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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27399976 - 07/24/21 06:40 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Anarchism is not dogma or a blueprint. It is not a system that would supposedly work if it were only applied right, like democracy, nor is it a goal to be realized in some far-off future, like communism. It is a way of acting and relating that we can put into practice right now. In reference to any value system or course of action, we can begin by asking: How does it distribute power?




As shivas poined out, anarchism seems less like a goal and more like a process by which to judge society.




I'd say that is absolutely correct it is a path not a concrete "solution". The course and actions of anarchy can contribute to a less centralized system and grow into a better means of governance, but it is not a means of governance itself, obvi bc it is somewhat a lack of that and a way for individuals to hold more of that governance themselves..it's not a switch to flip for sure, but I believe we can see how far we have made it as humans in a cooperating society, directly by seeing how much anarchic methods a population can get away with and continue to thrive.of course these will be examples of small time communal living atm as there is no way to judge this based upon the large scale citizenry of a country like the united states. Doesn't mean it will always be that way but...

The cigarettes are a good example but, I'm kinda cool with self determination.. if you wanna smoke hella cigs cuz the advertising workd til you develop lung cancer then that's your choice.. same with heroin (ab)use. We can functionally help these ppl better as far as addiction centers et Al, however they are still free to kill themselves with whatever substance and I dunno if govt should have any hand in curbing that. Public sentiment should be built off of individuals making their own minds up and then that becoming consensus


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hmm...

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27532251 - 11/06/21 08:52 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I like the idea of some kind of anarcho-syndicalism at least for many industries. I've found idealism dificult to muster up the last couple decades, but I would support that. I have a harder time envisioning an anarchistic society, because even if worked well I don't know how it could defend itself from predatory rivals.

On another note I ran into an acquaintance at the bar's Halloween Party who said she's running for General Secretary of The International Workers of the World. I only met her a few times but she likes to talk to me because I'm the only one there that can speak her language. I don't know if she has any chance of winning but it would be interesting to know the chief executive of a worldwide social movement. I knew nothing of their modern history but after meeting her the first time I looked some stuff up. They were somewhat successful in trying to organize a general strike in Madison WI when they had that crisis situation. It sounded like they at least had some effect on how it played out.


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Offlinejet li
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27546810 - 11/17/21 09:31 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Because anarchists don't use force to spread their ideas.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: jet li]
    #27547108 - 11/17/21 02:24 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Basically :thumbup:


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Offlinejet li
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27547126 - 11/17/21 02:37 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Anarchy is not fit for a society.  It is for an individual to choose not to be ruled.  There is no such thing as an anarchist society.  Society is for statism.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: jet li]
    #27547686 - 11/18/21 01:50 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I more or less agree, but groups can operate without hierarchy up to a certain size.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27548455 - 11/18/21 02:55 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jet li said:
Because anarchists don't use force to spread their ideas.



Summed up much of my OP in a sentence; but is force the most effective method of spreading ideas? If anarchy is for an individual to choose not to be ruled (or rule), why would an inability to force others preclude this decision?




Quote:

jet li said:
Anarchy is not fit for a society.  It is for an individual to choose not to be ruled.  There is no such thing as an anarchist society.  Society is for statism.



The building block of any society is the individual - I don't see any non-arbitrary distinction that can be made between the two. How many individuals can you put in a room before it becomes a society? There is certainly a spectrum between whether the individual should serve society, or if society should serve the individual, but I've always agreed with this line of thought:

Quote:

7. The individual and the social: individualism and communism, a false problem

We embrace what is best in individualism and what is best in communism.

Insurrection begins with the desire of individuals to break out of constrained and controlled circumstances, the desire to reappropriate the capacity to create one’s own life as one sees fit. This requires that they overcome the separation between them and their conditions of existence. Where the few, the privileged, control the conditions of existence, it is not possible for most individuals to truly determine their existence on their terms. Individuality can only flourish where equality of access to the conditions of existence is the social reality. This equality of access is communism; what individuals do with that access is up to them and those around them. Thus there is no equality or identity of individuals implied in true communism. What forces us into an identity or an equality of being are the social roles laid upon us by our present system. There is no contradiction between individuality and communism.





Humans are social animals, and the life of a true individual is pretty bleak compared to the possibilities when we work together. It's hard to flourish as an individual if all of your energy goes towards a subsistence lifestyle.




Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I more or less agree, but groups can operate without hierarchy up to a certain size.



Do you think that you might be conflating 'hierarchy' with 'organization' here?


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27548547 - 11/18/21 04:21 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

All I'm saying is that there are empirical examples of non-hierarchical groups of an intermediate size like autonomous work groups. There are also some medium-small companies that are employee owned, but I don't know much about their power structure. That is the best human beings have done to this point.

Maybe it's a complete weakness of mine, but I have no stomach for principles or philosophy, because they ignore context. I can't consider anything except through social context.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27548591 - 11/18/21 05:01 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

But the implication was that hierarchy becomes necessary at a certain size, correct?

Social context isn't a permanent fixture. We can't ignore it, but neither should we limit ourselves to it. For a long time the social context held religious hierarchy as a necessary aspect of civilized society. I don't think many of us put much stock in this now, but in the past that argument held a lot of weight and there weren't many large-scale examples of non-religious groups to counter it. That only changed because people looked past the then-current social context. Is there any reason why state hierarchy should be considered differently?


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27548615 - 11/18/21 05:19 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

"That is the best human beings have done to this point."

After some reflection, I'm curious what metric you're using here. Is the 'best' non-hierarchical group the one with the most participants; the most viability within capitalism; or something else?


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27549020 - 11/18/21 11:19 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The best human beings have done in recorded history would be the metric.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27549152 - 11/19/21 01:37 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
But the implication was that hierarchy becomes necessary at a certain size, correct?

Social context isn't a permanent fixture. We can't ignore it, but neither should we limit ourselves to it. For a long time the social context held religious hierarchy as a necessary aspect of civilized society. I don't think many of us put much stock in this now, but in the past that argument held a lot of weight and there weren't many large-scale examples of non-religious groups to counter it. That only changed because people looked past the then-current social context. Is there any reason why state hierarchy should be considered differently?




Yes to first question.

For the second question, not necessarily, but I'm not seeing any evidence of it. The non-necessity of religion was discussed by Dostoevsky in the 1800's, and seemed to be a common topic in intellectual circles. It's currently practiced by most in the Scandinavian countries, the Czech Republic, and Japan. I don't believe in immutable social laws and religion used to be considered a societal universal. I have seen no evidence that non-hierarchical social structure can work on a large scale, or even ambitious social experiments of it that have failed. Of course it's possible, but I don't get my head around concepts that only exist as ideals. And I think we all know there isn't a lot of time left.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27549594 - 11/19/21 10:37 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The best human beings have done in recorded history would be the metric.



But what makes them the best? That's what I'm asking.

You mentioned "autonomous work groups" and "companies that are employee owned". Do you consider these examples of the best non-hierarchical groups because of the number of participants; their viability under capitalism; their longevity; perhaps a combination of these qualities; or something else entirely?

The reason I ask is because I'm curious where informal non-hierarchical organization would place in your ranking. For example, the network of refugee squats across the northern mediterranean, mutual aid disaster relief in the USA, or the protest response to international summits like the G20. These aren't one single cohesive group, but there is still organization between them - and this type of decentralized and informal organization is probably more realistic than a single massive non-hierarchical group.


As for the second part about religion: when Dostoevsky and other intellectuals were discussing the non-necessity of religion in the 1800s, did they have evidence that non-religious social structure can work on a large scale?

Edit: I confused 1800s with 18th century. Late 18th was when we began to see the establishment of non-religious social structure (US and French revolutions providing two good, albeit imperfect, examples); but my point is that this change in social structure was made real by those who first imagined possibilities beyond its limits - not as an unreachable utopia, but as a guiding direction in which to focus their efforts in the present.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (11/19/21 12:26 PM)

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27550248 - 11/19/21 06:51 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Autonomous work groups are the largest functional non-hierarchical units that I'm aware of. Their performance can be measured and compared to traditional organization. This gives them a legitimacy that can't be ignored by outsiders. It wouldn't necessarily lead to their proliferation because capitalists may prefer control to profits.

My intention in mentioning Dostoevsky was just that anti-religous sentiment was taking hold in European intellectual circles 140 years ago. And it was a bigger movement than pro-anarchy sentiment has ever generated, that I know of. I recognize that popularity contests are a flawed metric, but they are what often passes for proof, and what other measures would be less flawed? I believe that non-religion is growing and anarchism is not, because atheism does not get in the way of capitalism. Max Weber made an interesting point about Protestant ethic in the orgins of capitalism, but dumping Christianity does not upset the system economically and the social changes are working themselves in large sectors of the world. Anarchism is a direct threat to capitalism, and I have difficulty imagining it taking hold except by force, and like the communist revelutions that did take hold by force, the end result may not work out as planned.

I can conceive of incremental movement to anarchism, but as I said, time is short, which is another way of saying too little, too late.  Anarcho-syndicalism, that I favor, has elements of anarchism and socialism, but it is only a blueprint/theory for medium sized scale, and I have no knowledge of how these groups interconnect or provide for defense. I think the prospects for social change in this type of arrangement are much more favorable in Europe and probably Canada, than in the U.S. The economic tournament model of winner take all is too much a part of American thinking about economy and society.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27551592 - 11/20/21 07:30 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

True anarchism is self governance, not a complete absence of any government. When something needs to be done, we would organize for it to all come together and happen. It's more communal.

This is an excellent video on anarchism:


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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27551623 - 11/20/21 07:50 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Anarchists are naive. In a real state of anarchy, whoever is the strongest and most brutal will immediately seize power, kill everyone who opposes them, and form a dictatorship.

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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: jet li] * 1
    #27551649 - 11/20/21 08:06 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)


Quote:

jet li said:
Anarchy is not fit for a society.  It is for an individual to choose not to be ruled.  There is no such thing as an anarchist society.  Society is for statism.



I'm actually pretty sure there are anarchist tribes on islands and the aborigine in Australia! There are anarchist societies but they are most likely a lot smaller in population than an entire country.


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Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (11/20/21 08:06 PM)

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: jet li]
    #27552112 - 11/21/21 07:38 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jet li said:
Because anarchists don't use force to spread their ideas.




Not true, they fought for their ideas in Spain. https://www.nihilist.li/2018/02/11/anarchist-military-organization-during-the-civil-war-in-spain/

No one fights for them now because it's a failed idea.

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27552114 - 11/21/21 07:41 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OutsideOfMyMind said:

Quote:

jet li said:
Anarchy is not fit for a society.  It is for an individual to choose not to be ruled.  There is no such thing as an anarchist society.  Society is for statism.



I'm actually pretty sure there are anarchist tribes on islands and the aborigine in Australia! There are anarchist societies but they are most likely a lot smaller in population than an entire country.




The indigenous in Australia are on the system to the tune of 30+ billion a year in welfare. Entire remote townships have no other means.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Oz_Salvia] * 1
    #27552276 - 11/21/21 10:08 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Is that for the gas rights to their lands?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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