|
sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
#27473769 - 09/19/21 12:43 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
That's the whole problem, that elected representatives represent their lobbyists, and not the public that voted them in to that position.
If anyone can defend the fact that apple does not pay taxes, they themselves are willingly or otherwise a propagandist.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 21 hours
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
#27473899 - 09/19/21 04:33 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
At the risk of getting a verbal egging I really liked Malcolm Turnbull... wait wait hear me out. Malcolm was in charge of the worst bunch of right wing shitheads yet he still
* tried his best with that collective bunch of conservative retards to do something about climate change * championed gay marriage equality * understood the best way to deliver a realistic NBN network that worked * pushed the case for an Australian Republic which would have delivered a Bill of Rights
Not bad for a millionaire from Point Piper, he could have run as a Labor Party candidate with some of the policies he put forward, they were policies for the people.
I like Malcolm.
|
Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,455
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 5 hours, 14 minutes
|
|
Could you give me a short summary on the submarine deal. I've been superbusy with work and school, and haven't made it beyond headlines.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
|
Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,455
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 5 hours, 14 minutes
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] 1
#27474114 - 09/19/21 08:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: You are voting for someone to read the polls of the public and to represent a democratic will.
A million or one, they have a job to do and making them do it comes first.
The responsibility to represent the democratic vote is what matters. I
All I'm for is an equal opportunity, a good starting position for everyone to get themselves a foot up in life to be able to contribute more in the future.
We did not give control to the rich people per say, they propagandised the public through a set Overton window that the media represents (e.g. lower tax for rich, more spending for military), to lead the public to vote for people who called themselves representatives of the public then failed in being a representative of the public because lobbyists lobbied them not to.
I wouldn't say Joe went full socialist, but he gave a rather good performance for a postion at about Bernie Sanders level of socialism and Bernie only has about 10 or less collegues who will vote with him on this stuuf, some more who might vote for specifis issues and bunch of liberal dems who say these are important issies and then don't vote that way. It's a step. A lot of younger poeple are expousing prosocialism attitudes and they need all the help they can get in feeling these views are normal and worth working for. I frequently give up, but then some people stick their neck out, evergize the left and I have some moments of faith. Unfortunately these moments have been brief. Joe's not perfect, he has some baggage (but not that murder conspiracy theory whih is rubbish. If he wants to join the progressives full time he should be welcomed, but it will take longer to asses his committment level and motives.
Hey since the Australian politic thread is the only one currently on the forum that is active other than covid, so I appreciate you guys braching out to U.S story till we see if the forum makes a comeback. And I will make an effort to learn more Australian politics,
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
|
Mach z 800
Stranger


Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 1,580
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones] 2
#27474329 - 09/19/21 11:46 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Brian Jones said: Could you give me a short summary on the submarine deal. I've been superbusy with work and school, and haven't made it beyond headlines.
basically France an Australia had a deal for a new submarine to be built. an insted America an Australia cut a deal for America to build a nuclear sub for Australia behind france back an they are not happy since france is an allies.
Watch "Nuclear submarines for Australia just started a new Pacific military alliance against China!" on YouTube
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,847
Last seen: 52 minutes
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
#27474391 - 09/19/21 12:26 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: That's the whole problem, that elected representatives represent their lobbyists, and not the public that voted them in to that position.
If anyone can defend the fact that apple does not pay taxes, they themselves are willingly or otherwise a propagandist.
That's my point. That is not the problem. That is simply a method by which humanity picks ambassadors. You seemingly disagree with the idea that the wealthiest should decide the course of humanity. The wealthy disagree with you. Since the wealthy make decisions and you do not, the wealthy continue to shape the future.
To me the problem is that we pick a small group of champions and empower them to shape the future. I think we should pick a bigger group of people to make decisions. Of course, that means decisions get made more slowly, and things are more boring.
|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 21 hours
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
#27474476 - 09/19/21 01:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Brian Jones said: Could you give me a short summary on the submarine deal. I've been superbusy with work and school, and haven't made it beyond headlines.
That video that Mach z 800 posted is a good one and definitely worth watching.
Here's a couple of interesting sidelines to the main story.
I don't know if you recall Prime Minister Scott Morrison having a face to face with Biden at the G7 earlier this year and suddenly Boris Jonhson crashes the party and people at the time were like wtf is Boris up to?... 
Also, it appears Morrison waited until Trump was gone and purposely never discussed this with orange man even though secret discussions were taking place for the last 18 months. lol FU Donald
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/16/diplomacy-dialled-up-to-11-australia-saddles-up-with-us-as-indo-pacific-heads-for-cold-war
|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 21 hours
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
#27474493 - 09/19/21 01:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
sudly said: That's the whole problem, that elected representatives represent their lobbyists, and not the public that voted them in to that position.
That's my point. That is not the problem. That is simply a method by which humanity picks ambassadors. You seemingly disagree with the idea that the wealthiest should decide the course of humanity. The wealthy disagree with you. Since the wealthy make decisions and you do not, the wealthy continue to shape the future.

Isn't that EXACTLY what sudly is talking about?
Wait wait I'll answer for you...... "Of course not, insert roundabout response"
The lobbyists are paid for by the rich, there is no difference, they're errand boys sent by grocery clerks to collect a bill. That one was for you Brian
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,847
Last seen: 52 minutes
|
|
I'm trying to figure out the proper way to phrase what I mean.
I mean, I could just say "you're thinking too narrowly, think bigger", but that's not very illuminating.
The problem, the way I saw it on Friday, is the overall number of people in charge. I think we need more of them.
How those people are picked does not really matter. Maybe they're picked by voting, maybe they're picked by having more money, maybe they're picked because a dude in a fancy hat claiming to speak for God said so. The problem is the overall number of decision makers.
The people that are in the club that makes decisions have a vested interest in shrinking that club, because then each of their decisions carries greater weight. I think the club should be bigger, explicitly to dilute the power of each individual decision, which prevents giving the wrong person too much power.
sudly (and I guess you, perhaps), seem to just be pissed that even if we vote, the decision club is secretly being picked by money. At least, that's the way I see it based on this thread. I don't see that as the core problem. Across the world, the decision club seems to be shrinking. Of course, that is a very US-centric perspective, because we keep delegating power to the president. My opinion that the decision club seems to be shrinking is heavily tilted by that perspective, so I may be wrong about the rest of the world. But I don't think I am.
|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 21 hours
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
#27474619 - 09/19/21 03:15 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think it's as conspiratorial as you're suggesting.
For example the mining tax that Labor put in place to try and put some money back into Australian coffers from the big iron ore and coal miners was sunk by concerted efforts by lobby groups like the ones I've listed below.
There are others. Prominent figures like Clive Palmer and Gina Rheinhart are also responsible for ripping us off.
https://www.cmewa.com.au/about/us/
https://www.minerals.org.au/about-mca
These lobbyists in step with their donors scare-mongered the Australian public and the government into believing they would stop producing.
The mining industry effectively blackmailed the country into scrapping a 30% levy on their profits.
|
sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
#27475138 - 09/20/21 02:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Sounds like you've fallen for the old, billionaires work 1000x more than their workers. Instead of wage exploitation and a business model that once produced, makes it's own money..
Having more corrupt politicians wouldn't help, being corrupt is the problem I'm pointing out.
The 'decision club' is a quid pro quo arrangement, and yes, I would like that to stop.
You're fine with legalised bribery, and I am not.
At least you're open about it.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,455
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 5 hours, 14 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Stable Genius said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: Could you give me a short summary on the submarine deal. I've been superbusy with work and school, and haven't made it beyond headlines.
That video that Mach z 800 posted is a good one and definitely worth watching.
Here's a couple of interesting sidelines to the main story.
I don't know if you recall Prime Minister Scott Morrison having a face to face with Biden at the G7 earlier this year and suddenly Boris Jonhson crashes the party and people at the time were like wtf is Boris up to?... 
Also, it appears Morrison waited until Trump was gone and purposely never discussed this with orange man even though secret discussions were taking place for the last 18 months. lol FU Donald
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/16/diplomacy-dialled-up-to-11-australia-saddles-up-with-us-as-indo-pacific-heads-for-cold-war
That's not surprising. The top brass of the U.S. military also quit bothering to talk to Trump and had discussions behing his back, even with the General Secretary of the CCP.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,847
Last seen: 52 minutes
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
#27475469 - 09/20/21 10:21 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, I understand that rich people bribing public officials is a bad thing. Congratulations on that discovery.
Rich people have always bribed people, and will always continue to bribe people. Corruption cannot be removed from the system because corruption is inherent to the function of the system. Any system, really.
The only way to stop that is by making the price of corruption too high--this means having more people in charge. At a certain point, bribes become more expensive than the payoff, and the more people that must be bribed, the more likely that is to happen.
Adding more people to the decision club also stops the problems associated with voting in corrupt people.
Stopping corruption is like stopping the sun from rising. You won't be able to accomplish it.
|
Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,455
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 5 hours, 14 minutes
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
#27475508 - 09/20/21 10:50 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
In China I think they shoot people or imprison them for life for major corruption. I'm sure they're very selective about who gets charged.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,847
Last seen: 52 minutes
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
#27475585 - 09/20/21 11:47 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Depends on the type of corruption. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that pro government corruption is perfectly fine, and even encouraged.
|
sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
#27475936 - 09/20/21 03:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Rich people being legally allowed to bribe politicians specifically is the issue.
You may not be able to remove %100 percent of corruption by removing the legality of bribing politicians, but it's a damn good start.
Right now criminalizing financial corruption would be the only thing that made the price of corruption too high, because currently you can donate 50k and get millions in contracts, thousands of percent profits on your investments.
Quote:
Fewer than two years and after tens of millions of dollars spent on lobbying, political donations, and lawsuits aimed at bullying its critics, Exxon has executed what could amount to a staggering reversal of its political and financial fortunes. For the company, the 2016 presidential election was the inflection point. Instead of fighting to survive in a carbon-constrained world in which many of its oil and gas reserves were at risk of being stranded, Exxon now has the opportunity to build a policy environment of largely unrestricted greenhouse gas pollution that facilitates the expansion of fossil fuel production and consumption for decades to come. Investors in the U.S. stock market seem to understand the financial implications of the election for Exxon: Between November 8 and December 31, 2016, the company’s share price rose 7 percent, amounting to a $21 billion increase in the market value of the company in fewer than two months.
The financial benefits of the 2016 election for Exxon—which will be attained and compounded by the unprecedented corporate power the company is building inside the Trump administration—are difficult to measure at this point but nearly impossible to overstate. This column identifies seven major financial payouts that could flow to Exxon during the Trump administration, assisted by five Trump Cabinet nominees: former Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson for secretary of state; Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt (R) for Environmental Protection Agency administrator; Rep. Ryan Zinke (R-MT) for secretary of the Interior; former Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R) for secretary of energy; and Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) for attorney general. Each of these nominees has either been employed by Exxon or received massive financial contributions from it. All told, these potential benefits could amount to at least $1 trillion for Exxon over the coming years.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/green/news/2017/01/10/296277/how-exxon-won-the-2016-election/
More people in power could mean more potential for corruption..
How about the idea of just reducing corruption by not allowing legalised bribery of politicians.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,847
Last seen: 52 minutes
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
#27476145 - 09/20/21 07:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Because if not allowing legalized bribery was possible, it would have been accomplished.
|
sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
#27476190 - 09/20/21 07:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
It hasn't been attacked at the root by those in power because they suckle from its effect.
Australia follows the US like a lapdog, or at the very least, what happens in the US can influence Australian decisions.
And a new amendment to overturn the likes of citizens United is a good effort imo.
Quote:
Wolf-PAC argues that Congress is too corrupted by big money and special interests to adequately address campaign finance reform, citing sources ranging from personal experience to a well known Princeton study.
The organization works nationwide with state legislators using the state initiated convention procedure in Article V of the Constitution to propose an amendment to fix the influence that big money and special interests have over the American government. Wolf-PAC asserts that applying for a convention will either directly result in the desired amendment or pressure Congress to act.
The catalyst behind much of the modern campaign finance reform effort is Citizens United v. FEC, which overturned the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act (BCRA) of 2003, commonly known as McCain-Feingold. Uygur, though, says he was motivated principally by the major precedents that lead to Citizens United, like Buckley v. Valeo (1976), which equated campaign spending with free speech and First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti (1978), which allowed independent expenditures by corporations to influence elections.
Wolf-PAC has also cited subsequent cases as further demonstrating the need for a Constitutional Amendment, such as American Tradition Partnership, Inc. v. Bullock (2012) and McCutcheon v. FEC (2015).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf-PAC
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,847
Last seen: 52 minutes
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] 1
#27476244 - 09/20/21 08:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: It hasn't been attacked at the root by those in power because they suckle from its effect.
So, your proposition is to convince the people in power to attack their own primary method of enrichment at the root?
Good luck with that.
|
sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
|
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
#27476279 - 09/20/21 09:20 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
5 states have passed it and 24 have introduced it for consideration
Build a grass roots movement and pressure each state to sign on, and no it's not easy, god damned no where near, but it's that or suck it up, never try and never complain.
What makes you think that just putting more people in politics will make for less corruption?
Maybe if everyone new gets a litmus test not to take political donations from large corporations it'd work.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
|