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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27470994 - 09/16/21 07:24 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Mmmmm I think if we're going to spend 90 billion it's probably a good idea to buy the best technology, which nuclear powered subs are.

It also strengthens Asia Pacific security, despite what China is saying.

And lets face it, this deal is all about sending a huge FUCK YOU message to China.




2.5 billion just got wasted on design costs and the overall cost of the nuclear program is yet to be announced.

If we're going to spend 90 billion we could use it to help the people instead of the military industrial complex and invest in part or full dental and tuition coverage included in Medicare. Full coverage for dental would cost an estimate range from $6.7 billion to $11 billion a year.

I'm not for full coverage of tuition or dental, just a set amount to help cover the basics.

E.g. 10,000 towards tuition one time, and 1000 a year for dental.

I haven't heard any partial funding suggestions but I think it meets a good middle ground of cost and benefit.

Some people require 250,000 for tuition ,  some 20,000. Some people need 15000 for dental, some 300.

Security is the governments excuse for screwing over the people and feeding the military industrial complex exactly what it pays our politicians for.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27470996 - 09/16/21 07:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

What do you think of a bill for campaign finance reform to make it so that large corporations can't make politicians beholden to them with large donations and shadowy quid pro quo arrangements.

1000 days since they said they'd have an ICC, and nothing but corruption since.

Pork barreling etc.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27471108 - 09/16/21 09:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Oh for sure I fully appreciate your point about the cost, it's staggering, especially after all the political bullshit we've had to endure with covid :thumbup: And let's not forget that's just submarines we're talking about. I've worked on a couple of different bases over the years and the wasted money is just eye watering.

Campaign Finance reform, yeah, I think we have something like that in place at the moment don't 'we' = Aus?... and it's not working, at any level.

Did you check out the Friendly Jordies video I posted earlier... New South Wales has well and truly stolen the crown for the most corrupt state.

Both sides are a fucking joke, from Labor and that sack of shit Obeid to the Liberal's nation saving :puke: heroine Gladys and her scumbag ex boyfriend Daryl Maguire.
How that woman has kept her job is beyond me  :puke: 

Corrupt pieces of shit like this are part of the reason that fish and chip shop dumb-dumb's like Pauline Hanson have so much appeal... even though she hasn't a clue on how to articulate any decent policy.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27471121 - 09/16/21 09:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So yes, this is a big FUCK YOU to China. Specifically, Australia is threatening the ability to project offensive submarine power, instead of focusing on defense.





There was an ex submariner talking on Radio National yesterday and he laid out the case for nuclear subs quite well, but I'll look further into what you're saying :thumbup:

If we're realistic about Australia's capability to defend itself we haven't the resources. We get a broader range of advantages by spending a shit tonne of money with the U.S. than just sub technology.

Aus already has reasonable partnerships with many of the asian countries in our part of the world, Singapore trains their helicoptor pilots at one of our bases. We conduct training exercises with Malaysia and Indonesia, the U.S. comes here all the time for training exercises.... New Zealand joins in occasionally with some toy guns :lol:
This is how we defend ourselves, with alliances.

Remember all those shitty wars we jumped into with the U.S., we didn't do it for nothing.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27471224 - 09/17/21 02:03 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

There's also that the first submarines won't be operational before 20 years if everything goes well and there aren't delays that add more.

And I heard today that by 2050 technology likely will have advanced making the submarines more or less obsolete.

If it's for protection or security, something that takes 20 years to do anything and by then will be less effective is a strange thing indeed.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27471318 - 09/17/21 05:11 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Hmmm good point.
Like it only took 26 years to get the Collins-class subs functional... so actually 20 years would be an improvement. That's some serious lol

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27471331 - 09/17/21 05:29 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Australia doesn't have nuclear weapons, probably because they figured the U.S. would be there to bail them out, which probably isn't going to happen. Given geopolitical reality, they will come under China's sphere of influence. I don't think China wants to take them over, like Hong Kong and Taiwan, but Australia will have to make some serious accomodations. I'm thinking something like Finland during the Soviet reign.


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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27471846 - 09/17/21 03:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

... so giving up some of our territory? That's a big call Mr Jones.

However it's something a lot of institutions here have examined over the last 10-20 years and the analysis has always come up with that scenario being unlikely, even after the current announcement.

We have barely enough water to look after the current population and there's really only 1 commodity that China doesn't have - iron ore.

This is the new cold war and China have played their part by applying tariffs to every item of value we export to them, except iron ore. We've responding by doing zero, unless we count the government voicing their opinion on various matters as a serious response.
What it has done is forced our exporters to examine other markets. India is one, the EU is another of significance.

The hypocrisy coming out of China atm with their bleating that this submarine announcement is somehow threatening regional security, after they have built military bases on coral reefs in disputed waters, is laughable.

* Just heard that the French have recalled their ambassador's in both Australia and the U.S. and to be honest I don't blame them. Our Prime Minister is a slimey bastard, it doesn't surprise me he has said one thing and done another.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27472041 - 09/17/21 05:49 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

I'm not for full coverage of tuition or dental, just a set amount to help cover the basics.

E.g. 10,000 towards tuition one time, and 1000 a year for dental.

I haven't heard any partial funding suggestions but I think it meets a good middle ground of cost and benefit.

Some people require 250,000 for tuition ,  some 20,000. Some people need 15000 for dental, some 300.





I like the idea of making people contribute a % of their own cash towards services. It gets around the problem we had with 'career students' when we had free university under Gough Whitlam.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27472220 - 09/17/21 08:58 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

What's wrong with being a career student?

There's this idea in modern times that everybody must work, and it's a goddamn stupid idea. Not everybody has to work, and if anything, most people do not have to work. And sure, there's a fairness argument, but as someone who is more capable than most, I don't mind doing a bit more. If somebody wants to spend their life fucking off and getting 60 degrees, that's fine by me. I don;t mind paying for them to get those 60 degrees either, as long as they're at least interesting, and living on what they need, not what they want.

For one thing, earning 60 degrees is actually pretty hard. As someone who is more capable than most, I still struggle with some stuff others consider basic. I've tried coding several times, and apart from some runescape bots and automated excel spreadsheets, I can't seem to get the hang of it. Like, I can't full stack an entire project, even having devoted some significant time to it. I've tried, it just doesn't work.

We live in a world where a dozen people earn millions of dollars per hour.

WARNING: US NUMBERS INCOMING, CONVERT AS NEEDED

That's what I'm fucking pissed about. I don't give a fuck about a professional student, who maybe costs 75k per year their entire life. 25k for a year schooling at a decent state school, 1.2k/month=14.5k/yr housing, 35k left over on life, but as a professional student, you're studying, not living. Assuming this pro student lives to 65, that's about 6.5 mil. For an entire lifetime. The average person ears something around 2-3 mil, and that's with a minimum wage that has fallen to roughly 1/4th the real value it had 50 years ago. Bezos makes approximately 50 of those 6.5 mil lifetimes per day. Imagine making the entire value of 50 pampered, or (2 mil assuming average lifeitme wage 50k and 40 working years) 160 regular lifetimes per day. Is anybody worth 160 lives per day?

Two things are true, to me: the numbers are nowhere near reality, and some US dollars are literally worth more than other US dollars, and so economically speaking, the money held by some poor dude is literally worth more than money that exists as Jeff Bezos' stock investment.

The second thing, is since the actual numbers behind the money are entirely fictional, is that we still have an arbitrary nobility that rules above us, and we are not them. You ever watch a TV show like game of thrones, and realize that you're one of the random faceless extras charging into battle in the background while the main characters talk. And yeah, you might be good at what you do, but then instead of the credits saying "extras provided by local acting school", you're "dead elite soldier #3", because that's what a redshirt is. You're really good at what you do, and well respected, but you're not part of their club. You're not ever Grey Worm/ Melisande. You're the elite soldier next to Grey Worm that catches a fucking spear in the face in 4k for that money shot.

Whether you're one of those people is luck.

So can society truly afford to send many people to college for their entire life? I do not think so.

On the other hand, there is value in giving some odd individual that much power to shape history. And life is chance. Sometimes it's a good bet, sometimes it is not. Time will decide. Sometimes you're the guy that sails around the world and comes back with limit-breaking knowledge. Sometimes, you die and your crew finishes the voyage, but you get credit anyway. Is it better to be the guy that dies, or is it better to be the random fucking sailor that survives but nobody knows about? Or is it better to be a king, or better yet, the guy who's name the word "king" comes from?

And that's what we do to those people. Old money. They can go to college for their entire lives. Or they can fuck off on tiktok. Lambos on instagram.

We went through an age of agriculture, and the farm owners ran the world. We went through an age of industrialization, and the industrialists ran the world. We went through an age of science, and the scientists ran the world. Now we're going through the age of socialization, and social media runs the world.

The thing is, the racists are right. Racism is, to an extent, natural. But it is also not longer necessary. It's natural selection. That part of the genome is slowly being removed. We are being force-fed tolerance and social justice, just like conservatives fear, because that is a side effect of the ability to communicate with people across the world.

The fact that we can interact is fucking insane. Just, assuming you're not in the same zipcode as me, not even considering the possibility of different continents. Not even from a travel standpoint, because travel is an ordeal. But from an "I'm bored, let's type out a quick Friday Night Vaguely Political Ramble Rant" perspective.

There is going to be some culture clash right there. You probably got annoyed that I'm talking from a US perspective, to some extent. I know I have annoyed posters in the past with my US-centric worldview, and that's why I never really engaged much with this thread earlier, because I didn't want to impose my will upon something that I, frankly, do not know much about.

But the problem is, every time you go through one of these ages, some people don't make the cut. The racists aren't gonna make the cut, and they're throwing a tantrum about it. And if the wrong decisions are made, more people don't make the cut. Humanity will survive climate change, and you certainly will not. You don;t really get a choice in the matter. Ultimately, nobody does, but you get less choice in the matter than a billionaire. That's what wealth is. The ability to shape the future.

The question though, is not about money. There's a total output of humanity, and it can be steered in different directions. The question is how many people get to choose the direction. Under the conservative republican right wing authoritarian whatever fewer people get to make those decisions, leading to sharper turns in the direction of humanity. Under the left wing liberal democrats labour labor worker's whatever, more people get to make those decisions, leading to slower changes in trajectory.

You're not one of the people that make those decisions. If you were, you would not be here. There will always be elites and commoners. Patricians and Plebeians. Kings and nobles and serfs. Super Billionaires like Bezos, and little billionaires like Jay-Z. Super millionaires with 9 figures, successful millionaires with 8, regular millionaires with 7... We've just stratified society out into 12-13 ranks, instead of the 10 we had before. Or the 7 we had before. Or whatever. Kings, nobles, knights, merchants, serfs. 5 ranks. Log base: 100,000,000,000 Rank 12 super billions. Rank 10 regular billions. Rank 9 mega millions (hey, isn't that a lottery?). Rank 8 MAN I'm Good millionaires, Rank 7 Coulda done worse millionaires. Then come the hundredaires. Rank 6 I'm alrights. Rank 5 Uff-das. Rank 4 through 1 is basically animals. Homeless, and the like.

I guess that's only like, 8-9 ranks. I'm literally too lazy to scroll up and count.

Either way, humanity is becoming properly socialized. Racism will not exist in a generation or two, because either we will learn to work together, or we will cause enough people to die to force us to work together. And then the next generation will face the next funnel event. It'll probably take 3-5 generations, honestly. This cycle is getting bigger and slowing down. Humanity will be fine, though. We might no longer be recognizably human, but our descendants will make it to the stars, even if it takes the sun eating the earth.

Just kinda sucks being alive during the squeeze, eh?

Edited by Kryptos (09/17/21 09:08 PM)

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27472301 - 09/17/21 10:10 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Can you like tldr?


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27472452 - 09/18/21 12:21 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:

What's wrong with being a career student?

I don;t mind paying for them to get those 60 degrees either,

I don't give a fuck about a professional student,

So can society truly afford to send many people to college for their entire life? I do not think so.

On the other hand, there is value in giving some odd individual that much power to shape history.





Ummm I think he's totally against the idea whilst at the same time being totally for it. And that's fucking cool man :crankey: because this is a mushroom site and if you've ever tripped hard this makes total sense :thumbup:


Quote:

Kryptos said:
You probably get annoyed that I'm talking from a US perspective, to some extent. I know I have annoyed posters in the past with my US-centric worldview, and that's why I never really engaged much with this thread earlier, because I didn't want to impose my will upon something that I, frankly, do not know much about.




I like you posting in this thread, I was lonely in here. I was so lonely I was talked into talking about kangaroos earlier.
This is much better, even though I have no idea what your point was it's ok as I have no idea wtf is going on in Australia half the time anyway :hatsoff:

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27473071 - 09/18/21 02:21 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

TL;DR I had a fun Friday.

And like the majority of my crapulent rants, I stand by what I said. It's a lot less inconsistent that it first appears.

It all comes down to logarithmic money. Either society can afford to send everyone to college for 60 years, or 100$+100$=/=200$. Which I kind of alluded to, in the sense that a million people that each have a dollar in their pocket collectively have more money than a single guy with a million dollars in their pocket.

Edit: Mathematically, it does not make sense, but money isn't real. Money is an abstraction, a substitute, for value. It doesn't have to follow the rules of reality.

Edited by Kryptos (09/18/21 02:29 PM)

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27473272 - 09/18/21 05:28 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

There's also the struggle of actually convincing people to take up your opinions and a lot of people shut out or shutdown things like paid tuition that older folk got.

If we do nothing we're lucky to get crumbs. Sometimes a bite is better, and in the corrupt and fd up systems we have, a bite is a damn good start.

And even then, there are personal choices and if you go into a field that leaves you with 200,000 in debt, to try and make 200,000k a year, you've made that choice and I think you should get the same basic assistant as all the other people who took a less balsy option, or didn't put down as large a gamble.

Society can technically afford all kinds of shit, but realistically a lot won't pass.

Quote:

If a movement is to have an impact it must belong to those who join it, not those who lead it.




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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos]
    #27473366 - 09/18/21 07:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The question though, is not about money. There's a total output of humanity, and it can be steered in different directions. The question is how many people get to choose the direction. Under the conservative republican right wing authoritarian whatever fewer people get to make those decisions, leading to sharper turns in the direction of humanity. Under the left wing liberal democrats labour labor worker's whatever, more people get to make those decisions, leading to slower changes in trajectory.




Do we want more people to have smaller individual input, or do we want fewer people to be empowered to make bigger changes?

This is fundamentally the question of welfare. And power. And everything else.

Like if Plinko. You run into a bunch of little pegs, and you either come out ahead or behind. Most people end up somewhere in the middle. About average. A few people fall far behind, a few people end up way ahead.

Now on that final distribution, we can put a few lines. Everyone below a certain line loses their humanity, on a societal level. Homeless and such. There are other lines as well. Lines that allow people to make more and more decisions.

We only decide where we get to put those lines. Do we let only one guy, the guy that hit all the pegs a certain way, to do everything? Or do we take the top 10 guys? Top 100? Top 1000? The more people make decisions, the slower those decisions are made. But the less likely we make a stupid mistake.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27473384 - 09/18/21 07:24 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Money is still always in the question whether you like it or not.

The question is not how many people get to choose the direction, that is democracy. The question is whether those who were put in place to lead and listen to the will of the majority will do so.

Like in QLD, 80% of the public were for the right to end of life bill and it still went to a conscience vote, democracy was superseded and left at the personal whims of a handful of people.

Quote:

Do we want more people to have smaller individual input, or do we want fewer people to be empowered to make bigger changes?




We want equal opportunities, and what does it mean to have more people having less input?

How does that factor in, or why would someone have less input?

Everyone together is empowered to make bigger decisions, but again it depends on if those elected to listen to those decisions actually do so.

You give everyone a starting chance and some use that equal opportunity to make more of themselves or more for themselves.

We don't decide where we put the plinko lines, we're given a chance and we put in effort to reach them, unfortunately in your plinko analogy luck seems to be the majority factor. At least, in real life you're given a starting opportunity and you work your way up the line.

We the people use democracy and the leaders we have to represent us, they are supposed to represent us but they often don't because they take quid pro quo arrangements through veiled political donations from large interest groups.

There's a system of representatives from local to federal and when they're voted in as a representative, their job is to do that. A lot don't and we know that.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27473596 - 09/18/21 10:12 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Money, power, government, etc. are all abstractions by which we pick those that make decisions for everyone. Sure, you vote democratically, but you're only voting to pick someone else to make those decisions.

The only choice is how many such people we pick. Few, or many? The more people we pick to lead, the longer they will deliberate and the fewer people we pick to lead, the faster decisions get made.

And yes, life is decided by chance. We keep telling ourselves that we have control, that we can work for something better, but that is not true. Life is decided primarily by luck, and under capitalism, the line that defines survival moves ever higher. Because we gave control to the few rich people that decide the fate of society.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27473643 - 09/18/21 10:42 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

You are voting for someone to read the polls of the public and to represent a democratic will.

A million or one, they have a job to do and making them do it comes first.

The responsibility to represent the democratic vote is what matters.

All I'm for is an equal opportunity, a good starting position for everyone to get themselves a foot up in life to be able to contribute more in the future.

We did not give control to the rich people per say, they propagandised the public through a set Overton window that the media represents (e.g. lower tax for rich, more spending for military), to lead the public to vote for people who called themselves representatives of the public then failed in being a representative of the public because lobbyists lobbied them not to.



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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27473666 - 09/18/21 11:03 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Whoooo! Morning Joe telling it like it is! Unbelievable. Good posting sir :hatsoff:

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27473746 - 09/19/21 12:01 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Again, it doesn't really matter if someone is voted in, bought, whatever.

One group makes decisions, the other group does not. You are in the group that does not make decisions.

I should clarify: decisions that actually matter. Decisions that shape the course of humanity. You can decide between candidate A or candidate B, and you can decide whether you have eggs or oatmeal for breakfast. Those decisions don't matter.

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