couple questions. What political parties are the relevant ones in Australia? Do they usually have to form coalitions?

Another thing, I read about 4 years ago an article in Rolling Stone about Western Australia being an ecological disaster because they built it up and brought the water in from elsewhere, which sounded a lot like the Western U.S., probably more accurately South Western.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27578267 - 12/12/21 06:00 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

You seem to like sharing opinion pieces.

Quote:

The countries where socialism works best tend to have a hybrid system whereby socialism works hand in hand with capitalism. These countries often have a capitalist free-market economy combined with a strong state-funded welfare system. So, is a Sweden socialist country?

Sweden, like most of the other Scandinavian countries, follows the Nordic model of government, also known as “cuddly capitalism”! In reality this means that they are capitalist countries, but with strong publicly-funded services and good workers’ rights.

For example, Sweden has no minimum wage, so employers can pay their employees the market value for any job, which is typical of capitalist countries. However, the country does have a strong system of powerful unions, so that workers are protected and supported in their jobs.

This may seem like a contradiction, but it seems to work in the Nordic countries, which have strong economies and good public welfare systems.

https://www.routesnorth.com/sweden/is-sweden-a-socialist-country/




Critical race theory is essentially a history class taught in some universities. Talking about things like the border between Texas and Oklahoma.

Quote:

When Texas sought to enter the Union in 1845 as a slave state, federal law in the United States, based on the Missouri Compromise, prohibited slavery north of 36°30' parallel north. Under the Compromise of 1850, Texas surrendered its lands north of 36°30' latitude. The 170-mile strip of land, a "neutral strip", was left with no state or territorial ownership from 1850 until 1890. It was officially called the "Public Land Strip" and was commonly referred to as "No Man's Land."




Australia, America, and a variety of lands are permeated with a history of genocide and racism, in acknowledging history it doesn't mean people who aren't racist or perpetrating bigotry should feel bad about anything.

And a lot of white people made it on their own, a lot of white people also had slaves, heck even black people had slaves.

Some people are too woke on all this, it's a history lesson, not a grovel and apologise for something you didn't do session.

If in 20 years time the rules that worked in my day had changed, I'd be able to acknowledge that.

Universal healthcare is a good start. imo.

Quote:

Yes, nothing is for free but legal tax minimisation is above all legal.




Slavery used to be legal too, doesn't mean it's something that shouldn't be up for discussion to jump on the changing table.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27578705 - 12/12/21 01:19 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Seriously? Geeeez.

I said I FIND IT HILARIOUS that due to Bob Brown (and the general success of the Greens in the 90's) we saw a MASSIVE investment in renewable energy.
Personally I think he's a bit of a dick, and the Greens wouldn't be my first choice to govern(due to some of their crazy policies), nevertheless he got shit done.

Thanks Bob. Thanks for being such a huge pain in the arse for the major parties and holding a gun to the Labor party's collective head to form government and actually getting shit done. :super:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27578726 - 12/12/21 01:31 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
You guys are the only ones active on the political forum lately. If you don't mind, I would like to ask a couple questions. What political parties are the relevant ones in Australia? Do they usually have to form coalitions?





Labor Party - workers party
Liberal Party - conservatives and people that think they're better than everyone else party
National Party - farming party morphing into a coal mining party... weird... usually the minor party in a coalition government with the Liberals hence the LNP.
Greens - almost as big as the Nationals in the 90's but they still won't legalise pot :grrr:
One Nation - racist cunt party fast gaining in popularity.
Other assorted odd ball parties... Bob Katter is my favourite.






Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Another thing, I read about 4 years ago an article in Rolling Stone about Western Australia being an ecological disaster because they built it up and brought the water in from elsewhere, which sounded a lot like the Western U.S., probably more accurately South Western.




Western Australia mmmmmm they don't like us :lol: I'm serious they don't like anyone from the eastern states so I dare not answer for them :lol: but I do know their land clearing practise after WW2(soldiers were given a cheap plot) ruined a lot of land.

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27579173 - 12/12/21 07:45 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

In regards to Sweden and socialism pitch.

https://www.cato.org/policy-report/january/february-2020/swedens-lessons-america

There is just one problem: Sweden is not socialist.

If Sanders and Ocasio‐Cortez really want to turn America into Sweden, what would that look like? For the United States, it would mean, for example, more free trade and a more deregulated product market, no Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and the abolition of occupational licensing and minimum wage laws. The United States would also have to abolish taxes on property, gifts, and inheritance. And even after the recent tax cut, America would still have to slightly reduce its corporate tax. Americans would need to reform Social Security from defined benefits to defined contributions and introduce private accounts. They would also need to adopt a comprehensive school voucher system where private schools get the same per‐pupil funding as public ones.



All up if you think Sweden is a great Socialist paradise then head off there. No one is stopping you.


Quote:

Critical race theory is essentially a history class taught in some universities. Talking about things like the border between Texas and Oklahoma.




It's a huge waste of time to clutter one's head with that nonsense. It's divisive as it measures people on their identity not individuality.

Reminds me of the lyrics of the British Neo-Nazi band Screwdriver's 'Showdown': "the colour of your uniform is the colour of your skin"; yet that's also the BLM/AntiFa mantra with the same identity thinking hence this absurdity (lifted else where on this sub-board). :rolleyes:

We live in a white supremacist patriarchy so no you aren’t wrong, but it’s not like other groups have some explicit opposition to war and capitalism. It’s Plato’s Cave for most people, theyve lived in the “war and capitalism” box their entire lives and can’t fathom a system outside that. Even the millennials who swear that half of them love socialism only mean that they want the social safety net expanded.

Or one could reject both of the extremist nonsense and think individually and succeed. :cool:


Quote:

Australia, America, and a variety of lands are permeated with a history of genocide and racism, in acknowledging history it doesn't mean people who aren't racist or perpetrating bigotry should feel bad about anything.




Well, no guilt. I live in a white enclave and prefer it. I chose it. I did my own research per spatial demographics. Safer community and few rentals and too pricey for riff-raff. All owner occupied and many well heeled. Low crime rates. Ticks the bucket list of a more likely safe place to age. That's realism.


Quote:

And a lot of white people made it on their own, a lot of white people also had slaves, heck even black people had slaves.




Whites had slaves long ago where none are alive today nor are the slaves they had. Time to move on.

Blacks still have them but that's conveniently airbrushed https://qz.com/africa/1333946/global-slavery-index-africa-has-the-highest-rate-of-modern-day-slavery-in-the-world/


Quote:

Some people are too woke on all this, it's a history lesson, not a grovel and apologise for something you didn't do session.




It's definitely part of the victimhood Olympics of the Left. To be more a loser is exalted. To blame one's lot on everyone else is accepted.


Quote:

If in 20 years time the rules that worked in my day had changed, I'd be able to acknowledge that.




You're assuming two things over the next 20 years: 1.) that the change you want will come, which is less likely given the real change has seen the gap between the "have" and "have not" widen, not just in Australia but across the world (and this momentum will only increase); and 2.) that your political thinking will remain static.

Now what's going for you is you're in your early years. You can jump on board and give all that Leftie idealism the boot. I gave you a link to go read and think for yourself in getting ahead. Get selfish and get real. That's how it is. No one will come save you unless you do yourself. For the old fart Lefties on these boards who have never got ahead because of bitter indolence they're stuffed. Could care less for them.


Quote:

Universal healthcare is a good start. imo.




It's inevitable in the years forward it will implode in costs and private will be the only means. Ask yourself, are you going to be in a position to brace that?


Quote:

Slavery used to be legal too, doesn't mean it's something that shouldn't be up for discussion to jump on the changing table.




So you equate my tax minimisation to being the same as slavery. Interesting.

I guess being white, male, hetero, middle aged, got some mils, then I'm part of that hated bourgeoise class. I can hear the cart wheels of a tumbril in your imagination taking me to the gallows of the peoples' court for your glorious revolution. :lol:

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27579269 - 12/12/21 08:41 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I said I FIND IT HILARIOUS that due to Bob Brown (and the general success of the Greens in the 90's) we saw a MASSIVE investment in renewable energy.




The Greens became a household word because of the stopping of the Franklin River Dam; a dam which would have added to the hydo-electric generation of Tasmania which feeds the NEM by a Bass Strait interconnector. So that's a counter-argument then and there.

You should also appreciate rewnewables were far more expensive in the 1990's than they have become in recent years as the experience curve was yet to be realised. It was the private sector investment which did this. The Greens in the 1990's were small party, a good deal smaller than the ~10% of the electorate they are now and back then were an environmental party. These days they've become a Leftist party having robbed the ALP of their more radical leftist supporters. So how and why do you erroneously think they had the political clout back then that they have now by swaying the ALP of today? Spare me revisionism.

More formatively, it was not the Greens which bought about the change in emissions thinking, it was actually John Howard who did with his Australian Greenhouse Office - a world first to monitor by LandSat imagery landuse change for emissions, coupled with other metrics on other GHG sources. I know because I worked in this federally!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Greenhouse_Office

The Australian Greenhouse Office (AGO) was formed in 1998 within the Government of Australia as a stand-alone agency within the environment portfolio to provide a whole of government approach to greenhouse matters. It was the world's first government agency dedicated to cutting greenhouse gas emissions, managed Australia's response to climate change, and provided government-sanctioned information to the public.

Yes, this is what changed the mindsets to think of reducing emissions. You have to first empirically measure them to realise them to accept them and then craft policy to mitigate them. Other than landuse change the greatest emitter is electrical generation. I can assure you these numbers per the NIR and for years now have been and are submitted to the IPPC.


Quote:

Personally I think he's a bit of a dick, and the Greens wouldn't be my first choice to govern(due to some of their crazy policies), nevertheless he got shit done.




It wasn't renewables that he got moving. It was a revitalised sense of environmentalism that came about by stopping the Franklin River Dam. Give credit where it is due. Sadly the Greens party lost its way on environmentalism and has become a radical Leftist rabble.


Quote:

Thanks Bob. Thanks for being such a huge pain in the arse for the major parties and holding a gun to the Labor party's collective head to form government and actually getting shit done. :super:




Thanks Bob, for your "Convoy of No-Confidence" that swung Queensland to vote in ScoMo, so my franked shares remain untaxed nor have I been slugged an extra 25% on equities CGT. Bet Shorten just loves good ol'Bob. :lol:

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27579344 - 12/12/21 09:38 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Labor Party - workers party




Yet the tradies being the workers being the proletariats mostly vote the LNP because they like the dough they make and the property they can buy with negative gearing.

The ALP supporters are mostly government employees (public servants), unionists, numerous uni students, WOKE'ists, and inner-city progressives known as hipsters. These arts degree'ed sorts have been mind poisoned on Marxism to see themselves as the intelligentsia, yet generally earn a good deal less than the proletariats they despise whom they call bogans. Bitter grapes.


Quote:

Liberal Party - conservatives and people that think they're better than everyone else party




It's the party for people who want to work hard, save, invest and leave a Will to whom they please without unfair taxes to rob their endeavour. Their Liberal name is not to be confused with liberals in the US who are socialists. It's Liberal as in lasse fair.


Quote:

National Party - farming party morphing into a coal mining party... weird... usually the minor party in a coalition government with the Liberals hence the LNP.




They're still a farmers' party and farmers believe in owning property and private enterprise (hence their commonality with the Liberal Party). The coal issue is one of jobs in regional areas which saw the ALP Shorten lose his bid at the previous Federal election because he followed the Greens charter. That was fk'n poetry on election night. :thumbup:


Quote:

Greens - almost as big as the Nationals in the 90's but they still won't legalise pot :grrr:




Pot should not be legalised until a robust method to determine driver impairment intoxication and not just trace. I don't want stoned drivers on the road any more than drunks but I don't want people who smoke pot on the weekend to get done on Monday.


Quote:

One Nation - racist cunt party fast gaining in popularity.




Fast gaining because of the preachy Leftist views that they're racists. Everyone is fed up with the WOKE fuck'tards pushing endless guilt bollocks.


Quote:

Other assorted odd ball parties... Bob Katter is my favourite.




I like Clive Palmer's United Party, partly because he's a billionaire and successful. It means he can't be bought like the other politicians as why would he want a brown paper bag?

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27579383 - 12/12/21 10:13 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Another thing, I read about 4 years ago an article in Rolling Stone about Western Australia being an ecological disaster because they built it up and brought the water in from elsewhere, which sounded a lot like the Western U.S., probably more accurately South Western.




Perth being the main population centre of WA is on aquifer water and the 101 of that is if it doesn't recharge in a commensurate rate to withdrawal it will run out.

It's not like the rainfall is increasing the recharge to meet population ad economic user growth. So it's evitable they will run out unless a multi-facet approach of recycled water and sea water desal in applied.

They have massive PV potential that can power desal and pump vast volumes of water. They can even wrap that project of PV into a high voltage DC interconnector to sell power to the lucrative east coast of Australia. Being a continent there are 3 hours difference in time so Sydney before dawn for example can be powered on WA sunshine. Conversely WA evening and into the night a/c can be powered on Eastern Australian sunshine. These are peak times for power use and the most profit to be had.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27579491 - 12/13/21 01:42 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Sweden has capitalist elements and strong social welfare, cuddly capitalism as it's referred to.

The strong social welfare and capitalist elements are what makes the difference between Venezuela and Sweden. Yes capitalism has its role to play, but just as important are strong social welfare programs.

Strong social welfare is also a big difference between Sweden and the US. With Australia we have decent social welfare.

It's not required to take every legislation from Sweden, even one at a time, sometimes it might seem counter intuitive to even have welfare due to costs. In the long run though, the costs of doing something like housing homeless people is more cost effective than having them go though the medical and policing system that overall can cost more.

Quote:

Some early research on this produced truly mind-boggling results like a Central Florida Commission on Homelessness study indicating that the region was spending about triple on policing homeless people’s nonviolent rule-breaking as it would cost to get each homeless person a house and a caseworker. More recent, somewhat more careful studies, were a bit less enthusiastic about the cost-saving potential but still highly positive.

A 2017 RAND Corporation analysis of the Housing for Health program in LA County concluded that the county saved about 20 percent by putting people with complex mental health issues in supportive housing rather than relying on law enforcement and emergency room visits.

A 2015 randomized control trial of a housing-first approach across several Canadian cities saw essentially no change in money spent (Canada’s structurally lower health care costs are likely a factor here) but gains in quality of life and community functioning.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/5/30/5764096/homeless-shelter-housing-help-solutions





War and capitalism go together like bread and butter.

There's a history of racism in numerous countries, if you're not racist, who cares!!

My assumption is that in 20 years, if the rules change to make it harder for those people, I'd be able to acknowledge it.

I get the point that you've really got to rely on yourself in life and do things that benefit you in the end.

Quote:

It's inevitable in the years forward it will implode in costs and private will be the only means. Ask yourself, are you going to be in a position to brace that?




Yeah. But who says it's going to implode? I see a lot of services are on the chopping board, several hundred in fact.

I equate something being legal not meaning it is not an apt candidate to be changed. My comment on the fact of something being legal not meaning it shouldn't be changed seemed to miss.

I am 'CIS' and I detest the over complication of labels.


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27579520 - 12/13/21 03:05 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Taxes are greater in the US than in Sweden.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Sweden/United-States/Economy/Tax/Components-of-taxation

Quote:

War and capitalism go together like bread and butter.




Doesn't hold up when viewed through the Communist era who had one third of the world in a totalitarian grip because they waged wars of aggression to expand their control. In the end it cost the Soviet Union in the graveyard of empires. I'm old enough to remember the height of the Cold War. Your memory would have started around 911. None the less we still have North Korea and the CCP. The story hasn't finished with Marxism because it is based on political violence by revolution (civil war).

Quote:

I get the point that you've really got to rely on yourself in life and do things that benefit you in the end.




Yep, so minimise tax however you can and legally and don't be guilted by WOKE'ery that it's on par to slavery or some other hysteria. If you have a circle of friends like that, fire them, and associate with success-minded individuals. You want to associate with people who think for themselves not wanting to be cool by being seen as a good-hearted Leftie.

Quote:

Yeah. But who says it's going to implode? I see a lot of services are on the chopping board, several hundred in fact.




Welfare alone is 180-bil a year. I don't see that surviving as we go forward nor do I see a lot of the social experiments working out including free medical. You are aware of the limits to growth? Even I'll have to change my investment thesis. The good days will come to an end.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/climate-change/563497-mit-predicted-society-would-collapse-by-2040

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27579988 - 12/13/21 12:25 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Is this Bronwyn Bishop? This ruling class arrogance towards the peasants reminds me of her.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27580102 - 12/13/21 02:24 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I support elements of Sweden's strong social welfare program, that said, some of them I certainly do not.

Paying higher in taxes seems to be a godsend if you have children because you get value for your money on parental leave and childcare which can often cost enough to make one partner a stay at home parent.

Education and healthcare are important, and everyone regardless of children benefits.

The US is militarily engaged in 6 countries, none of which are communist.

You are fire :lol:
Something being legal doesn't mean it has to or should be.

It sounds to me like you think a wealth tax is a communist ideal.

It can cost more to let people get injured, be unable to pay their debt and remove them from contributing to the economy as a whole.

I think we're pretty aware of how climate change is looming over us. Even water scarcity could collapse societies.

But if it's going to be healthcare that does the deed, it'd be nice to see it in print.


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27580447 - 12/13/21 07:48 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Is this Bronwyn Bishop? This ruling class arrogance towards the peasants reminds me of her.




Is this the best you have, a veiled ad hominem, as an argument, when I've thoroughly beaten every nonsense you have posted?

Your claim your mate Bob Brown kicked off renewables in Australia in the 1990's is totally false, and I've already shown you he has stopped large renewable plants. So go on, double down and demonstrably show your pal was the maestro per your claim in the 90's. :lol:

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27580482 - 12/13/21 08:21 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Something being legal doesn't mean it has to or should be.





The rest of what you have posted could bang on backwards and forwards no end and it's barely even Australian in politics. Though I will say it's not my responsibility to look after others' sprogs if they have them. They enjoyed the fucks so they can fuck off. Same as paying for a roof over their head. That's their responsibility.

Now what is relevant, however, is the divide on the view of paying taxes.

I'm a firm believer in minimising taxes and so are all people who want to get ahead. So much so there's an entire investment class who do, which is why Scott Phillips of Motley Fool wrote this article years back on "How I’m beating the tax man — and you can too…"; and in it he quoted Kerry Packer - legend material. Yes, very much promoting franked shares; the very investment vehicle the Leftist ALP with Shorten wanted to tax (and he lost :laugh2:)

https://www.fool.com.au/2014/06/03/how-im-beating-the-tax-man-and-you-can-too/

Point is you can get all indignant, stamp your feet, pound your chest, strut up Swanson St or Pitt St with a Socialist flag while wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt crying out about the injustice of it all; or you can just get on with your own shit.  :goodluck: 

It's that simple.

It's not my job to sway you and for you to see the reality. That's your call.

What is fact is there are fellahs your age already on their way to mils. They're not wasting time. I already pointed you to a thread on this sub-board where losers whined 16 years ago and nothing changed to how they wanted it. The wealthy instead simply got wealthier. That's how it will go to the very end, because as Warren Buffet said: “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”


Quote:

I think we're pretty aware of how climate change is looming over us. Even water scarcity could collapse societies.




And when times get grim who do you think can afford the best seats? Not the piss ant socialist student sorts waving their XR-flags, because in any language they're screwed - they're urban losers who have no idea how to grow diddly or can set up off-grid. Instead, getting yourself into a position offering buffer and learn new practical skills is the best path. To do that you need capital. :rockon:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27581731 - 12/14/21 11:31 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Talking about taxes is a universal issue.

I mostly want accountability on govermnent finances including donations. When a corporation or individual makes a large donation to a politician or party, I would like to have decent transparency on that.

There's no harm in talking about change.

Saving money and investing is a good way to make money, and it takes a lot of dedication and patience, I get that, it's a way to get a foot up in the world.

I'm not a fan of bribery.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27581933 - 12/15/21 04:41 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Oz_Salvia said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Is this Bronwyn Bishop? This ruling class arrogance towards the peasants reminds me of her.




Is this the best you have, a veiled ad hominem, as an argument, when I've thoroughly beaten every nonsense you have posted?

Your claim your mate Bob Brown kicked off renewables in Australia in the 1990's is totally false, and I've already shown you he has stopped large renewable plants. So go on, double down and demonstrably show your pal was the maestro per your claim in the 90's. :lol:




I'll be happy when they start taxing people like yourself at a higher rate, mainly because I feel you deserve it, which I why I voted for it last election. I called it the "I've done fuck all to earn my money tax" I wish Bill had got that one over the line.

How's that for a political point?

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27581947 - 12/15/21 05:03 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:

I'll be happy when they start taxing people like yourself at a higher rate, mainly because I feel you deserve it, which I why I voted for it last election. I called it the "I've done fuck all to earn my money tax" I wish Bill had got that one over the line.

How's that for a political point?




Haha, very bitter grapes of the politics of envy. :lol:

Your good mate Bill lost and with that your ship sailed on seeing me pay a cent more than I already don't! Yep, Albo is not going to continue that loser policy of taxing franked dividends.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-02/albanese-attacks-morrison-dumps-franking-credits-policy-election/13027630

"I can confirm that Labor has heard that message clearly and that we will not be taking any changes to franking credits to the next election," Mr Albanese said.

Yep, same taxes and no changes to what the LNP has done. :wink:

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/labor-dumps-negative-gearing-backs-tax-cuts-20210726-p58cxs.html

In a strategy to focus the next election on the government’s response to the coronavirus pandemic, Mr Albanese said a Labor government would deliver the same legislated tax relief to more than 9 million Australians who earn over $45,000 as the Coalition. He said by doing so, Labor was providing “certainty and clarity” to Australian families.

Yep, no CGT and negative gearing changes. Australians don't want your loser Bill mate's taxes. :tongue2:

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/labor-to-dump-bill-shorten-s-negative-gearing-and-capital-gains-policies-20210211-p571qw.html

Labor is expected to dump Bill Shorten’s negative gearing and capital gains tax policies, but remains undecided on how best to tackle housing affordability.

"I've done fuck all to earn my money tax" - pure schadenfreude for me. :dancer:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27582752 - 12/15/21 04:40 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

No comment on accountability :wink:


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27582912 - 12/15/21 07:12 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Are you okay with corporate subsidies and bailouts?


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27583084 - 12/15/21 10:33 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Are you okay with corporate subsidies and bailouts?




Let's keep this to an Australian example and of recent times being Virgin Airlines (VA); or we'll get bogged down in the GFC bail outs of Wall St by Main St which is US politics/markets (despite the Left having no problems with bailouts when Rudd did that blowing the dough Howard left in the pantry).

That said, I agree with these 7 reasons on why VA should have been left to collapse (per link). Basically it's not the Government's responsibility to bail out weak corporations with poor P/E results esp. if that has gone on years as it did with VA. Nor was it of systemic importance. Basically free market should dictate survival and Black Swans happen. If one can't invest/manage with that in mind they may as well give up being a CEO and/or an investor.

https://www.unsw.edu.au/news/2020/04/7-reasons-why-a-government-bailout-is-not-possible-for-virgin-au

I'll now cite another Australian example, one that's not a bail out but instead a subsidy by way of grants, being the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA).

Now one would be hard pressed to find a Leftie against ARENA when they have and for years been funding start-ups and new renewable energy technologies from the public purse. Where the Lefties get upset is when this same vehicle is driven by LNP to fund their pet projects. Yet to me in makes no real difference as it's federal coin spent manipulating the energy market.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/arena-to-get-1-4-billion-as-coalition-channels-funds-to-ccs-hydrogen-and-pubs-20675/

ARENA – which is now nearly exhausted of funds, and had its board recently stacked with Coalition favourites – is to be given “guaranteed baseline funding” of $1.427 billion over the next 10 years, and will be given extra allocations in the annual budget. For 2020/21, that will amount to $191 million.

This is part of a $1.9 billion package to the two green funds that will include money for CCS, a regional hydrogen hub, along with many of the project identified by a group led by former Origin Energy CEO Grant King, and even some money for pubs to upgrade their refrigeration systems.



My personal view on subsidies, grants, bailouts, new taxes and so on, per government manipulation of the markets, never works out. Free market interference creates an uneven playing field as it is zero sum: some win at the others' expense and political cronyism can play a big hand in such favouritism. What's more, such "free money" is always squirreled away by the better at slight of hand than the government who never earned it. This leads to corruption. Recall the 4-billion the ALP blew on the insulation scheme? No checks and balances yet invoices were paid on insulating entire high density complexes which didn't exist on blank blocks of land!

We know this recipe fails and endlessly; just look at the attempts to "fix" the current property crisis. One of the latest hair brain schemes is to allow first home buyers to dip into their super. It will kick the can down the road with no appreciable improvement because the extra demand by an increase of new buyers will simply widen the market gap the policy absurdly tried to close. The rub gets worse as these same people it was supposed to have helped will instead radically reduce their future nest egg.

https://www.afr.com/policy/tax-and-super/super-for-housing-would-send-prices-soaring-20211214-p59hhc

Allowing first-time property buyers to divert $60,000 or more from superannuation would increase home ownership rates but would send house prices soaring, new modelling shows.

Such a scheme, which has been pushed by Liberal MPs, would add nearly $69,000 to the price of the average house in Sydney, $108,000 in Melbourne and $159,000 in Adelaide, according to a report commissioned by The McKell Institute.


All I want is a Lassie Fair market economy and that's what Packer said back in 1991 when he suggested the bureaucrats repeal a regulation when they bring in a new one. Otherwise we'll have piles of laws no one understands and we're not better off for it. I gave the video link of his wisdom earlier in this thread. But it is what it is with continuous market interference trying to correct problems created by previous correction attempts.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27583252 - 12/16/21 04:15 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Is this Bronwyn Bishop? This ruling class arrogance towards the peasants reminds me of her.




He's not even ruling class, he merely has a bit of money.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: viktor]
    #27583682 - 12/16/21 12:38 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

... yet can't understand why not many people want to listen and or agree?

Proving money can't buy everything.

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27584254 - 12/16/21 09:57 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:

Proving money can't buy everything.




Money won't buy happiness but poverty is misery.

Also it's not me who wants to take what's yours where as you'd like to on me.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia] * 1
    #27584413 - 12/17/21 03:27 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Nah, the main difference between you and me is that I couldn't care less if the value of my house was halved, as long as it meant the current generation of first home buyers got to own one.

Home ownership shouldn't be such a struggle. We don't need rich people thinking that flipping houses
with dad's money is a noble way to earn a dollar, it's not, it's ugly and vulgar and completely obnoxious.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27584429 - 12/17/21 04:37 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nah, the main difference between you and me is that I couldn't care less if the value of my house was halved, as long as it meant the current generation of first home buyers got to own one.




Fools rush in on assumptions. You think I've made my money off property?

I do have some property shares per construction (funny that, that's the scene you're in i.e. electrician); but the main sum is across other sectors: such as retail, technology, banking/finance, mining, agriculture, medical, foreign exchange and precious metals. My investments generally grow businesses and that employs people (I have covered how that rolls in this thread). So go check your Super and what it is made up of? It will be across a broad range of sectors and should be to manage risk. Do you trash talk others whose folios are like or similar to yours? Difference is I manage mine.

Aside the roof over my head I own that's it. I'm an equities investor and always have been. Equities outclass property and that's a fact but they take a good deal more understanding than just buying bricks and mortar with a hold view.

If property takes a serious dip so be it. I doubt it will. At best it will correct by moving sideways until the next leg up.

Your virtue-signalling about caring zero if property halves is hollow because: 1.) it won't happen; and 2.) it's no actual loss to you. So you can talk shit to big note, yes. You might even get your leg over with some of them here who believe it.

:yes:


Quote:

Home ownership shouldn't be such a struggle. We don't need rich people thinking that flipping houses
with dad's money is a noble way to earn a dollar, it's not, it's ugly and vulgar and completely obnoxious.




Okay, cite where I have said I do that?

FYI I grew up with little and collected cans as a kid to make a dollar. I knew from a young age the value of a dollar. If you go back in this thread I was asked if I had inheritance. It's all in this thread being the one you created and seem to have lost track of. I'll save you the time, I got to where I did by my own graft.

And worth repeating to get this straight: where you wanted to get your hands on what I have was your vote to Shorten, a radical fuckwit, to unleash a double-dip tax on franked dividends. He rightfully lost that federal because it was an attack on the retired. Deal with it.

:docbrown:

Bill Shorten the 'most dangerous left wing leader in generations', says Malcolm Turnbull

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/bill-shorten-the-most-dangerous-left-wing-leader-in-generations-says-malcolm-turnbull-20170812-gxuug0.html

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: viktor]
    #27584443 - 12/17/21 05:31 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Is this Bronwyn Bishop? This ruling class arrogance towards the peasants reminds me of her.




He's not even ruling class, he merely has a bit of money.




The sledges go on. :rolleyes: Still unemployed, on the weed and leaning on the system? Hopefully not. It's why I minimise taxes as I don't see much value in supporting dole bludgers. Please stay in NZ as we have way too many on the purse kiwis in Oz. If you want to have happiness fund it yourself.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23099383#23099383

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27586178 - 12/18/21 12:50 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oz_Salvia said:
It's all in this thread being the one you created and seem to have lost track of. I'll save you the time, I got to where I did by my own graft.

And worth repeating to get this straight: where you wanted to get your hands on what I have was your vote to Shorten, a radical fuckwit, to unleash a double-dip tax on franked dividends. He rightfully lost that federal because it was an attack on the retired. Deal with it.






Some of us out here in 'the public' don't view that tax as double dipping.

If the dividends are taxed and the investors get to claim the money back then the scheme is tax free.

A lot of us don't think that's fair, especially when we are talking about private retirement incomes of around 50 grand a year plus whatever is left of the pension.

Like geeez do you lot want the shirt off our backs as well?

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27586219 - 12/18/21 01:30 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oz_Salvia said:
Your virtue-signalling about caring zero if property halves is hollow because: 1.) it won't happen; and 2.) it's no actual loss to you. So you can talk shit to big note, yes. You might even get your leg over with some of them here who believe it.

:yes:






Like I don't know where to even start :nonono:

But thanks for dropping by and offering a glimpse of right wing Australian politics.  :super:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27586754 - 12/18/21 10:40 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:

Some of us out here in 'the public' don't view that tax as double dipping.

If the dividends are taxed and the investors get to claim the money back then the scheme is tax free.

A lot of us don't think that's fair, especially when we are talking about private retirement incomes of around 50 grand a year plus whatever is left of the pension.

Like geeez do you lot want the shirt off our backs as well?





It is double-dipping.

Tax has already been paid by the company of which you as a shareholder are part of. It would be like running a business as a mechanic and paying tax on the business and then what's left you get taxed again as so called "income tax". Wouldn't take a genius to see small business vanish over night on that policy. So I can tell you've never invested because this is basic 101.


https://www.fool.com.au/definitions/franking-credits/

Why do we have franking credits in Australia?

Franking credits were introduced to solve the sticky problem of investors being taxed twice on dividends. This happens because companies pay tax on any profit they earn before paying dividends to investors. Investors need to declare this dividend as income, which then gets taxed again at the investor’s personal tax rate. This is known as double taxation.

Understandably, most shareholders don't like the idea of being taxed twice on the same income. It is also a big deterrent to companies paying out profits as dividends.




As for your spiel: "a lot of us don't think that's fair"; well tough fk'n shit. Queue the small violins of butt-hurtness.

Your Leftie side lost the federal and needless to say Albo has no plans bringing this double-dip crap back. He knows full well the Australian public are centre-right given the majority of governance since WW2 has been conservative. The Shorten experiment foolishly tested that and Albo won't repeat it. In our post-COVID recovery we need to incentivise our economy not malaise with bullshit taxes driving the investment community to take their capital else where.

I should also add you wanted Shorten to not just double-tax franked dividends, you also cheered on his planned 25% increase CGT on equities - both would have hurt me and the rest of the investment community, managed funds, super, company growth ect. So it's not me who's out to take the shirt off your back, it's the grubby thievery of the Left'ard that does. So cease projecting!

And btw there's absolutely nothing wrong with the self-funded retirees who have over decades built a nest egg on which they can draw an income of franked dividends in their retired years. If they can sustainably withdrawal 50k a year or better that's great where they can treat their grandkids. Congratulations to them. This also means less erosion on the folio by not having to sell their stocks thereby retaining their base. FYI, my aim with wife and on target is to have near tax free 200k a year in perpetuity with a 3% CPI once I reach preservation.

In Australia and 100% legal and when these oldies eventually pop their clogs, their Beneficiaries in the Will will get the folio 100% free of death taxes; because the Beneficiaries will only pay CGT gained from the time of death to when they receive at probate. Better if they just keep the folio rolling on infinitum without selling and then they can ride it like gramps did for decades to come. Neat.

It's what my niece will get from the proverbial "rich uncle". I'll have it structured where she will get a payment every four weeks at 3% CPI and in perpetuity. It will be set as a Trust where her children can minimise income taxes up to $18,200 each if the Will were to happen whilst they are children. If my niece dies before or after the Will the surviving Beneficiaries will get a proportional increase. That's how you help out your own d00d. I certainly won't be sharing it with moocher-randoms per Leftie taxes!


Quote:

But thanks for dropping by and offering a glimpse of right wing Australian politics.  :super:




Well, this is a druggie board and 28% are addicts (according to this long running 17 year so far poll).

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3133673

So there'll be no end of victim-hood here as the theme. The pleas, cries, gnashing of teeth that their plights can only be helped if all the rich cunts are taxed to oblivion. That's the sub-culture echo chamber seen here. It's not like that in the real world as your said "glimpse of right wing Australian politics" is actually the mainstream, given the LNP (the conservatives) are currently the majority federal government. That I can thumbs up! :super:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27586863 - 12/19/21 02:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Other companies would replace VA.

There are subsidies for renewables, I suppose one might put up note that when providing subsidies for coal it's like feeding a dying horse.

I suppose this brings in to question monopolies, in a free market free of regulation or oversight, it's easy to buy out the competition and price gouge to desire.

With an accountability campaign I don't think the stereotypical political cronyism we're so used to would play as big a role in the minds of voters.

I don't think private sectors are any better in the realm of transparency.

I remember Trump said he'd repeal 2 regulations for every new one, but I don't see how that's inherently a good thing seeing as there is context behind each regulation and it seems a careless at best idea imo.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia] * 1
    #27586871 - 12/19/21 02:51 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

That's bullshit and you know it. It's the same lie Morrison used :facepalm3:

Quote:

Franking credits were originally introduced under the Keating government to eliminate double-taxation on company profits.

Shareholders who were paying income tax were given money back from the tax office to compensate them for the fact their dividends were being taxed twice.

The Howard government then extended the scheme so shareholders who were paying no income tax — mostly retirees — could also get a cash-back from the tax office.

This is the change Mr Shorten has promised to unwind if Labor wins the election.




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-01/bill-shorten-franking-credits-scott-morrison-federal-election/11064898?nw=0&r=HtmlFragment

As for the rest of your post/s man you're just plain nasty.

Go smoke some weed and chill the fuck out :thumbdown:

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27587762 - 12/19/21 08:40 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
That's bullshit and you know it. It's the same lie Morrison used :facepalm3:

Quote:

Franking credits were originally introduced under the Keating government to eliminate double-taxation on company profits.

Shareholders who were paying income tax were given money back from the tax office to compensate them for the fact their dividends were being taxed twice.

The Howard government then extended the scheme so shareholders who were paying no income tax — mostly retirees — could also get a cash-back from the tax office.

This is the change Mr Shorten has promised to unwind if Labor wins the election.




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-01/bill-shorten-franking-credits-scott-morrison-federal-election/11064898?nw=0&r=HtmlFragment

As for the rest of your post/s man you're just plain nasty.

Go smoke some weed and chill the fuck out :thumbdown:





So you're going to go by what the ABC says, eh. The Australian Bolshevik Commissars of misinformation.

The Howard government then extended the scheme so shareholders who were paying no income tax — mostly retirees — could also get a cash-back from the tax office.




I will now school you again (as I have in every post to you so far).

The truth is you can have a million dollar income or a zero dollar income and still get franked shares of value deposited into your bank account. Why is this a problem when the company paid tax?? It's not a magic pudding, actual wealth was created, tax paid, and you paid tax per being part of that company as a shareholder. Show me where it came out of the ATO's pocket and therefore came from your taxes, go on! Newz flash fer ya, it was never in the ATO's pocket! It was never yours. It was the shareholders who own it.

An ASX listed company pays a flat 30%  which is a good deal less than Australian workers do in tax. That's not greed, that's opportunity, because less tax means you may be able go get your hands in on some action.

Now to keep this round let's say one has 10-thousand shares in a company paying 30% tax and just so happens they do franked dividends. The company pays their 30% tax and from profits they offer 10 cents as a franked dividend per share; yep you get a tidy $1,000 deposited to your bank account. All of it tax free because the company paid their 30% tax (this has to said again, and again, as you're struggling on this).

It's not hard to grasp.

Around one third of Australians directly own shares, the rest do per Super (which is mandatory per employment) and many SMSF. To change the rules as you want back to double-taxes is plain Communist, Shorten-short-change, bullshit. Ain't gonna happen and even the ALP has abandoned it; so you can get indignant, stamp your feet, pound your chest, strut up Swanson or Pitt St with your Che Guevara T-shirt and CEMFU flag, howling about how unfair it all is, but that won't change diddly shit. The tribe has spoken.

So yes, how about you chill out and accept this. :chillpill:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27587820 - 12/19/21 09:59 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Coal, other than coking coal, is ultimately dead because the LCOE of it can't compete with renewables which continue to lower in price.

There are many reasons why coal can't compete. Namely it requires to be mined else where, milled, rolling stock to bring it to a plant, available water for steam production, pollution controls such a sulphur capture stacks and tailing waste management; there's also potential union strikes at the mines, or at the rail, or at the plant.

Wind and sunlight have no unions or any of the capital expenditure costs of coal to inhibit profits on tight margins on a PPA. The energy instead comes to the renewables for free. It makes good capitalist sense to invest in renewables provided storage and dispatchable sources are integrated commensurate to the critical 50 mhz requirements of the NEM. Intermittents can't just be randomly plugged in. There needs a wholistic approach to deal with the complexity of the NEM. One day it may even be connected to the SWIS by high voltage DC lines and the continent capitalise on being a continent.


Quote:

I suppose this brings in to question monopolies, in a free market free of regulation or oversight, it's easy to buy out the competition and price gouge to desire.




One of the problems for the utilities to own the lot is PPE's set in stone for 20 or so years. Hence the regulations.

From the private sector they want a guarantee they'll have a long legs PPA so they not only break even on the capital expenditure they can generate income for their investors. From the government side there must be a guarantee of production on an agreed wholesale generation cost over the agreed time frame. This is where government has its place to act as traffic keepers to ensure best business flow.

Unless this is assured then peripheral high use customer businesses such as bauxite will fail. There's also the disaggregation given no end of retail and commercial consumers can put solar on their roofs ergo the PPA's have to factor aggregating this by harvesting per FiT and/or storage. Yep, we're now in an age because of technology where just about everyone can generate meaningful electrons. The days of big plant control are over. They were the days of coal.

I also see numerous entrepreneurs will rise to create virtual micro-grids and each a shifting subset of consumers across States, with tight margins made profitable by predictive futures software. Such as looking closely at remote sensing and ground instruments to determine cloud shadow and/or wind velocities to help determine most profitable generation in minutes ahead, as well as values set by FiT's, PPA inputs, time of day and load demand. AI will be a game changer on this. Of course there will be many who will opt out altogether and that's doable once the cost on batteries gets to 10 cents a kwh. Currently 17 cents and falling.



Quote:

With an accountability campaign I don't think the stereotypical political cronyism we're so used to would play as big a role in the minds of voters.




Voters switch off from the endless stream of media noise. That's the goldfish factor of apathy. It suits both sides of the aisle and only in the lead up to an election do they dust off their claimed policies and the media goes into full polling mode. A circus.


Quote:

I don't think private sectors are any better in the realm of transparency.




They can be audited.

I'm yet to see governmental departments given the same scrutiny per billions wasted. Take Queensland's Department of Health for example. Over a third are not medical staff. That's over 26-thousand bureaucrats and not one is a nurse or a doctor let alone the money lost which would otherwise go to more beds in hospitals. You couldn't replicate this if it were a private hospital with thousands of unnecessary staff. The requirement of being profitable jettisons the superfluous.

https://www.health.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0027/363906/qh-staffing.pdf

Edited by Oz_Salvia (12/19/21 10:03 PM)

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27588285 - 12/20/21 12:52 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

The ABC got it wrong and you're right............ 
:orly:

Let's not take your word for it, as I get the impression you're slightly biased, lets listen to Bill explain his tax on people who pay no tax.



Next, we can talk about that bloated hemorrhoid on the arse of Australian politics Clive Palmer, the billionaire that chose to move his money around before Qld Nickel sunk and the workers lost their entitlements, like superannuation! :cookiemonster:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27589052 - 12/21/21 02:52 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I'm 100% right and correct as your side the Leftist ALP Shorten side, LOST!! :laugh2:

Yes, the tribe has spoken and no one wants to hear from Shorten, who's as unwelcome as a open sore chancre on a pecker.  :freewilly:


So what are you going to do about this?

Oh, that's right, show a video of your good mate Shorten talking shit, as his input means so much. :rolleyes: He lost the un-lose-able-election and you're expecting me to be inspired by a failure? LOL I don't think so! :noway2:

Shorten is a shit-stain on the ALP's odds at the next federal and the Australian gives a good read on that. If the ALP wants to win it best eschew all of Shorten's bullshit Leftie nonsense.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/shorten-haunts-labor-in-changed-economic-climate/news-story/adfa5f3767aee56db291c2af278edb8f

Elections are a battle for survival. The team with the strongest electoral pulse wins. The Coalition has taken three consecutive elections by playing the main game while the chattering classes play the man. Labor has been lounging on the opposition benches since it snubbed the working class to gorge on the low-hanging fruit of identity politics. Three election losses should have been sufficient to teach Labor that political correctness is the preserve of the privileged, but the green left is not a quick study.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27589065 - 12/21/21 03:31 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Lol, you and I both know you aren’t being entirely truthful in your explanation of Shortens tax now are you?

But hey, whatever man.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27589081 - 12/21/21 04:11 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

By your logic Trump was right because he was voted in.

Either way though, I don't trust liberal or labor. Two sides of the same coin imo.

I'm interested in dividends but don't have enough info yet to make an informed comment relating to all the policy aspects, at some point maybe.

Private sectors still don't have to disclose who they donate to.
Quote:

Political funding has the potential to undermine the fundamental principles of accountability and acting in the public interest, and by extension, the integrity of representative government, by 'leaving in its wake particular kinds of corruption'.

Of specific interest to this inquiry is the risk that political funding; in particular, large donations from private interests, poses in terms of 'corruption through undue influence'. Such corruption constitutes a type of conflict of interest.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Political_Influence_of_Donations/PoliticalDonations/Report_1/section?id=committees%2Freportsen%2F024147%2F25779



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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27589093 - 12/21/21 04:54 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Lol, you and I both know you aren’t being entirely truthful in your explanation of Shortens tax now are you?

But hey, whatever man.





Comments at your YouTube link. You should check the comments as they can undermine your Billy boy bullshit. :lol:


Billy fails to mention that refunds on unused imputation credits was once Labor policy. Here is an extract of a speech by Labor's then shadow treasurer Simon Crean on 17th February 2000 from the House Hansard, page 13733: "Although imputation credits can be used to reduce an individual's or a superannuation fund's income tax liability to nil, excess credits were of no value to taxpayers. This bill proposes to refund to taxpayers any excess imputation of credits that may be left after offsetting the credits against their income tax liability. The classic example of such a situation is a low income person who earns a little investment income—for example, a full rate age pensioner. They face no income tax liability on their income and therefore cannot obtain the benefit of the excess franking credits attached to the small amount of dividend income they receive. Under this proposal, they will obtain a refund of their income tax from the Taxation Office, representing the excess imputation credits. Labor included this proposal in our taxation policy prior to the last election. Therefore we have no difficulty supporting the proposal because it is our policy. It builds on the major reform accomplished by Labor almost 15 years ago and it improves the current taxation situation faced by low income investors, especially retired Australians."


It's a credit, Bill, a credit. It's not a gift. He sure is a dimwit. He deserves to lose the election! Oh shoot! He DID lose the election! rofl!


Bill learn from your mistakes. It’s not a “free” payment. The money comes from the company which exists because retirees and others have risked their capital, buying shares, to make the company work. Government risks nothing but takes a third of the profit as tax, by force of legislation. It’s a disincentive for business and a burden on the real economy.


Perhaps I should point out to people that the money that the government is 'gifting' to retirees and people in the tax free threshold is the very same money that the companies (of which they are shareholders) paid in tax on their profits, essentially on behalf of shareholders, prior to paying their profits out as dividends. It's unfair to call it a gift. The refund is for the tax that was paid by proxy by the company.
Regardless of whether or not you think it is good policy, you should at least admit that what you are doing is making some people with gross incomes in the tax free threshold pay tax on part of their income (why?) and reneging the idea that retirees can access their super tax free (in some cases).

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27589095 - 12/21/21 05:00 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

By your logic Trump was right because he was voted in.




The Hildebeast would have been a disaster. But that's US politics and none of us get a vote (say) on that.


Quote:

I'm interested in dividends but don't have enough info yet to make an informed comment relating to all the policy aspects, at some point maybe.




Don't waste your time on vacillating on whether they're good or bad per policy, invest with them in mind and get a 43% better return compared to same in real estate renting. I've posted this link before, I will again. Worth reading, understanding and applying.

https://www.fool.com.au/2014/06/03/how-im-beating-the-tax-man-and-you-can-too/

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27589421 - 12/21/21 12:19 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Anyone who's voted is in right doesn't make sense, a lot of the time there is propaganda and a not totally informed and misled constituency.

That's a bit a give away imo, it's nice to have an idea of whether a policy is beneficial to the whole in the long term for future voting, but as the system is now, whatever's not illegal :shrug:


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27591457 - 12/23/21 05:23 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/individual-income-tax-rates/#Residents

Quote:

Resident tax rates 2021–22


Tax on this income

0 – $18,200

Nil

$18,201 – $45,000

19 cents for each $1 over $18,200

$45,001 – $120,000

$5,092 plus 32.5 cents for each $1 over $45,000

$120,001 – $180,000

$29,467 plus 37 cents for each $1 over $120,000

$180,001 and over

$51,667 plus 45 cents for each $1 over $180,000

The above rates do not include the Medicare levy of 2%.





Seeing as Superannuation becomes your income when you retire everyone is STILL supposed to pay tax.

So @ around 12% return on super worth $300 000 a couple could earn at least $36 grand and pay no tax, SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE.

And according to the table below that 300 grand investment STILL won't affect their pension.



https://www.australiansuper.com/retirement/retirement-articles/2019/06/what-is-the-assets-test-for-the-government-age-pension

Quote:

IF YOU'RE:                                                       A HOMEOWNER           NOT A HOMEOWNER
Single                                                                          $270,500               $487,000

A couple (combined)                                                   $405,000               $621,500

A couple, with one partner eligible (combined)           $405,000               $621,500


If the value of your assets is above the limit in the above table, you may still be eligible for a part Age Pension.
For every $1,000 over the limit (for your situation), your pension payment will reduce by $3 a fortnight.





That's why your story, along with Morrison's attack's on Labor's effort's to get rid of a $6 billion dollar subsidy to people who should pay tax is incorrect and disingenuous.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27591517 - 12/23/21 07:00 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You omit a couple of important facts.

1.) You do not pay tax of any sort on growth once you reach preservation age on your super up to the value of 1.7-mil per individual. Preservation age is based on date of birth.

Please note I have explained in this thread some of the tax saving ways to get there and how your pal Shorten wanted to make it that much harder. If you've chosen to not take advantage of what is legal, it is then at your own loss and therefore your own fault.

2.) You do not pay a bean on fully franked shares because the company that delivered the franked shares already paid a 30% company tax. Meaning, you as a shareholder owned a portion of that company which paid company tax. Meaning you already paid tax. This idea from Shorten that it is a "gift" is completely false. It's not a "gift", it's not a magic pudding. Your franked dividend is paid wholly on the profit the company paid and the ATO has not given 1 cent out of its coffers taken from others to franked dividend share holders.

Now if you claim otherwise I want to see the money trail showing the ATO having to dig into others' taxes to pay these franked dividends. Shorten was asked to provide this and never could. He's a liar. He lost the election.

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27591522 - 12/23/21 07:12 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/individual-income-tax-rates/#Residents

Quote:

Resident tax rates 2021–22


Tax on this income

0 – $18,200

Nil

$18,201 – $45,000

19 cents for each $1 over $18,200

$45,001 – $120,000

$5,092 plus 32.5 cents for each $1 over $45,000

$120,001 – $180,000

$29,467 plus 37 cents for each $1 over $120,000

$180,001 and over

$51,667 plus 45 cents for each $1 over $180,000

The above rates do not include the Medicare levy of 2%.





Seeing as Superannuation becomes your income when you retire everyone is STILL supposed to pay tax.

So @ around 12% return on super worth $300 000 a couple could earn at least $36 grand and pay no tax, SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE.

And according to the table below that 300 grand investment STILL won't affect their pension.



https://www.australiansuper.com/retirement/retirement-articles/2019/06/what-is-the-assets-test-for-the-government-age-pension

Quote:

IF YOU'RE:                                                       A HOMEOWNER           NOT A HOMEOWNER
Single                                                                          $270,500               $487,000

A couple (combined)                                                   $405,000               $621,500

A couple, with one partner eligible (combined)           $405,000               $621,500


If the value of your assets is above the limit in the above table, you may still be eligible for a part Age Pension.
For every $1,000 over the limit (for your situation), your pension payment will reduce by $3 a fortnight.





That's why your story, along with Morrison's attack's on Labor's effort's to get rid of a $6 billion dollar subsidy to people who should pay tax is incorrect and disingenuous.





Please, who wants to get an "aged pension"?? That's not a retirement when it would see to a life of scrounge and suffer.

The aim is to be 100% self-funded in retirement, have in today's money a super balance of 3.4-mil with spouse because of the zero growth tax regime and more in investment on the side. By the time I reach preservation the 1.7-mil per individual might be about 2-mil, or 4-mil per couple.

This idea of only having 300k as a super balance at preservation is plain baked beans and candles austerity! Why would one do that after decades of work and opportunity to invest? 300k in today's money won't last long enough to reach funeral territory and once that dough runs out the aged pension is all there is - if it even exists in the decades forward??

You do realise the whole idea of super is to get the populations 100% off the welfare purse in the future. Might be something you get currently, but it's not what will happen for today's young earners and the super they're accruing. Very different territory for them.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27591863 - 12/23/21 01:08 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

There would be many people with that amount  of super at the moment.

36 grand + the pension for a couple is 40 grand a year.
Add car registration, council rates, electricity rates concessions etc and they're pushing 80 grand a year.... yes I think they should probably pay tax.

By the time this bill would have made it's way through the senate the end result would have looked a lot different than Shorten's badly constucted explanation.


https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/how-much-age-pension-you-can-get?context=22526

Was it a winner with the voters? lol of course not.

Shorten lost the unlosable election on this point alone, let alone his unpopularity, smashed by the retirees in Queensland, but I'm not loosing any sleep over it.

The silver lining was Abbott being voted out by an independent. What a spectacular loss and good riddance.

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27592344 - 12/23/21 08:30 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
There would be many people with that amount  of super at the moment.

36 grand + the pension for a couple is 40 grand a year.
Add car registration, council rates, electricity rates concessions etc and they're pushing 80 grand a year.... yes I think they should probably pay tax.







Listen up and you need to understand this.

No one pays any tax at all on the growth in their Super once they reach preservation age (for many that's 60 years of age and likely to go up higher in age into the future). That's a guarantee and if you really want political outrage you'll see it by an ocean full if the Super rules were changed to slug taxes as you want. It may even see Super crumble because why salary sacrifice now when you won't appreciate it later?

I'll also add in pre-preservation you get taxed at 15% on growth, which is why it's smart for people to $ock as much as they can into their Super so they don't get an ~35% tax on growth as they would in a regular folio outside of Super. Needless to say the less tax you pay in building Super enables the leverage of time per compounding to build up a secure nest egg for retirement. It's not magic, it's consistency and understanding 15% tax is certainly better than 35%. Further, the sooner one starts growing their Super the better it will be i.e. a dollar put in at age 20 will multi-bag outclass the same aged 50.

I have said it before in my previous post that the idea of Super is to build a future where all who reach preservation are self-funded. I myself won't be leaning on the system for "car registration, council rates, electricity rates concessions etc" because I will be 100% self-funded. I don't believe I should be taxed having followed the Super rules once I reach preservation because my assets preclude me from any of this aged pension nonsense.

I'd like to see the end of the aged pension and concessions rot. I can't understand how and why old people fail to save and invest and instead look to the State to look after them. That old has-been moocher culture needs to end. COVID should be allowed to cleanse the scene. May even lower property prices with a splash of deceased estates on the market and perhaps give the kids you've spoken about a chance at buying a roof over their head.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27592358 - 12/23/21 08:44 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

So you’d be ok if you got cleansed or only ‘other people’?

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27592433 - 12/23/21 09:56 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27592463 - 12/23/21 10:36 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:






Thanks on that post.

Shows the massive spend on old people who should have made provision to their future given they had decades to do so. Instead it's a terrible leaning on the young who have already been heavily burdened in COVID debt, ironically to save the old by locking up the country. That's the tragedy of our age. Yep, long after they have popped their clogs the young will be carrying the load. I see the end of the aged pension and their concessions.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia] * 1
    #27592492 - 12/23/21 11:25 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

That's so stupid , how fucking selfish and entitled do you have to be to demonize the people who built the very society you take for granted ?


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27592493 - 12/23/21 11:30 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

His posts are fucking revolting.

I doubt he’s ever seen adversity but wait for it, we’ll hear aaaaallll about how hard he’s had to work to get where he is single handed.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27592518 - 12/24/21 12:15 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Enjoy Stable Genius, and festive cheer. :tongue2:


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27592539 - 12/24/21 01:05 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

It sounds like a portion of retirees benefiting from franked dividends do have a low income, but that doesn't take into account wealth or superannuation as far as I understand.

Quote:

In a speech to the Alliance for a Fairer Retirement System, Assistant Treasurer Stuart Robert said the plan would hit some of the lowest paid Australians.

"How is that fair on the lowest paid, those with low fixed incomes, those who are retired?" he said.

"It is not fair.

"Any changes will overwhelmingly hit low and middle-income earners, with 84 per cent of the individuals impacted on taxable incomes of less than $37,000 …"

Will the changes mostly hit low and middle-income earners, with 84 per cent on taxable incomes of less than $37,000? RMIT ABC Fact Check investigates.

Mr Robert's claim is misleading.

He suggests Australia's least well off will bear the brunt of the pain.

To make his case, Mr Robert relies on the taxable income of people claiming excess franking credits as a cash refund. This is problematic for a number of reasons.

First, taxable income does not include the largest source of income for many retirees: superannuation.

Superannuation income (for fund balances of up to $1.6 million) is generally not subject to tax in the retirement phase, and is therefore excluded from taxable income.

Second, in a related sense, taxable income often has little to do with wealth.

For example, the Grattan Institute has estimated that, when superannuation withdrawals are pared out of income data for retirees, almost half of the "wealthiest" 10 per cent of people over 65 report incomes of less than the $18,200 tax-free threshold.

Third, Labor's policy applies to both individuals and superannuation funds. By focusing on individuals, Mr Robert is ignoring the impact that would flow through to members of superannuation funds, particularly self-managed superannuation funds, which account for almost half the refunds claimed.

Figures from the Parliamentary Budget Office show that almost a quarter of all refunds claimed in 2014-15 went to 33,761 self-managed superannuation funds with balances of over $2.4 million.

This is not to say the policy will have no impact on some individuals with modest incomes and wealth.

What is clear, however, is using the taxable income of individuals tells us little about the overall financial position of those affected, or about the fairness or otherwise of Labor's policy.

Ms Wood, from the Grattan Institute, said most of the people affected were self-funded retirees.

"And the reason they are affected is because they get refunds and the reason they get refunds is because they have low taxable incomes," Ms Wood said.

"The reason they have low taxable incomes is because the income generated by self-managed super funds up to balances of $1.6 million is tax free. So their taxable income could be low but their actual income is often reasonably healthy, but they are still getting access to imputation credits.

"Taxable income is a very poor estimate of means when you are talking about people in retirement."

Kathrin Bain, from the School of Taxation and Business Law at UNSW Sydney, said as a general rule most of those affected by Labor's policy had marginal tax rates less than the company tax rate.

"To be affected by this policy you have to have a marginal tax rate that is lower than the company tax rate," Ms Bain said.

"If you are just looking at individuals, of course it is going to affect people with lower taxable income."

"In terms of whether it is fair, that goes into a theoretical debate about what the imputation system is meant to do. Some people would argue of course you should get a refund because the whole idea of our current imputation system is that dividends are effectively taxed at the individual's marginal rate. On the other hand, others argue that our original imputation system shouldn't have been changed to give a refundable tax offset. The argument there is that even if no refund is available, the dividend still has not been taxed at a rate higher that the company rate."

Ms Bain said the current system of refundable imputation credits benefits superannuation funds that have a tax rate of 15 per cent and will often receive large tax refunds as a result of the imputation system.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-30/fact-check-labors-dividend-imputation-policy/10626204




All in all, even with aged pension payments, Australia spends around $227 billion a year on welfare, all inclusive. The thing about welfare though is that it puts back into the community and the economy by allowing people to participate in society in a meaningful way.

And as for the people who built the very society we live within, I'm grateful and all, and given that I'll still point out the ladders pulled up behind them.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27593778 - 12/25/21 07:06 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oz_Salvia said:
Enjoy Stable Genius, and festive cheer. :tongue2:







Oooooo! a back handed Christmas troll post gift, for me!? You shouldn’t have… and I didn’t get you anything….
How about a gift from the ABC to help with your lack of social skills
Here you go, enjoy


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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27599398 - 12/30/21 02:56 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Ah yes, roll out the unicorns and rainbows reality of the ABC. :rolleyes:

The reality is now seen by all that they're violent and dangerous. Time to close down their so called tent embassy as it's just a conduit for leftist scumbags to riot in Canberra.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/fire-old-parliament-house-canberra-protesters/f7fd935a-d31f-4223-8417-e672fca347b6?ocid=Social-9NewsM

Police have confirmed a fire at Old Parliament House this morning was started by protesters. The fire has caused significant damage to the front facade of the building, with protesters outside heard chanting "let it burn".


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27600679 - 12/31/21 02:01 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Yep, the Left decided to double down with none other than indigenous Greens senator Lidia Thorpe cheering on the indigenous mob of arson. I note that piece of garbage pulled her twitter post - too late, it was screen captured.



https://www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/online/greens-leader-adam-bandt-remains-silent-over-senator-lidia-thorpes-tweet/news-story/e03757cc367e10255998fd86c125a75b

Backlash over a Greens senator tweeting that the fire at Old Parliament House seemed like the “colonial system burning” has grown as police announced a taskforce to investigate the blaze.








Yep, loading up fuel against the door of this historic old building and cheering the arson. Have to wonder what Leftist icon, the late Whitlam, would have made of this - appalled no doubt. Custodial sentences and lengthy gaol times required.




And see this: the proof video of the fire being deliberately lit by the scumbag Lefties.

How's that ABC unicorns and rainbows video of yours working out, Stable Genius?

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Oz_Salvia]
    #27601543 - 12/31/21 06:27 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

It doesn't seem clear yet who exactly was involved, and whatever their political affiliations, the actions of burning property is condemned.

In my opinion it is lazy thinking to snowball this and generalise it into a lefties comment.

It seems to ignore unanswered nuances, like who set the fire, why it was set, what was the protest actually for, for indigenous matters or anti vax matters? It's hard to say as of yet what all the details are.

People of all mixes of politican affiliations do both good and bad things, and this still seems like a mixed plot.

Quote:

The circumstances surrounding the blaze were not fully clear. A group called People’s Treaty had gathered at Old Parliament House in recent days, organizing its activities in a Telegram channel seen by The Washington Post. Its users frequently referenced Indigenous concerns. The group’s website references the “deep state” and says it believes in dissolving all forms of government, and that it opposes mandatory vaccinations and coronavirus restrictions. The administrator of the channel and the website couldn’t be reached immediately for comment.

Another group known as MMAMV Australia — for Millions March Against Mandatory Vaccination — live-streamed the fire on Facebook. It had posted from Old Parliament House the previous day, vowing to return “until the job is done” and using the hashtag #takeoldparliament. Posts from this group were shared in the People’s Treaty Telegram channel, though an MMAMV representative told The Post in a Facebook message that the group had “nothing to do with what’s happening” and had only been asked to film the events at Old Parliament House.

“A police investigation into the cause of the fire has commenced,” a spokesperson said. “Old Parliament House will remain closed until further notice.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/29/australia-fire-old-parliament-house/




A lot of the Aboriginal land argument I think is pandering, by all accounts you could consider the entirety of Australia of cultural significance, and for whatever the requests are, no one is getting back their ancestors land. There are plenty of rural lands to inhabit, but urban or suburban sprawl is not up for grabs no matter the historical implications.

I think for me I just don't know what is wanted or desired in regards to culturally significant landmarks etc. And respecting the elders? Hey maybe for plant knowledge and ancient environmental management practices but beyond that anyone of age is in the same boat imo.

Some people take trying to be politically correct, and trying to not offend a living soul to a point too much imo.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27603899 - 01/02/22 02:12 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

In my opinion it is lazy thinking to snowball this and generalise it into a lefties comment.
:cookiemonster: :super:

It seems to ignore unanswered nuances, like who set the fire, why it was set, what was the protest actually for, for indigenous matters or anti vax matters? It's hard to say as of yet what all the details are.

People of all mixes of politican affiliations do both good and bad things, and this still seems like a mixed plot.

Quote:

The circumstances surrounding the blaze were not fully clear. A group called People’s Treaty had gathered at Old Parliament House in recent days, organizing its activities in a Telegram channel seen by The Washington Post. Its users frequently referenced Indigenous concerns. The group’s website references the “deep state” and says it believes in dissolving all forms of government, and that it opposes mandatory vaccinations and coronavirus restrictions. The administrator of the channel and the website couldn’t be reached immediately for comment.

Another group known as MMAMV Australia — for Millions March Against Mandatory Vaccination — live-streamed the fire on Facebook. It had posted from Old Parliament House the previous day, vowing to return “until the job is done” and using the hashtag #takeoldparliament. Posts from this group were shared in the People’s Treaty Telegram channel, though an MMAMV representative told The Post in a Facebook message that the group had “nothing to do with what’s happening” and had only been asked to film the events at Old Parliament House.

“A police investigation into the cause of the fire has commenced,” a spokesperson said. “Old Parliament House will remain closed until further notice.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/29/australia-fire-old-parliament-house/




A lot of the Aboriginal land argument I think is pandering, by all accounts you could consider the entirety of Australia of cultural significance, and for whatever the requests are, no one is getting back their ancestors land. There are plenty of rural lands to inhabit, but urban or suburban sprawl is not up for grabs no matter the historical implications.

I think for me I just don't know what is wanted or desired in regards to culturally significant landmarks etc. And respecting the elders? Hey maybe for plant knowledge and ancient environmental management practices but beyond that anyone of age is in the same boat imo.

Some people take trying to be politically correct, and trying to not offend a living soul to a point too much imo.




Sounds reasonable :thumbup: We are dealing with the fallout from a racist past which is a prickly subject on it's own.

The Aboriginal Tent Embassy has been there a long time though with nothing like this happening. Someone may google this and prove me factually incorrect but whatever, they don't roll like that.

I'd back the anti vax movement for stirring this up, same as the attack on the CFMEU building and staff mid 2021, which would mean there's likely every political party represented but also likely more far far right, yes it's a weird situation alright.
https://theconversation.com/white-supremacist-and-far-right-ideology-underpin-anti-vax-movements-172289

Here's one of those no good Labor leftie black senators acting irresponsibly trying to deal with the conspiracy theory problem in remote communities.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/01/pat-dodson-condemns-rogue-christian-groups-spreading-anti-vax-propaganda-in-remote-wa

But hey, let's not allow these sort of minor details to get in the road of a good story.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27603958 - 01/02/22 02:40 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oz_Salvia said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Is this Bronwyn Bishop? This ruling class arrogance towards the peasants reminds me of her.




Is this the best you have, a veiled ad hominem, as an argument, when I've thoroughly beaten every nonsense you have posted?

Your claim your mate Bob Brown kicked off renewables in Australia in the 1990's is totally false, and I've already shown you he has stopped large renewable plants. So go on, double down and demonstrably show your pal was the maestro per your claim in the 90's. :lol:




.... when what I said was

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I'm glad you agree.

Something I find hilarious as well is that if it wasn't for the Greens there'd be next to zero investment in Renewable Energy.

Join me in thanking Bob Brown :cookiemonster:





That makes you either a liar, or you don't understand English. If so, why do you feel the need to twist my words?

Strangely enough, a week after I posted that comment Juice Media posted EXACTLY the same point I made. Did they need to clarify their point by having some smart arse say "Oooo Oooo it was John Howard that started it all"? No.

The point was that with the Greens holding the balance of power = they firmly had the Labor Party by the nuts = real investment in renewables = real reductions in carbon emissions.

Pretty simple really.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27709323 - 03/26/22 10:21 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

So as not to derail the Ukraine thread I want to put up some stuff for anyone that may be interested in relation to the CIA's involvement in the overthrow of The Whitlam Government in 1975.

The first one is from CBS and touches on the Nugan Hand Bank. Although it doesn't specifically say so in this video, it sets the scene and touches on the 'coup' yes coup that played out here in '75.
The CIA funnelled over 20 million into the Liberal(conservative) Party's pocket, via the Nugan Hand Bank, in the years following Gough Whitlam's election in 1972, and their puppet and go between was The Governor General Sir John Kerr. Kerr had decades of involvement with the Washington spooks.
The details in the YouTube comment section are worth reading as well.



Kerr took advice from the Queens private secretary Martin Charteris, as well as a couple of High Court judges on whether he had the constitutional power to sack Whitlam over the Constitutional crisis where the Senate was denying supply and the government was unable to pass anything. As shown in the recently de-classified Kerr Palace Letters released only a year ago, Charteris did NOT advise Kerr to sack Whitlam and neither did the Queen. In fact Whitlam and Kerr had 3 options, Kerr took it upon himself to not only disregard these options, he chose to NOT notify the Queen he was bringing down the government, and this is at the crux of the matter, why the fuck did he choose so??

The Nixon government/spooks/CIA whatever, were completely rattled when Whitlam came to office in '72 as within days of winning the Federal election Whitlam did as promised and ended Australia's involvement in Vietnam as well as poking his nose into the relationship between ASIO and the CIA, as well as threatening to close Pine Gap

There are at least 2 spy bases in Australia, 1 at North West Cape Western Australia but the most well known one is Pine Gap. I think there may have been a third but it was Pine Gap that the U.S. used to not only spy on China and Russia but also co-ordinate the bombing of Cambodia and more recently the drone strikes throughout the conflicts in the Middle East.

But getting back to Pine Gap, does anyone remember the 60 minutes interview Ray Martin did with a guy called Christopher Boyce?
Boyce was so disgusted by the CIA's treatment of the Whitlam government towards intelligence sharing, or lack of, gathered from the Pine Gap 'Joint Facility' that he thought, fuck it, and started selling secrets to the Russians.

I couldn't find the 60 Minutes interview but Dateline did one below, after he came out of prison. In that interview he touches on the CIA's infiltration of the trade union movement and in his own words 'the coup' orchestrated against the Whitlam government.



One more, John Pilger interviewed Duane Clarridge, head of the CIA's Latin America division in the 80's, have a listen to this guy, whoa!



Lastly, if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, take the time to go through the excellent article below, again by John Pilger detailing the CIA's behind the scenes overthrow of an elected government, it's what they do best.

John Pilger. The forgotten coup against the most loyal ally.

The Russia government are a bunch of amateurs compared to the U.S. government.
But this is what these fuckers do, and they keep doing it. It never stops, there's always another government that needs throwing out, always another fucking war.
They are homicidal maniacs that operate with impunity and are a scourge on humanity :puke:


Edit. Found the 60 Minutes interview :thumbup:

https://archive.org/details/ChristopherBoyce1982InterviewRayMartin

Edited by Stable Genius (03/26/22 10:24 AM)

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27709784 - 03/26/22 06:59 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Mate, Australia is a minnow on the world stage. It’s 90b subs will surface, if they ever do that is, in 20 years. China builds one nuclear submarine every year, each year. They can possibly enter the port of Darwin, which they operate on a 90 year lease, whiteout asking. Could be wrong about the 90 years.
The loud mouthed politicians who seem to have zero clue about international relations make things only worse by their chest beating, dumbass comments. Morrison, for example refused to meet the new Chinese ambassador because it would be seen as weakness. What a moron.
They can all piss off…..

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: dunnomuch]
    #27709816 - 03/26/22 07:35 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the comment but I don't quite get your point as you make many points?

I posted the Whitlam government history lesson here instead of the Ukraine thread in response to being told the CIA involvement was a load of crap, which it's not.

Anyway, glad you took the time to join in and if you have the inclination to, check out some of those video's, especially the 60 Minutes one, Christopher Boyce is cool as F, what a champion :super:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27709845 - 03/26/22 08:17 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Wasn't Whitman caught trying to raise money illegally and isnt that the reason Sir John Kerr called the election and the Labor party was defeated ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loans_affair

    What Whitman did was unconstitutional and what Kerr did was not .
If it isn't unconstitutional it isn't a coupe .
    I'm not saying the cia didn't try to exert influence though , they do that everywhere .


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27709859 - 03/26/22 08:44 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Whitlam made quite a few mistakes. Trying to borrow money from Tirath Khemlani was one of them.

Running the country for the first few weeks with only himself and Jim Cairns was probably another one. Ballsy though. It also showed how arrogant he was and why his ministers had trouble working for him.

If you look further into whether or not Kerrs actions were constitutional and thus 'legal' there's STILL debate over that as the powers he used aren't written down anywhere, that's why he asked for advice not only from the Queen's private secretary but also 2 serving Australian High Court judges.
Martin Charteris clearly advised him NOT to do it, but he went ahead and did it anyway WITHOUT notifying the Queen either, which is something that is also still argued about.

Also, if you look at the three options he and Whitlam had available to resolve the crisis you have to ask why didn't he allow Whitlam to choose one which is EXACTLY what Gough was on his way to do when he went to see Kerr and was sacked. Gough was ambushed with the leader of the opposition sitting in the next room.

Whitlam also had the power to sack The Governor General.

I know I've posted a few videos in the other post but they are worth putting into the equation and looking at. Christopher Boyce called it flat out a coup, I think it was also.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27709962 - 03/26/22 10:12 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Mate, Australia is a minnow on the world stage. It’s 90b subs will surface, if they ever do that is, in 20 years. China builds one nuclear submarine every year, each year. They can possibly enter the port of Darwin, which they operate on a 90 year lease, whiteout asking. Could be wrong about the 90 years.
The loud mouthed politicians who seem to have zero clue about international relations make things only worse by their chest beating, dumbass comments. Morrison, for example refused to meet the new Chinese ambassador because it would be seen as weakness. What a moron.
They can all piss off…..
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Thanks for the comment but I don't quite get your point as you make many points?

I posted the Whitlam government history lesson here instead of the Ukraine thread in response to being told the CIA involvement was a load of crap, which it's not.

Anyway, glad you took the time to join in and if you have the inclination to, check out some of those video's, especially the 60 Minutes one, Christopher Boyce is cool as F, what a champion :super:




Mate, I was referring to the huge power  imbalance between OZ and China subs or not. The subs business was always a cock up, Collins class. Apart from that, the navy has problems trying to staff those, let alone what might eventually arrive. The flurry of current, almost daily announcements on some defence spending, has more to do with the election coming than serious, we’ll researched, properly costed projects. Oz doesn't have a good track record with defence spending, F35s Abrams tanks (second hand) etc. I resent so  much money expended on arms. I think that is what I attempted to write, not well enough i'm sure. 😊

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: dunnomuch]
    #27710043 - 03/27/22 12:39 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

No worries :super: Yeah by the time those subs arrive I'll be in a wheelchair.

It's a pity we don't make better use of diplomacy instead of the sabre rattling coming from the Morrison government, in particular Peter Dutton, he just doesn't know when to stfu. Typical pig headed ex cop.

Do you think Labor has a chance this time around? I'll be voting Labor :popcorn:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27710060 - 03/27/22 12:57 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

The Greens are talking about abolishing student debt, I think it's a great idea, especially if it's done instead of a tax cut, which will mainly benefit the rich.
If they end up with the balance of power with Labor that's when we'll see some action.

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7670824/greens-pledge-to-abolish-student-debts-as-election-pledge/?cs=14264

The Libs have been treading water for too long, time to get rid of them.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27719575 - 04/03/22 03:04 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Are you familiar with the Australian program "Q+A"?

They just kicked out a guy for saying he supports Russia.



If you watch to the end, you'll see the question he originally wanted to ask that they wouldn't allow.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27719592 - 04/03/22 03:17 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Fair enough, the dude advocated for violence.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27719603 - 04/03/22 03:24 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

The Queen played a role in superseding Australian democracy and hid it for 50 years, so a flipped bird to the Queen, and may god bless the day she retires.

Quote:

The “palace letters” show the Australian Constitution’s susceptibility to self-interested behaviour by individual vice-regal representatives. They also reveal the vulnerability of Australian governments to secret destabilisation by proxy by the Crown.

They reveal a governor-general, fearing his own dismissal, succumbing to moral hazard, and the British monarch’s private secretary encouraging him in the idea that a double dissolution was legitimate in the event a government could not get its budget bills passed.

The letters confirm the worst fears of those who viewed Governor-General Sir John Kerr’s sacking of the Whitlam government as a constitutional coup. They reveal Kerr shortened by at most a mere three months the resolution of the crisis created by the conservative Malcolm Fraser-led opposition’s refusal to pass the government’s budget bills, compared to Prime Minister Gough Whitlam’s own timetable shared with Kerr.

https://theconversation.com/palace-letters-reveal-the-palaces-fingerprints-on-the-dismissal-of-the-whitlam-government-142476




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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27719612 - 04/03/22 03:33 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Q&A is supposed to be THE pinnacle of televised political and social debate in Australia.

Stan Grant is the bloody know all on everything and a koods type of social justice warrior, meaning he can't be told anything that doesn't fit his belief, is never wrong and just doesn't know when to stfu.

I didn't see that particular show but thanks for pointing it out, you've given me even more reason to loathe Stan Grant and I'll be seeing how I can make a complaint against him and the ABC.

I haven't checked out Sky News for a while and might see what their take on this is.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27719622 - 04/03/22 03:41 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The Queen played a role in superseding Australian democracy and hid it for 50 years, so a flipped bird to the Queen, and may god bless the day she retires.





I think you'll find the Palace Letters prove that;

1. Kerr was advised to NOT sack Whitlam yet did so anyway WITHOUT informing her(via Martin Charteris) he was doing so
and
2. The only thing she is guilty of is not discussing this crisis with Whitlam but seeing as The Governor General is supposed to be her voice in Australia it makes sense, otherwise she'd be accused of meddling in our politics!

She did not order Whitlam's sacking.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27719649 - 04/03/22 04:10 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

This is Sky News' take on the Q & A show and they lay out the problem very well. For the first time ever I agree with James Morrow !

The comment section is also encouraging and worth reading.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27719663 - 04/03/22 04:18 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Fair enough, the dude advocated for violence.



Here is his question:

Quote:

As someone who comes from the Russian community here in Australia, I've been pretty outraged by the narrative created by our media depicting the Ukraine as the "good guy", and Russia as the "bad guy".  Believe it or not, there are a lot of Russians here and around the world that support what Putin is doing in the Ukraine, myself included.  Since 2014, the Ukrainian Government, together with Nazi groups like the Azov battalion, have besieged the Russian populations in the Donbas, killing an estimated 13,000 people according to the United Nations.  So my question is where was your outpouring of grief and concern for those thousands of mostly Russians?




Given that 8 years of peace talks didn't stop the violence, what do YOU think Russia should have done?


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27719760 - 04/03/22 05:12 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Q&A is supposed to be THE pinnacle of televised political and social debate in Australia.

Stan Grant is the bloody know all on everything and a koods type of social justice warrior, meaning he can't be told anything that doesn't fit his belief, is never wrong and just doesn't know when to stfu.

I didn't see that particular show but thanks for pointing it out, you've given me even more reason to loathe Stan Grant and I'll be seeing how I can make a complaint against him and the ABC.

I haven't checked out Sky News for a while and might see what their take on this is.




I get that social justice stuff gets way out of hand way too often and some people need to keep their shit in their pants imo, but! yes but.

Ukraine is a serious issue, a legitimate and real one we have all been observing, and it's a horror.

It's quite something to say,
Quote:

Believe it or not, there are a lot of Russians here and around the world that support what Putin is doing in the Ukraine, myself included.




However he came to that conclusion, that is where he arrived, and that is what he stated. It is something to enunciate support for the evident attrocities that are still happening.

But I do see a caveat that shines upon our media the mediocrity of their sycophantic stenography to the swamp.

America is just as bad, war crimes out the wazoo, hospitals bombed, innocent civilians killed in the thousands, first responders targeted, false flag operations, wars for oil, military industrial profiteering etc.

You cannot call out the attrocities present in Ukraine at the hands of Putin without calling out the attrocities present and historically at the hands of Biden, Obama, Trump, Bush etc. 

War crimes are war crimes, and I find it ironic they make statements like there being no moral equivalence for Putins actions, and then on the other foot defending American drone strikes.

Quote:

Malcolm Fraser's criticism of drone operations 'ridiculous', says ex-Army drone pioneer

Malcom Fraser says Australians involved in US drone operations could be charged with crimes against humanity.

Retired Lieutenant Colonel Phil Swinsburg says Mr Fraser's claims that Australian personnel serving at the Pine Gap surveillance base could find themselves charged with crimes against humanity are "far-fetched" and "ridiculous".

Mr Fraser, the Liberal PM between 1975 and 1983, had warned that Australians working at the US-run Joint Defence Facility at Pine Gap – the intelligence-gathering base which reportedly now plays a key role in locating drone targets - did not have the same legal protection as their US counterparts.

"The purposes for which drones are used are going to be outlawed at some point by international agreement, and the Americans might believe that Americans involved in those programs are given legal cover under the War Powers Resolution passed after 9/11," he said.

"[It] gives totally unlimited power, no geographic limits, no time limits, using any means available or that might become available to an American president to do so.

"But that resolution gives no legal cover to Australians operating out of Pine Gap who are complicit in finding, identifying, locating the so-called target."

But Mr Swinsburg says that is not the case.

"To distil this down to an [Australian] corporal in Pine Gap being put on war crimes [charges] because of an intercept that he or she processed, and [which] is now somehow the executive authority for weapon release, is a little far-fetched, and shows the lack of regard Fraser holds [for] the general public in trying to create a situation when nothing exists," he said.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-07/ex-army-drone-expert-phil-swinsburg-hits-out-at-malcolm-fraser/5433762




I also came across an interesting interview with Malcolm Fraser along the way.

Quote:

"When he was Prime minister Gough Whitlam made it clear that he had some reservations about US bases in Australia but they were if you'd like exacerbated or exaggerated by Jim Cairns who took to thinking about US president Nixon as being a murderer." - Malcolm Fraser

That seems to be about the only time in the Whitlam period when the United States sent a serious professional diplomat Marshall Green to their ambassador in Australia. It's often occurred to some of us who possibly have paranoid tendencies to suggest that the Americans were really worried about their bases being removed by a labour government and it could have had something to do with the demise of Gough Whitlam.

"Arthur Tang and Lance Barnard saved those bases for America there's no doubt about that and America knew that was going to happen. I've seen some things written about it in recent times which I suspect is a good deal of nonsense." - Malcolm Fraser

Let me take this one bit further, the United States does have a record of either being involved in or directly removing governments or governors that they didn't particularly like, maybe we could talk about Allende in Chile, we can talk about Mosaddegh in Iran, we can talk about many countries in central America with what happened there. We can also talk about in Japan where three Japanese prime ministers recently have wished to remove or modify the bases the Americans have in Okinawa and Katsuyama.

It seems to me the Americans had a very strong influence about that. Is there some element here that you would worry if Australia by some miracle decided to start to take your advice and begin to remove the bases from Australia?

"I think that conspiracy theories can go far too far, over Mosaddegh it was certainly BP in America, and Allende yes, but umm, you know, is the CIA going to rendition Malcolm Fraser? I don't think so. America expresses its view very strongly."- Malcolm Fraser





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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27719823 - 04/03/22 05:44 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
This is Sky News' take on the Q & A show and they lay out the problem very well. For the first time ever I agree with James Morrow !

The comment section is also encouraging and worth reading.






Did anyone miss these points in the video?
Quote:

Audience member sasha gillis lakaki asked a provocative question about the media's coverage of ukraine while also talking about discredited pro-russian claims of killings in Ukraine.

Sasha's claims of Ukrainians slaughtering thousands of Russians lack evidence.

We live in a world of rules and the sovereignty of a nation can not be breached.

Even if a person is reprehensible and wrong should they be ostracized entirely from the conversation?

Isn't motivation one of the most critical aspects of covering conflicts such as invasions.

Stan Grant and Jason did a brilliant job of dismantalling this mans argument live on tv.

Sasha had been discredeted but Stan felt uncomfortable




Your job as a journalist isn't to support a neutrality bias, it's to go out there and gather the data and provide a relevant interpretation within full context of the information at hand. You don't have one person tell you it's raining, and the other that it's sunny then leave it at that, because it's journalistic malpractice.

It is important to elucidate the motivations behind an invasion like this which also includes falsifying discredited claims that lack evidence.

You don't just hear both sides and leave it at that. Oil and military funding were powerful American motivations.

Quote:

We need to tell the story of reality.. not the bubble wrapped conversation.




In a way though it is true Sasha didn't directly call for violence or threaten anyone, his comments were merely abhorrent, distasteful and insensitive to the issue at hand.

James went straight to the ad hominem on Stan, and a prevetted question doesn't mean a prevetted statement.

We can have a discussion about the narrative that each side has on the issue but it's like James said himself, "Obviously Putin is the agressor and there's no question about what's happening in Ukraine, it's attrocious."

Once both narratives have been provided it's okay to reject the false one because to not do that is to uphold a neutrality bias and hold equal platform to both narratives.

What is there to discuss of this statement?
Quote:

"Obviously Putin is the agressor and there's no question about what's happening in Ukraine, it's attrocious."




Why it happened 20 minutes later that he was asked to leave?

The feeling of loss in war is strong, and it's human to want to reduce your stress, and such a confrontation I believe would obviously be stressful. The topic is a fresh and seeping wound. The bravest of us can still be upset.

Free speech is shutting down free speech, removing someone from the stand after a tense confrontation is deescalation.


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Edited by sudly (04/03/22 06:00 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27719843 - 04/03/22 05:55 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Given that 8 years of peace talks didn't stop the violence, what do YOU think Russia should have done?



Are you going to answer this question?


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27720071 - 04/03/22 08:55 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Given that 8 years of peace talks didn't stop the violence, what do YOU think Russia should have done?



Are you going to answer this question?




I don't think Putin should have made false accusations that the Ukranian government was dominated by neo-nazis to justify an invasian, just as I don't believe Bush should have made false accusations of weapons of mass destruction to justify an invasion of Iraq.

Quote:

While Ukraine has a far-right fringe, including the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion and Right Sector, analysts have described Putin's rhetoric as greatly exaggerating the influence of far-right groups within Ukraine; there is no widespread support for the ideology in the government, military, or electorate. The Poroshenko administration enforced the law condemning the Soviet Union and the Nazis in 2015. Ukrainian president Zelenskyy, who is Jewish, stated that his grandfather served in the Soviet army fighting against the Nazis; three of his family members died in the Holocaust




After the Soviet Union fell Donbas faced severe economic decline with increased unemployment and more organised crime.

Civil unrest became apparent during the term of Yanukovych when the Maidan Revolution took place and he was removed from office after ordering the murder of dozens of protestors.

I don't think it was helpful for Putin to fan the flames of the seperatist movement in Donbar with atrocity propaganda such as children being crucified in the town square.

Quote:

Media portrayals of the Ukrainian crisis, including 2014 unrest and the 2014 Ukrainian revolution following the Euromaidan movement, differed widely between Ukrainian, Western and Russian media. The Russian, the Ukrainian, and the Western media were all, to various degrees, accused of propagandizing, and of waging an information war during their coverage of the events. Russian channels were repeatedly criticized for the use of misleading images, false narratives, misrepresentation, suppression, and fabricated news stories, such as a child's crucifixion and the death of a 10-year-old in shelling. The BBC reported that Russian state television "appears to employ techniques of psychological conditioning designed to excite extreme emotions of aggression and hatred in the viewer", which, according to The Guardian, is part of a coordinated "informational-psychological war operation".

A regular theme in the Russian media was that the Ukrainian army, which has many Russian-speaking members, was committing "genocide" against Russian-speakers and that they strongly desired Russia to "protect" them against Kyve. This presentation contradicted a poll showing that less than 20% of eastern residents wanted Russia's protection. They supported Russia's denials of involvement in the Crimean crisis, until Vladimir Putin boasted about the key role of Russian soldiers, and continue denying its involvement in the war in the Donbas region of Ukraine, despite evidence that Russia regularly shelled across the border.

https://epd.eu/wp-content/uploads/PIN-AgainstPropaganda_CCL_MF_FinalView_withoutLogo.pdf




I think it's clear that in 2014 Russia took advantage of the internal political crisis of Kyve to launch a coordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine. Russia provided volunteers and materials while employing disinformation and conventional military support for the seperatist movements fighting against Ukraine.

Quote:

https://geneva.usmission.gov/2014/04/14/evidence-of-russian-support-for-destabilization-of-ukraine/




To put it blunty, it was also apparent that Putin had began using special operational forces (peace keepers) to invade another country and violate its territorial integrity.

Quote:

https://press.armywarcollege.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2917&context=parameters




The Minsk agreement sought to deescalate rising tensions but Putin included controlling stipulations that would remove Ukraines autonomy if they accepted.

Quote:

The 2015 Minsk agreements called for Ukraine to reintegrate the separatist regions by giving them broad autonomy enshrined in its constitution. The Kremlin hoped that by doing so it would create a permanent pro-Russian lever of influence within Ukraine’s government that would act as a veto on the country joining the European Union or NATO.

Ukraine refused to fulfill that part of the Minsk deal while Russian troops remained on the separatists’ territory, seeing the separatist governments as puppets of the Kremlin.

After Russia recognized the "republics," the puppet governments appealed for help from Russia, creating a false pretext for the Kremlin to invade. Putin accused Ukraine of failing to implement the Minsk agreements to justify Russia recognizing the separatist "republics" as independent.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/ukraine-separatist-regions-crux-russian-invasion/story?id=83084803




Putin tried to claim the conflict was entirely an internal civil war in Ukraine, he even refused to acknowledge Russian troops were in separatist areas, which he later recanted and admitted to. 

Quote:

https://khpg.org/en/1476316494




And overall the effect of Russian sponsorship for the creation of two republics within a sovereign country is difficult to undermind as an influence on the rise of the seperatist movement.

Quote:

Abstract: This essay argues that historical and identity factors, economic fears and alienation from the new government in Kyiv were only part of the reason for the rise of the separatist movement in the Donbas, Ukraine, in the spring of 2014. They set a baseline, but one not high enough to account for the creation of two mini-‘Republics’ and a prolonged war, without considering the effect of Russian sponsorship and the role of local elites, mainly from the literal and metaphorical ‘Family’ of former President Viktor Yanukovych.




Quote:

This essay argues that identity factors are an insufficient explanation. ‘Preexisting popular allegiances’ were not that different in the Donbas (see the two sections on identity below). Local political factors were hugely important, but ‘state incapacitation’, and even more so state collapse, is an exaggeration. Parts of the state did not operate. The new authorities in Kyiv were incompetent or distracted. But the story also involves the defection of key parts of the state and the penetration of others. And, as resource mobilisation theory would predict (Smith & Wilson 1997), more was needed in terms of resources and elite leadership for the separatist movement to develop. And also to point it in the direction it took—the initial mood in the Donbas was febrile and even contradictory, and compatible with several possible outcomes.

Other commentators see outside factors as key (Mitrokhin 2015a, 2015b): namely Russia, which played the key role in stitching together a coalition of local forces. Local actors would not have acted as they did without Russian support. Arel and Driscoll have cited the work of Regan (2000) that two thirds of seemingly intrastate civil wars in fact involve ‘intervention’ (more serious than mere influence) by third party foreign powers—and are still civil wars.2 But there is a world of difference between joining in a civil conflict or civil war and either starting it or enabling its escalation. On its own, the Donbas rebellion was actually a triple failure. Without sufficient Russian support, the first attempt at revolt was smouldering away in March and early April 2014, with several nasty ‘flare-ups’, but was deemed insufficiently incendiary to warrant the attempt by Igor Girkin’s special forces to fan the flames from the middle of April. The attempts at revolt in Kharkiv and Odesa at the same time were less successful, and there was no broad rebellion in ‘Novorossiia’, a variable Russian term, but most often meaning the whole of eastern and southern Ukraine. And finally, the rebels were being pushed back by Ukrainian forces in the summer and were saved from further reverse by the massive Russian escalation in August 2014.

Historical and identity factors have been extensively cited as key explanations of the separatist movement in the Donbas. However, neither the creation of the DNR and LNR nor the war would have happened without resources. These came from Russia and from the Yanukovych ‘Family’ and some allied oligarchs. The changes undergone by the local state apparatus also made it much easier for the Russians to intervene; but there was no total state collapse—more a combination of state weakness, neglect by Kyiv, defections and disloyalty, the hollowing out of the system by Yanukovych ‘Family’ elites both still in the Donbas and in Russia, and decisions that backfired, like disbanding the Berkut and dismissing so many from the local police. The local state was weak, but far from collapsed; it was also permissive and enabling.

Local opinion was malleable to an extent, allowing the leadership of the DNR and LNR to increase their initial support. But their leaders were never an autonomous force, and were repeatedly changed at Russian instigation. The war that began in 2014 was not a civil war with foreign intervention, but a process catalysed and escalated by local elites and by Russia, with local foot-soldiers. The last word could be given to President Lukashenka of Belarus, who declared in October 2014, ‘let’s be honest, the days of the DNR and LNR would have been numbered long ago without Russia’

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09668136.2016.1176994




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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27720153 - 04/03/22 10:08 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Pretty much everything you said above is just CIA talking points that have been debunked previously, but I don't recognize your username, and assume you missed it.

Too much for one post, but I'll start by pointing out that the coup in Ukraine was backed by the US and we put in our own puppet Government.

Don't believe it?  Here's the recording of Victoria Nuland saying who we would put in charge (why does the US prefer coups to democratic elections???):

OH SHIT!  It's been censored by YouTube, along with the video of John McCain pumping people up to overthrow their elected President, who was a little too Russia friendly for the US's liking.

Ok, I found another user that has it:



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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27720224 - 04/03/22 11:18 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pretty much everything you said above is just CIA talking points that have been debunked previously




I mean you haven't provided a reference for the claim in your first line so I don't think it's in context.

Yeah man, the US does a lot of foreign intervention and regime change too, I am frankly aware of that.

The tendrils of their campaigns to meddle in foreign affairs seem endless, even in just the Balkans.

Quote:

This was the case in the 2004–5 Orange Revolution, where foreign NGOs changed little about Ukraine’s corruption and authoritarianism, but achieved the crucial goal of nudging Ukraine’s foreign policy westward. As the liberal Center for American Progress put it that year:

Did Americans meddle in the internal affairs of Ukraine? Yes. The American agents of influence would prefer different language to describe their activities — democratic assistance, democracy promotion, civil society support, etc. — but their work, however labeled, seeks to influence political change in Ukraine.

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea




Quote:

According to one study, the U.S. performed at least 81 overt and covert known interventions in foreign elections during the period 1946–2000. Another study found that the U.S. engaged in 64 covert and six overt attempts at regime change during the Cold War.

Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the United States has led or supported wars to determine the governance of a number of countries. Stated U.S. aims in these conflicts have included fighting the War on Terror, as in the Afghan War, or removing dictatorial and hostile regimes, as in the Iraq War.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09636412.2020.1693620?journalCode=fsst20




Quote:

The United States helped topple an allied state’s government. While that sounds like an anachronism better suited to the Cold War era, it is in fact a summary of events that transpired in Kosovo two months ago. In brief, Kosovo’s coalition government did not survive the no-confidence motion in parliament in late March, and the now-acting prime minister, Albin Kurti, has placed the blame squarely on the administration of President Donald Trump and its special envoy for Serbia and Kosovo peace negotiations, Richard Grenell. Kurti charges that Grenell was pushing for a quick deal between Serbia and Kosovo, which would include controversial land swaps between the two. When Kurti came out against the deal, the United States supported his opponents to remove him from office. This allegation has since been supported by regional leaders, analysts, and even some US legislators.

All of this was possible because the United States — for better or for worse — still occupies an indispensable role in the Western Balkans. This is a direct consequence of the US-led interventions in the 1990s which have cemented its status as a regional security guarantor and an arbiter. The long shadow of humanitarian interventionism turned problematic when it became apparent that Trump’s desire to broker a peace deal between Serbia and Kosovo is motivated by this year’s US elections, and the terms of the deal upend longstanding US policy.

US involvement in the Western Balkans peaked two decades ago. However, it is abundantly clear how the effects of interventions and the unfinished business of 1990s still place the United States in a prime position to influence and even control regional politics. The Trump administration has become fully aware of this and is unfortunately using it to help improve the president’s meagre deal-making record at the expense of regional stability.

https://www.ussc.edu.au/analysis/americas-destabilising-involvement-in-serbia-kosovo-talks




Quote:

However, many observers in Europe and the United States have been concerned that political
stability in the Western Balkans, sometimes referred to as Europe’s “inner courtyard,” remains
tenuous. Several of these countries have experienced governmental and political crises,
sometimes involving third-party interference, stagnating economies, high unemployment, and an
exodus of people from the region. These crises have raised cautions that the continuation of or
sudden increase in these factors could provide a vacuum in which outside political meddling,
transnational crime, radicalization, or terrorism could flourish

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44955/9




Quote:

Outside of fiscal policy, American influence was evident in executive positions. In September 2002, it was announced that the Military Court in Belgrade was to press charges against Momčilo Perišić, who was the vice president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the time, for espionage in the favour of the CIA. The trial never took place, although upon his release from The Hague on February 28, 2013, it was announced by Perišić's lawyer Novak Lukić that his client was "ready to be judged" on the same 2002 accusations of espionage. As of 2015 no further investigation has taken place.

https://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2002&mm=09&dd=30&nav_category=16&nav_id=71591




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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27735022 - 04/14/22 08:43 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Seriously it's not a Left/Right thing, I'm centrist, but Albanese is like a supermarket manager or something. LOL we don't need that in power.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: psilocybinmansions]
    #27735043 - 04/14/22 08:52 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Is Albanese any different to Morrison economically?

Like I hear Albanese is for expanding medicare after it has been cut, and maybe helping with childcare costs. Apart from that, does anyone know what he stands for?

He seems a hollow character imo.

Are the costs of a university education going to be discussed?

Will there be a corruption watchdog at last?

For me, the idea of holding politicians accountable for their actions and financial decisions is no.1.

I want donations and actions to be completely transparent, no dark money, no potential quid pro quo arrangements that cant be seen clearly.

I want transparency and accountability from my government and I will vote greens because I believe there align with this view and agenda more so than the others.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27735414 - 04/15/22 04:59 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I think the biggest policy for Labor is aged care, the 25% wage increase for healthcare workers, most likely as it's the biggest vote grabber.

Increased subsidies for childcare, again a vote grabber.

And pushing the renewable energy target and emissions reduction target higher.

Even though I'll be voting Labor I concede they have a weak agenda and I'm fed up with both sides but more so the LNP. Also Shorten got thrashed last time with over ambitious policies and it shows, Labor's policies are thin on the ground.

I'm hoping that penciling in the Greens second will help them into minority government and start pushing Labor towards things like a Federal ICAC, getting rid of student debt and doing more on affordable housing.

I think minority governments get the best results and more action.

:ancientaliens:

Also, if Clive Palmer and Craig Kelly could somehow both get hit by a bus simultaneously that'd be awesome.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27735416 - 04/15/22 05:02 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I don't believe in equity for student loans, more so equality as in a 10k grant for each student seeing as there are discrepencies in the cost of different courses that are sometimes related to the success of completing semesters, from 20k to 200k, so I have some ambiguity on the issue. I know one person that has failed 8 semester courses and continued to attend.

Anything on accountability or transparency for politicians and their donations in your concerns?


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27735433 - 04/15/22 05:22 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

That's a fair point on 'career university students' my main reasoning with that idea is linked to young people buying a house and I feel it's one way to help with that.

Accountability transparency etc? Of course. Look at the bun fight over the distribution of flood recovery funds, that's taking pork barrelling to a new level.

Political donations is interesting especially when it comes to someone like Clive Palmer, like how do you fix that one?? :facepalm3:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27735466 - 04/15/22 06:18 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

We could push to pass a statue outlawing certain practices that allow undue influence from donors and their lobbyists.

etc,
Quote:

STOP POLITICAL BRIBERY

Make it illegal for politicians to take money from lobbyists.

Ban lobbyist bundling.

Close the revolving door.

Prevent politicians from fundraising during working hours.


END SECRET MONEY

Immediately disclose political money online.

Stop donors from hiding behind secret-money groups.


FIX OUR BROKEN ELECTIONS

End gerrymandering.

Let all voters participate in open primaries.

Let voters rank their top candidates, avoid “spoilers.”

Automatic voter registration.

Vote at home or at the polls.

Reasonable term limits.

Change how elections are funded.


ENFORCE THE RULES

Crack down on super PACs.

Eliminate lobbyist loopholes.

Strengthen anti-corruption enforcement.


https://anticorruptionact.org/whats-in-the-act/




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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27735471 - 04/15/22 06:26 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Without clicking the link is that a U.S. site?

I don't think a few of those points apply here. I mean look at the rise if pre poll voting, it's huge, I doubt we would even need 'vote at home'?

But getting back to Clive Palmer, how do you stop a billionaire funding his own bullshit with his own money?

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27735525 - 04/15/22 07:32 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

They were some US suggestions, but which ones don't apply?

There are similar Australian ones for sure.

I don't think you stop the ads, instead you prevent him from having undue influence on the direction of certain legislation, to stop him being able to tip the scale in regard to bills that relate to say regulations on mining companies. The point is I think, he shouldn't have political influence outside of advertisements.

The underlined in the 'Financing Political Parties' section would likely act to reduce the effect of his money. 

Holding him accountable for his statements instead of providing an uninterupted platform with softball questions could go a long way too, but that's what legacy media does because they don't want to upset him and lose access. The media part is a tough one because it's difficult to move the overton window that has been engrained by Murdoch.

Campaign finance reform in the direction of publically funded campaigns I think would also help in regard to advertising, I'm not saying that would stop those kind and the amount of ads Palmer is running, but if the funds were public, I think there'd be more thought put in to the ads.

Quote:

Restoring Integrity to Politics

Federal Independent Commission against Corruption

An Australian Progressives’ Federal ICAC will:
Include terms of reference and powers to take legal action against politicians, senior public servants, and those engaging in corrupt conduct while in receipt of government funding; and
Include powers for cancelling post-political career entitlements, with the exception of superannuation, and
Have funding guaranteed and protected from cuts due to party-political intervention; and
Include establishment clauses for retrospective powers to investigate suspicious conduct in all current and former officials and representatives from 2008 onward.

Financing Political Parties

Real-time donations declarations
Ending corporate donations
Requiring individual donors to disclose membership to advocacy, lobbyist, peak bodies, union and other civic organisations when donating significant sums to a political party.
Banning ‘cash-for-access’ events
To compensate for these restrictions; expand public funding of political campaigns.


Journalist and Whistleblower protections

Strengthening legal protections for all whistleblowers in both public and private spheres against being publicly named or retaliated against; and

Secure channels for anonymously reporting corrupt or illegal conduct; and

Legislative protections for journalists undertaking public interest journalism; and

Preserving the Public Interest defence against defamation retaliation by individuals accused of improper conduct.

Provide clearly defined internal disclosure processes within the institutions of Parliament and government, and guidance for the private sector.

Federal Parliamentarian Code of Conduct

Establish a binding and enforceable Federal Parliamentarian Code of Conduct, modeled after the current Australian Public Service Framework.

To coincide with this we will establish an associated charter of Parliamentarian Values.

State/Territory Corruption Commissions

Enact legislation to provide wider and more consistent powers across Australia's  anti-corruption bodies.

Preventing Corrupt Conduct

Our corruption prevention policies include:

A standing advisory committee of public servants, not parliamentarians, for review of proposed anti-corruption bills and evaluation of the outcomes of ICAC investigations.

Enabling anti-corruption commissions to review former Ministers’ decisions where a perceived conflict of interest can be seen with post-office appointments.

Investing in analytics/reporting disclosure technology and powers to identify potential sources of corruption.

Protection of anti-corruption commissions’ funding arrangements to prevent politically motivated funding cuts.

Seeking public agreement with other parties to have appointments exempted from political interference and funding independence.

Truth in Political Advertising

Elections are hard fought with campaign platforms and rival parties’ counter-claims trying to persuade voters to see the worst in each side. Lies and character assassinations in political advertising have the effect of destroying trust in the political class. Media and independent fact checkers face a constant backlog of countering misinformation designed solely for the 24 hour news cycle aimed at creating an emotional reaction without any basis in fact.

The Australian Progressives are investigating ways to enforce truth in political advertising that speeds up the ability of fact checkers to stop misinformation being left unchallenged and proactively prevent lies in campaigns without hampering freedom of speech.

https://www.progressives.org.au/integrity




Quote:

Some topics remain to be addressed in Australia in relation to domestic and foreign bribery. These include:

  • implementation of the Foreign Bribery Report on Australia's foreign bribery laws;

  • ongoing material resourcing for the AFP to investigate, and the CDPP to prosecute, serious financial crime, including foreign bribery;

  • enacting the proposed reforms to Section 70 of the Criminal Code, including the introduction of the corporate offence of failing to prevent foreign bribery;

  • abolishing the facilitation payment defence in Section 70.4 of the Criminal Code;

  • introducing a Commonwealth DPA scheme for serious Commonwealth financial offences;

  • giving effect to changes to the Commonwealth Prosecution Policy to reflect the amended foreign bribery offences and the model DPA scheme to promote self-reporting of potential criminal conduct;

  • reforming the laws on corporate criminal responsibility and other matters highlighted in the ALRC Report;

  • and from a domestic perspective, the establishment of a robust, independent anti-corruption commission to cover the entirety of the Commonwealth government, its direct and indirect agencies and any entity or person who uses or spends Commonwealth money (provided in any manner, grant, donation or funding arrangement).


Whether these reforms achieve the desired effect of changing corporate and individual conduct remains to be seen. All the reforms in the world will have little impact in the boardroom if they are not followed through with robust, public enforcement. That still remains the biggest challenge in Australia tackling domestic and foreign bribery and corruption.

https://thelawreviews.co.uk/title/the-anti-bribery-and-anti-corruption-review/australia




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Edited by sudly (04/15/22 07:47 AM)

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27736245 - 04/15/22 05:00 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
They were some US suggestions, but which ones don't apply?





Only a couple that seemed obviously U.S.

Quote:

Let all voters participate in open primaries.

Let voters rank their top candidates, avoid “spoilers.”

Automatic voter registration.

Crack down on super PACs




Other than that I think they're mostly valid points that are worthy of serious debate that won't likely get any attention from our dumbed down media.

For instance, as much as I don't like Scott Morrison for his climate change denial we have to suffer endless stupid commentary on whether or not people trust him. It's debate we don't need , that goes nowhere and puts people off listening when there are way more important issues.

And Albanese's gaff on the unemployment figures, like yes he should've been able to name them but what does it really prove? I'm in my 50's and the amount of stuff I can't remember is frightening some days :lol:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27736338 - 04/15/22 06:42 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I just got an email from George Christensen saying he's joining One Nation.

It's funny, I thought George gave me the boot after I had an email discussion with him, but he must've forgot to delete me :lol:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27743131 - 04/20/22 06:10 AM (2 years, 29 days ago)

On the topic of potics in Australia, I have the feeling that Australians are well and truly over being lied to by politicians and if the next Prime Minister were to tell just one lie there would be a massive revolt.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Painkiller]
    #27745455 - 04/21/22 03:50 PM (2 years, 28 days ago)

What's everyone's thoughts on China's involvement in The Solomon Islands?

Is this the new 'Cuba on our doorstep' moment or just more ignorant short sighted diplomacy from our government?

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27746578 - 04/22/22 10:16 AM (2 years, 27 days ago)



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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27746629 - 04/22/22 11:00 AM (2 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

It’s as if there is no comprehension whatsoever as to why the Solomon Islands may not consent to be under the hegemony of Australia and the United States, and why it is obviously going to prefer a strategy of “hedging” to maximize political space and opportunity for itself, rather than being forced to exclusively pick one side. This is demonstrative of the elitist mindset which dominates these countries.
It is therefore lost on Australia why the Solomon Islands, a non-white former British protectorate (the British Queen is, to this day, also the Queen of the Solomon Islands, for that matter), might not want to be completely dominated by Canberra, and by extension, the US. This is why scores and scores of US and Australian officials visiting the island and mounting diplomatic pressure haven’t been able to change the mind of the Islands’ government.





:awesomenod:

I wish more Australians would look at things from a different perspective and take other countries legitimacy into account.

Have a listen to this interview though from Foreign Affairs Minister Marise Payne, it's surprisingly level headed, which is something I wouldn't normally say about her.

The hysteria around this story is actually being driven from journalists and in this case, Leigh Sales from the ABC.

It seems even the traditionally left leaning ABC has caught this weird type of Nationalism sweeping the world that's normally reserved for the right. Marice Payne is someone I'd class as fairly conservative.

https://www.abc.net.au/7.30/china-solomon-islands-deal-deeply-disappointing:/13848380

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27752209 - 04/26/22 02:07 PM (2 years, 23 days ago)

I don't think Abc rn radio does very good pushback.. there's one lady that kinds does, but only 2 or 3 times before the issue is entirely deflected.

I like abc but they're not a left pariah imo.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27753067 - 04/27/22 08:18 AM (2 years, 22 days ago)

I like the ABC as well.

The problem I see at the moment is the tactless and belligerent political approach when it comes to how we discuss our relationship with China, from both the LNP as well as Labor as well as the many idiots in the media. It's dangerous.

I'm so disgusted by the Labor Party's comments on the Solomon Island's deal with China that I doubt I'll even vote for them this time and instead vote Green in both the House of Reps and the Senate.

If you're interested in listening to some excellent commentary have a listen to ex diplomat John Lander.

:mindblown:

This is the type of commentary and discussion we need!



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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27753150 - 04/27/22 09:52 AM (2 years, 22 days ago)

Very good video, thanks!  :thumbup:

These types of analyses are what the mainstream news lacks.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27754445 - 04/28/22 02:14 AM (2 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the ABC as well.

The problem I see at the moment is the tactless and belligerent political approach when it comes to how we discuss our relationship with China, from both the LNP as well as Labor as well as the many idiots in the media. It's dangerous.

I'm so disgusted by the Labor Party's comments on the Solomon Island's deal with China that I doubt I'll even vote for them this time and instead vote Green in both the House of Reps and the Senate.

If you're interested in listening to some excellent commentary have a listen to ex diplomat John Lander.

:mindblown:

This is the type of commentary and discussion we need!







I don't doubt collateral damage happens in wars through malicious acts or otherwise. 

Quite often in war both sides have forces within the same vicinity, and even being a few kilometres apart, artillery can be used. To say it can not be Russian artillery because there were Russians in the region does not make sense.

And at 5:40 he says they've lied about Ukraine not using cluster munitions when there is a guardian article I've linked that suggests both sides may have used them.

The cherry on top is at 4:20-4:30 when he says, "most of the world has signed a treaty banning cluster munitions but not ukraine".

Because he purposely leaves out that Russia and the US have not signed onto the cluster munitions ban either.

As I see it, the host in the video you linked provided conjecture on there being a sole side responsible for the use of cluster munitions. Conjecture that Russians cannot have used artillery because they were 'in the region'. A mischaracterisation of positions held by the guardian. And a brazen omission of information in regard to which nations signed on to the ban of cluster munitions.

This is not what I consider good journalistic integrity and unfortunately this is a kind of practice legacy media tends to take part in too.

From neutrality biases, to omissions of information to straight up opinion pieces and conjecture. I don't think this meets my standard of accountability.

Quote:

Evidence collected by the New York-based Human Rights Watch suggests both government forces and pro-Russian separatists have used cluster munitions in eastern Ukraine.

A spokesman for the Kiev government’s military operation against the uprising in the east denied the accusations. The rebels were not available to comment.




Quote:

Human Rights Watch (HRW) said in a statement it had carried out a week-long investigation in eastern Ukraine, where more than 3,700 people have been killed in fighting since April, and documented widespread use of cluster munitions.

It said it could not conclusively determine responsibility for many of the attacks but “the evidence points to Ukrainian government forces’ responsibility for several cluster munition attacks” this month on Donetsk, the rebels’ main stronghold.

Human Rights Watch said: “While not conclusive, circumstances indicate that anti-government forces might also have been responsible for the use of cluster munitions.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/cluster-bombs-ukraine-human-rights-watch





Quote:

In the rush of war, no one bothers to prove themselves




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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27754495 - 04/28/22 04:17 AM (2 years, 21 days ago)

Shit shit shit! I posted the wrong video! That's from the Ukraine thread. Sorry about that :hatsoff:

I know this is long but it's worth the hour investment of your time, put it on while you're having dinner or something.
This is the one from ex diplomat John Lander... damn it.



The one below from Richard Medhurst highlights the situation very well.

I'm completely serious when I say we are living very dangerously at this point in time... we need another Gough Whitlam! :sad: we have no decent leadership in this country :mad2: we are being used by the U.S. government and the insane bit is we seem oblivious to the fact it's happening!


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27756169 - 04/29/22 06:24 AM (2 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I don't doubt collateral damage happens in wars through malicious acts or otherwise. 

Quite often in war both sides have forces within the same vicinity, and even being a few kilometres apart, artillery can be used. To say it can not be Russian artillery because there were Russians in the region does not make sense.

And at 5:40 he says they've lied about Ukraine not using cluster munitions when there is a guardian article I've linked that suggests both sides may have used them.

The cherry on top is at 4:20-4:30 when he says, "most of the world has signed a treaty banning cluster munitions but not ukraine".

Because he purposely leaves out that Russia and the US have not signed onto the cluster munitions ban either.

As I see it, the host in the video you linked provided conjecture on there being a sole side responsible for the use of cluster munitions. Conjecture that Russians cannot have used artillery because they were 'in the region'. A mischaracterisation of positions held by the guardian. And a brazen omission of information in regard to which nations signed on to the ban of cluster munitions.

This is not what I consider good journalistic integrity and unfortunately this is a kind of practice legacy media tends to take part in too.

From neutrality biases, to omissions of information to straight up opinion pieces and conjecture. I don't think this meets my standard of accountability.

Quote:

Evidence collected by the New York-based Human Rights Watch suggests both government forces and pro-Russian separatists have used cluster munitions in eastern Ukraine.

A spokesman for the Kiev government’s military operation against the uprising in the east denied the accusations. The rebels were not available to comment.




Quote:

Human Rights Watch (HRW) said in a statement it had carried out a week-long investigation in eastern Ukraine, where more than 3,700 people have been killed in fighting since April, and documented widespread use of cluster munitions.

It said it could not conclusively determine responsibility for many of the attacks but “the evidence points to Ukrainian government forces’ responsibility for several cluster munition attacks” this month on Donetsk, the rebels’ main stronghold.

Human Rights Watch said: “While not conclusive, circumstances indicate that anti-government forces might also have been responsible for the use of cluster munitions.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/cluster-bombs-ukraine-human-rights-watch





Quote:

In the rush of war, no one bothers to prove themselves







I wasn't intending to post that video in here but seeing as you've responded I'll say you raise reasonable criticisms of the article. We can discuss it in this thread if you want or in the Ukraine thread as I posted the same video... doh!

Also, your link didn't work. Was this the page you intended to link? From April 25th.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/24/dozens-bucha-civilians-killed-flechettes-metal-darts-russian-artillery



The Guardian quoted parts of The Washington Post's article from April 18th.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/18/flechette-projectile-ukraine-russia/

A couple of things stand out to me if we are looking at 'journalistic integrity' I'll highlight what I see is conjecture;
Quote:

Neil Gibson, a munitions expert at the U.K.-based Fenix Insights group. The flechette recovered from Chmut’s yard probably came from a 122 mm 3Sh1 artillery round, he said, which is among a few Russian munitions that carry the projectiles.




In other words he's guessing.


Quote:

Gibson has reviewed photos of those artillery rounds left behind by Russian troops but has not seen their documented use in Ukraine, he said. Maj. Volodymyr Fito, a spokesperson for Ukrainian land forces command, said the Ukrainian military does not use shells with fléchettes.




If their use is undocumented then it's more guesswork.

As for Volodymyr Fito's statement well that's an outright lie according to reports from earlier in the conflict :shrug: yet The Washington Post reports it without digging any deeper, instead happy to take the Ukrainian propaganda on face value.

The rest of the Washington Post article is crap.
Short stories from a woman finding some in her backyard and 'experts' relating the use of flechette rounds in World War 1 and their use by the U.S. in Vietnam and Israel using them on civilians in Gaza, but nothing actually relating to any evidence of their use by Russia.
All of this blended together to make it sound newsworthy... but it ain't.


The Guardian also quotes themselves in another article from April 22nd saying 
Quote:

The Guardian found a Russian cluster rocket used to prop cluster munitions near a farm village in Hostomel and allegedly launched by a BM-30 Smerch.


but who did they ask for verification?... Bellingcat !

Quote:

Bellingcat, a nonprofit online journalism collective dedicated to war crime investigations, which has reviewed some of the pictures collected by the Guardian, confirmed the presence of tail fins of RBK-500 cluster bombs with PTAB-1M submunitions and cluster rocket, launched by BM-30 Smerch




And further down the page
Quote:

Tail fins of an RBK-500 cluster bomb, post deployment, unknown submunition type found in Borodyanka




And further
Quote:

According to the New York Times, Ukrainian troops used a cluster munition rocket in early March in Husarivka, a village in the east of the country that they were trying to retake.




:doublefacepalm:


Here's one last thing to consider. Ukraine has been desperately trying to drag NATO/The West into this conflict with bogus claims of chemical weapons threats, nuclear threats, staging civilian deaths in Bucha as murders by Russia etc etc.... what makes you think this is any different? 
:shrug:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27756834 - 04/29/22 05:16 PM (2 years, 20 days ago)

I do think calls for US to create a no fly zone was absolutely bonkers and a request for WW3.

As for the cluster munitions, there is fog of war, neither side has signed a ban on cluster munitions, and there's seems reason to think both could use them.

I don't think the fog of war can be cleared here.

I might watch the other video when time allows.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27757227 - 04/30/22 05:51 AM (2 years, 19 days ago)

Cool :thumbup: it's all commentary.

I looked further into the Australian Citizens Party and was shocked to be honest.

Wiki painted them as a right wing party yet they have spoken out against Guantanamo Bay, Pine Gap, the Pacific Solution, are totally against this war with China idea, they encourage immigration plus a heap of others. There's only a couple of their policies like their climate change denial I absolutely don't agree with.

Crazy times indeed.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27758170 - 04/30/22 10:31 PM (2 years, 18 days ago)

I think this is an interesting take on Ukraine from Cenk Uygur.

This aside I'll be looking at those links later on, I'm on a road trip atm and got photos of a Spotted Bowerbird!! Very exciting :grin:

Quote:

I'm conflicted on it because I know that if my country was attacked, and civilians were killed, family members are killed, I'd see red and I wouldn't give a damn who we're bombing in Russia.

Oh have you been bomed? I should care? When im bombed you shouldn't care? But when you're bombed I should care? No deal, no deal at all.

That's how I would feel emotionally, but it's true that Ukrainians have to be very careful about hitting military targets and not civilian targets, because hitting Russian civilians doesn't make you any better, and that's a war crime and they shouldn't do it and all it's going to do is unfortunately unleash propaganda that might say kill all the Ukranians, and that's not going to help anybody.

We keep assuming that when Putin is considering and saying they have nukes, he's hinted at it several times, his paid propagandist on TV which he clearly speaks to, have now threatened it multiple times. We keep assuming oh they're not going to do that, we also thought they wouldn't really invade Ukraine, so I think we're underestimating the threat of nuclear holocaust, and that is where we are.

- Cenk Uygur 




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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27758862 - 05/01/22 03:10 PM (2 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I think this is an interesting take on Ukraine from Cenk Uygur.

This aside I'll be looking at those links later on, I'm on a road trip atm and got photos of a Spotted Bowerbird!! Very exciting :grin:

Quote:

I'm conflicted on it because I know that if my country was attacked, and civilians were killed, family members are killed, I'd see red and I wouldn't give a damn who we're bombing in Russia.









There's one problem with what he's saying though. He has completely missed the first 8 years where The Ukraine government were the ones dropping the bombs on their own civilians :shrug:

Nice work getting a photo of the bowerbird, I believe they aren't easy to spot, is that correct?

I'm in Hervey Bay, between the Botanic Gardens and the beach, we are spoilt for birdlife... and fruit bats :lol: there's a massive colony about 200mtrs from my house, and whoa they stink!
https://gretavanderrol.net/2020/02/08/the-ospreys-at-hervey-bay/
https://fraser-tours.com/article/bats-fraser-island

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27759042 - 05/01/22 05:46 PM (2 years, 17 days ago)

China is financing infrastructure projects around the world in what could be called new age colonialism, where instead of brute forcing their way around the world, China is essentially gifting other countries with infrastructure for access, loyalty and trade.

Australia hasn't batted an eyelid on climate change and for many island nations it is literally their biggest threat to national security. I wouldn't be surprised to hear they cut some sort of deal on long term flood prevention or something of the sort.

How would we react if NZ tried to turn Tasmania into a republic? Bar whatever propaganda lead to it.

When the airport is attacked, 3 helicopters and a plane have already been shot down, dozens of soldiers killed, and calls to withdraw are ignored.

Ukraine tried to defend itself, it did mess up, it did kill civilians.

When you're given a limited hand, I think it's reasonable to look more thoroughly in to why you are being given a limited hand, if it is merrited, and if it could have been avoided, or an alternative could have been found in the first place.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27759630 - 05/02/22 07:22 AM (2 years, 17 days ago)

Hmmm I've got no reason so far to think that President Sogavare has taken any bribes but corruption and misuse of the public's money are a problem for many developing nations.

Remember the 40 Maserati's PNG bought for the APEC summit? It turns out more than 300 luxury cars loaned to delegates and officials are unaccounted for !

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/24/papua-new-guinea-has-sold-just-two-of-the-43-luxury-cars-imported-for-apec

China is very good at exercising soft power and of course they want something in return but is it really sinister? I don't think so.

The U.S. government have military bases dotted throughout the entire world, I think it's obnoxious that they(and the Aus government) are threatening The Solomon Islands, especially when the agreement doesn't even say anything about any military bases being built!

And ffs they are 2000km away from us.

Also remember when the N.T. government leased the Port of Darwin to the Chinese company Landbridge? :lol: talk about hypocrisy.


In regards N.Z. turning Tassie into a Republic(that made me laugh too) if Canberra had been bombing the Taswegians for 8 years and they voted to declare themselves independent would anyone really blame them? :shrug:

I wonder if we could get New Zealand to invade Western Australia? :rolleyes: :wink: :grin: just kidding.... sort of

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27761575 - 05/03/22 03:02 PM (2 years, 16 days ago)

Ahhh, a political thread for those sharing the same sunny, venomous, dangerous, beautiful piece of earth I do! Hooray!


But Christ where does one even begin? With the near completely broken “choice” presented to us by the looming election? That’ll do. For me, knowing better, it seems purely a personality choice as labour is liberal lite and, should they be elected, we will still be the lap dogs of that lone, corrupt, war-fed, hypocritical empirical power. Personally I want scomo removed for being as transparent as water and I want Dutton to crawl back into the fell gollum cave from which he came….he is by far the most poisonous person I have ever witnessed in Australian politics (yes he’s worse than miss Hanson) and he’s legitimately dangerous besides).

I find myself as a man without faith in the major parties, and I do not support the greens on every issue. Our national broadcaster is becoming a tepid, supine collection of woke parrots (look at the morning show now for goodness sake. I want to cut my ears off as I came here to get away from channel 7 and 9) whose bias, both political and geopolitical, is naked to anyone with perception.

I’ll probably vote labour, merely because the other band of criminals are so distasteful and deaf and dumb and blind that I’d like some other band of the same to try it out.

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Milleresque] * 1
    #27762350 - 05/04/22 04:00 AM (2 years, 15 days ago)

Hehehe good post :thumbup:

We have such shit leadership in this country and the media aren't helping either. It's like a popularity contest half the time and the serious debate gets sidelined often.

I've been checking out The Australian Citizens Party recently and got in contact with them... someone rang me back and we had a chat!

I gave them some cash and was sent some reading material and signed up for their newsletter.
One of the links they forwarded was one of Richard Medhurst's interviews with Scott Ritter!, which I was already familiar with.

They have some decent ideas :shrug:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27765363 - 05/06/22 01:14 AM (2 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Hmmm I've got no reason so far to think that President Sogavare has taken any bribes but corruption and misuse of the public's money are a problem for many developing nations.

Remember the 40 Maserati's PNG bought for the APEC summit? It turns out more than 300 luxury cars loaned to delegates and officials are unaccounted for !

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/24/papua-new-guinea-has-sold-just-two-of-the-43-luxury-cars-imported-for-apec

China is very good at exercising soft power and of course they want something in return but is it really sinister? I don't think so.

The U.S. government have military bases dotted throughout the entire world, I think it's obnoxious that they(and the Aus government) are threatening The Solomon Islands, especially when the agreement doesn't even say anything about any military bases being built!

And ffs they are 2000km away from us.

Also remember when the N.T. government leased the Port of Darwin to the Chinese company Landbridge? :lol: talk about hypocrisy.


In regards N.Z. turning Tassie into a Republic(that made me laugh too) if Canberra had been bombing the Taswegians for 8 years and they voted to declare themselves independent would anyone really blame them? :shrug:

I wonder if we could get New Zealand to invade Western Australia? :rolleyes: :wink: :grin: just kidding.... sort of




I'm saying that China is doing smart colonialism, or just building ties well. They're not brute forcing all relations, they're making trade partners and doing it effectively imo, so I'm hats off to their essentially economic diplomacy. I don't doubt they've offered the Solomon Islands a good deal and quite often you don't look a gifthorse in the mouth.

There be corruption about alright, I don't know of any country that won't dabble in the ol quid pro quo.

If the Taswegians declared themselves a republic and then tried to overthrow the place with NZ provided weapons, would that not be an important factor to discuss?

The things that preceded the 8 years of battle etc.

This is a pretty uninformed guess atm because I haven't looked into too many specifics of this specific solomon china aus thing, but i wouldn't be suprised if because US doesn't like China and Aus likes US, Aus wants to make US proud by nipping at China, but China is massive compared to Aus and steps on the nipping and Aus gets sad cus China no listen to nibbles and US not impressed with AUs.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Milleresque] * 2
    #27765376 - 05/06/22 01:25 AM (2 years, 13 days ago)

Legacy media outlets are hosted by select pundits who are selected for their willingness and ability to be effective stenographers for the editor in chief of those companies. To be able to maintain a derelict overton window that stiffles meaningful discussion, to be able to deflect, obfuscate and avoid accountability, and to provide a neutrality bias though equating all players and their ideas as honorable.

Liberal, labor, anyone but Greens I don't see a hope of change. Even though I don't agree with everything the greens are for, like equity in regard to tuition (I'm for equality), they're atleast asking for things like a corruption watchdog to finally be implemented which scomo recently said would create a 'public autocracy', if you're able to decipher whatever that actually means.

I mean the dudes out and out anti accountability and it's beyond frustating to hear and see time and time again.

Quote:

Scott Morrison warns overly powerful Icac could turn Australia into ‘public autocracy’

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/04/scott-morrison-warns-overly-powerful-icac-could-turn-australia-into-public-autocracy




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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27773590 - 05/12/22 07:34 AM (2 years, 7 days ago)

For me, there's one ScoMo moment that stands out above all others. He will never be able to bullshit his way around this stunt.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/feb/09/scott-morrison-brings-a-chunk-of-coal-into-parliament-video

His climate credentials are shit, they were always shit and they'll continue to be shit. He's a two faced salesman not a Prime Minister.

I hope people remember the bushfires we went through and the floods we've seen these past 2-3 years and vote these fuckers out. Also, if there's one person I detest more than Morrison, even more than Barnaby Joyce, even more than Tony Abbott! it's Peter Dutton,
that ex cop piece of shit is so fucking stupid he'll have us in a war if they get in again :grrr: Remember when he forgot the boom mic was on and showed everyone what a complete arse he is?


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27774535 - 05/12/22 07:36 PM (2 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

I'm saying that China is doing smart colonialism, or just building ties well. They're not brute forcing all relations, they're making trade partners and doing it effectively imo, so I'm hats off to their essentially economic diplomacy. I don't doubt they've offered the Solomon Islands a good deal and quite often you don't look a gifthorse in the mouth.





Yerp the China bashing needs to stop, it's a loose loose situation, we need smarter diplomacy.


Quote:

sudly said:

If the Taswegians declared themselves a republic and then tried to overthrow the place with NZ provided weapons, would that not be an important factor to discuss?

The things that preceded the 8 years of battle etc.





To use the Taswegians(I love that word) as an example we would need to add something like; after 8 years of Canberra bombing and terrorising Tasmania/ns because they identify as Nuu Zilandurs and speak Nuu Zilandish, Nuu Ziland decided to step in and do something about it.

Would Nuu Ziland be thought of as an invader or a liberator?

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27775335 - 05/13/22 09:27 AM (2 years, 6 days ago)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/13/its-unprecedented-for-dutton-to-label-a-chinese-spy-ship-sailing-outside-australias-territory-an-act-of-aggression

Jesus Christ... this egg head needs to go, he should not be in government, let alone hold the position of Defense Minister. At least The Guardian can see through this blatant dangerous politicisation 9 days out from the Federal election.

I'm so sick of his bullshit war mongering ! :grrr: His statements are picked up by millions here in this country and are whipping up nationalistic hysteria that is stupid, unreasonable, dangerous and uncalled for.

Quote:

The defence minister, Peter Dutton, has called the presence of a Chinese spy ship off the coast of Western Australia “an aggressive act” but his department was far more sober in its assessment and international law experts have poured cold water on the claim.

It is not the first time such Chinese vessels have been in Australia’s exclusive economic zone. So, given we are a week out from an election and the Coalition wants the narrative refocused through a “we live in uncertain times” lens, let’s put the politics aside and step through the facts.




Quote:

Dutton implored any voters concerned about national security or “the situation in the Indo-Pacific” to take the “much safer bet” of Scott Morrison as prime minister and him as defence minister. He said the Australian government was right to speak up “where we see acts of aggression in our own region”.


  :facepalm3:

Quote:

(Prime Minister)Morrison in November 2021 was asked about a Chinese naval vessel in Australia’s exclusive economic zone. There was no talk of “aggressive” acts then.

“They have every right to be there under international maritime law, just like we have every right to be in the South China Sea,” Morrison said at the time.

It was a similar response in July 2021 when a Chinese surveillance ship was heading towards Queensland in an apparent attempt to monitor a joint military exercise with the US.

The People’s Liberation Army general intelligence ship Tianguanxing in the Arafura Sea on 11 July 2021
‘They’re watching us’: Australia tracking Chinese surveillance ship heading towards Queensland
Read more
“We don’t raise any issue about that,” Morrison said. “Of course we watch them. We’re aware of that. And they’re watching us.”




:cookiemonster: that's the sort of response required not the stupid rhetoric coming from a stupid ex cop :puke: proving once again you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27775847 - 05/13/22 04:45 PM (2 years, 6 days ago)

An 'unprecedented' move from China.. :tongue:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27775849 - 05/13/22 04:49 PM (2 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

sudly said:

If the Taswegians declared themselves a republic and then tried to overthrow the place with NZ provided weapons, would that not be an important factor to discuss?

The things that preceded the 8 years of battle etc.





To use the Taswegians(I love that word) as an example we would need to add something like; after 8 years of Canberra bombing and terrorising Tasmania/ns because they identify as Nuu Zilandurs and speak Nuu Zilandish, Nuu Ziland decided to step in and do something about it.

Would Nuu Ziland be thought of as an invader or a liberator?




I think there is a mischaracterisation of events here because in the example the Taswegians and Nuu Zilanders decided to step in and do something before Canberra dropped their first bomb.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 2
    #27776507 - 05/14/22 05:35 AM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Actually the grossly under reported missing piece in this fictional exercise, is that Canberra bombed Tassie because Tassie objected to the puppet government that was installed after those helpful pranksters at The National Endowment for Democracy(CIA) with the assistance of people like Victoria Nuland came to Canberra to help them with 'democracy'.

The pranksters and the Canberrans were angry that the Taswegians objected to being governed by a stooge puppet regime, were friends with the Nuu Zilanders, and thought they talked funny, so they helped stoke hateful far right ideology and encouraged militia groups to terrorise the Taswegians.

Nuu Ziland didn't think it was fair that the Canberrans were terrorising and bombing their friends and so after 8 years of failed talks and supplying arms to the Taswegians to match those being supplied to the Canberrans by the merry pranksters, they said fuck it we've had enough of this shit, and after an epic haka showed Canberra that it's not a good idea to screw with Nuu Ziland.

The merry pranksters laughed and laughed all the way to Lockheed Martins bank and said hooray! we get to fight Nuu Ziland without loosing a single merry prankster! How cool is this! We should talk those dorks in Canberra into doing the same shit for us with China in the Solomon Islands! as we are loosing our grasp on power.

All the pranksters said now be very quiet about this and get everyone to look the other way so we can do sneaky stuff whilst smearing China for assisting with economic development that would benefit both countries.

And after a short time they all lived happily ever after in nuclear fall out. THE END.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27777223 - 05/14/22 06:23 PM (2 years, 4 days ago)

That last part may ring true some day.
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Actually the grossly under reported missing piece in this fictional exercise, is that Canberra bombed Tassie because the Taswegians attacked Tasmania and the Nuu Zilanders came to help. Tassie objected to the puppet government that was installed after those helpful pranksters at The National Endowment for Democracy(CIA) with the assistance of people like Victoria Nulandcame to Canberra to help them with 'democracy'.





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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27777253 - 05/14/22 06:53 PM (2 years, 4 days ago)

The point I'm making is the U.S. and NATO are responsible for the provocation that led to this moment and there's plenty of evidence to suggest so :shrug: I think it's critical to take that onboard if we are discussing the issue honestly.

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