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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Chomsky's definition of "class"
    #27253853 - 03/15/21 11:36 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Now, I regard Noam Chomsky as something of a kook, in more than one area of his supposed expertise. But I found this interesting: He defines class as, "Who gives the orders, and who takes them?"

Does this define it? Would you add anything, or do you disagree? Certainly, we don't live in a classless society, so having some idea of how to conceptualize the phenomenon seems rather important, and yet, there does not seem to be much consensus. Does Chomsky hit it, or no?


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OfflineLion
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27253992 - 03/15/21 01:36 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Add "...on behalf of whom" in between the two clauses and he's mostly correct. Lots of poor and middle class people give orders. It's a simplistic formulation.

The ruling class in the U.S. consists not necessarily of the wealthiest people but of the legislators, bureaucrats, judges, lawyers, beneficiaries of government policy in business, defense industry, insurance, finance, etc., journalists, academics, and heads of large nonprofits (again, beneficiaries of federal government). We have a caste of rulers, i.e. an oligarchy, and you can tell who they are by their aesthetics, vocabulary (reflective of particular ideology), their locations (wealthy neighborhoods in DC, NY et al), their professions, where their kids go to school, what kinds of foods they eat, where they go on vacation etc.


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: Lion]
    #27254422 - 03/15/21 05:44 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting points. I agree with everything you've said, but I would place a little more emphasis on the class of the superrich -- the billionaires. They do not literally run things since, as you pointed out, we have political and government officials for that. But everything follows as a result of how they move money. All of the lobbyists in Washington represent CEOs who are multi-millionaires, and in some cases multi-billionaires.

Now, the superrich don't even necessarily have to "pull strings." When their positions and agendas are known, people lower on the totem pole tend to follow suit. I would say that, in that case, Chomsky's definition is on the right track.

In the end, there is an upper tenth of a percent of the population that controls the money and the power. It has been this way since the dawn of civilization, which came into being to tailor to this elite class. So everything pretty much falls into place.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27254448 - 03/15/21 06:00 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I think when they are that high up on the food chain they don't know what they want;
the courtiers or lobbyists - the inner circle - decides;
and they are each surrounded by another court of charming barons.

It is amazing anything gets done, besides making exceptions for friends and getting pardons for cronies.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27254475 - 03/15/21 06:10 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
It is amazing anything gets done, besides making exceptions for friends and getting pardons for cronies.




I agree, but on the other hand, here in the U.S. hardly anything gets done on a regular basis.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27254552 - 03/15/21 06:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

This is a complex society in the year 2021 in the USA.
So perhaps one should also ask where and when the concept is useful.
It was perhaps more useful in the England & India (where it was 'caste'), China, & Japan of say about 200 years ago.

Today in the US we have many "micro" societies like gangs in LA, the Amish, Hell's Angels, & Mormons, and who knows what else? The mafia? who play by different rules much of the time; which is why I think it maybe a misleading generalization at times.

A common theme in movies is after a crime the police and FBI arguing over jurisdiction, this probably permeates a lot of government, so that even the powerful are not unified. And perhaps the same with the super rich: Bezos vs Musk?


Edited by laughingdog (03/15/21 07:01 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27254645 - 03/15/21 07:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

they could join a bowling league


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27254698 - 03/15/21 08:37 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

the super rich probably have unpleasant body guards that would be out of place in a bowling ally


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27254919 - 03/15/21 11:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Class is based on how well off you are..


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27254949 - 03/16/21 12:18 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I can't say I disagree with his definition.

I'd also argue that what we have now is essentially neo-feudalism anyway.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27255066 - 03/16/21 02:58 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

in England:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_Kingdom
and even a chart
https://www.hierarchystructure.com/british-social-hierarchy/

Chomsky ... defines class as, "Who gives the orders, and who takes them?"
Well he takes a political view.
wiki says:
"Although definitions of social class in the United Kingdom vary and are highly controversial, most are influenced by factors of wealth, occupation, and education. "
.  So because Chomsky takes a political view, because he's pissed off about injustice, he focuses on power only and ignores, all the interesting different forms 'class' takes, and how people who differ little in power, use it often to be mean to others.
.  So you could also explore why some societies, have a much more unpleasant expression of it. Even in N. America students have been killed by hazing rituals, a really ugly manifestation of the same sort of thing...So one could explore the psychology of 'class'. Humans constantly sort themselves into hierarchies, every excuse they get, not a very attractive trait. "British novelist William Golding wrote the critically acclaimed classic 'Lord of the Flies", which demonstrates this.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27255141 - 03/16/21 05:15 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

consumerism and consumption have obscured class with a screen of apparent access to stuff (much of it unnecessary) without discrimination


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27256042 - 03/16/21 06:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Conceptually its fine.  Two class - one gives and one receives. 

One has and one doesn't.  One gets laid and the other struggles.  One has disposable income and the other no.  One accepts things as they are and the other not so much.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27256225 - 03/16/21 08:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

which one accepts things as they are?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27256229 - 03/16/21 08:29 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Conceptually its fine.  Two class - one gives and one receives. 





.  Only 2 classes may be fine conceptually, but historically speaking, only 2 classes does not explain how power works.
.    For one obvious example, as soon as you have secret police and spy agencies of some sort, there are all kinds, of power plays behind the scenes having to do with blackmail. So often those who may seem outwardly inferior, may actually be pulling the strings.
.  And of course politics by definition is about jockeying for power and owed favors. And power in the form of wealth and the ability to use violence ( the mafia, the military, etc.) also pull strings behind the scenes.
.    The clothing people wear, and the outward roles they play, often do not show what is really going on.
.    This is another reason why I reject Chomsky's view.
.    I imagine many of the world's novels, are about all the subtleties Chomsky throws out the window, as other people's behavior, and the hidden reasons behind it have fascinated folks forever.
.  So yes power, is a major motivator, (along with the related: money, position, & sex), but it does not play out, as a single, unified, recognizable, class.
.  And Chomsky ignores, education, the role of priests throughout history, and later the vatican and pope, and family trees or family lineage.
.  I think "class" is actually a messy business, but that those who want to control the masses, use the concept to create factions, stir up anger and resentment, and then turn the factions  against one another. Perhaps even Chomsky is part of the problem.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27256291 - 03/16/21 09:01 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I think a significant imbalance might happen where internal frustrations become inevitable because of the outward turmoil :elmo:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27256729 - 03/17/21 05:52 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

all classes are givers and receivers but their rights vary by entitlement traps


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27256828 - 03/17/21 07:47 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

So if I don't give nor take orders am I classless? If I take and give orders am I multiple classes? Seems too black and white to be profound to me.

I could see how it make make sense if there is a "ruling class" but with democracy there is so much gray that the distinction becomes arbitrary imo.

A cop can order a legislator to hand over his ID, so does that put the cop at a higher class than the legislator?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27257034 - 03/17/21 09:33 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I appreciate your commentary, LD. Indeed, and perhaps especially in the U.S., there is no very straightforward way to delineate class. I suppose we could do it with money, but as you point out, it's more complex and subtle than that. Your points are very interesting.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Chomsky's definition of "class" [Re: teknix]
    #27257167 - 03/17/21 10:44 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So if I don't give nor take orders am I classless? If I take and give orders am I multiple classes? Seems too black and white to be profound to me.

I could see how it make make sense if there is a "ruling class" but with democracy there is so much gray that the distinction becomes arbitrary imo.

A cop can order a legislator to hand over his ID, so does that put the cop at a higher class than the legislator?



in a caste system intermediate classes give and take orders


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