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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27394033 - 07/19/21 04:23 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I dunno I feel someone with no empathy whatsoever to that level in addition of being intellectual to KNOW you need to fake it to be the "pack" animal we are.../fit in/have relationships...etc.

That person should then have enough intellect to know they shouldn't and can't expect anything from other humans and also can choose to be alone..
why does a person with no empathy have to cause damage ina anarchic kind of path?
If given complete unfettered freedom to do whatever they would like from the jump quite possibly they wouldn't feel the need to hurt others or demonize others enough to go out of their way to pursue their happiness that way..
if they would do so they are sociopaths and should be dealt with as such.
In anarchy I like to think these things figure themselves out due to the survival nature of humans.
ok they cause mass whatever's but that is going to only happen ONCE. No prison to sit in just the end bc they would be rejected by the communal trust that would be the backbone of an anarchic rule..
And so I jus see it as those with those tendencies would be weeded out through communal pressure and/or death.

When someone ignores the rules that is what you get..
jus because the prevailing thought is not to use force,
does NOT however preclude a mfer from,
when provoked by a heinous act and human(your example of a person wanting to cause harm to many ppl) or the like,
from reaching out and touching that individual and solving the problem(the taken lives of the their loved one/neighbor/tennis partner) same goes for most violent offenses people tend to do like rape or robbery..People aren't going to let their loved ones suffer and jus go on like it's all roses. And they arent supposed to bc that keeps the "order" that existed prior to the heinous behavior


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27394259 - 07/19/21 07:18 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ashfiken said:
That person should then have enough intellect to know they shouldn't and can't expect anything from other humans and also can choose to be alone..
why does a person with no empathy have to cause damage ina anarchic kind of path?
If given complete unfettered freedom to do whatever they would like from the jump quite possibly they wouldn't feel the need to hurt others or demonize others enough to go out of their way to pursue their happiness that way..
if they would do so they are sociopaths and should be dealt with as such.




What about people that aren't violent psychopaths. What about the people that just don't care when others get hurt along the way? What about people like the Sacklers? "Eh, who cares if the entirely of appalachia now has oxy withdrawals, we got paid"

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27394737 - 07/20/21 07:11 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I dunno if it hadn't been for the doctors' idiocy, those patients would have never been exposed to be addicted like tht.
So I dunno it's a whole complicit enterprise for the sake of greed and not otherwise able to be brought to fruition if it weren't for the fact it enriched ppl tht I wouldn't say we're necessarily out to hurt but def playing the game that it wasn't their first priority.. money was first.
Either way it was perpetrated by far beyond jus the Sackler fam and I think that makes it a different kind of example you have brought forth that may be mitigated from happening under a different system where money isn't top priority for all


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27396318 - 07/21/21 09:20 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

What about misguided altruism?

Like the people that will kill you in the name of Jesus, and say it was worth it because they saved your soul?

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27396344 - 07/21/21 09:38 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Good question. Dealing with religious fanatics is a very touchy subject, now or in our speculations.. You don't wanna hinder their beliefs or step on their right to believe what they will, so... I would say that those situations are rare and isolated enough that there is really no precursory option one could take to stop, curb, or manipulate the outcome of such things..
Jus deal with them on a individual basis I reckon


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27396797 - 07/21/21 03:15 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

You realize that's inherently problematic, right?

It doesn't even have to be religious fanatics. Doesn't have to be greedy drug pushers. The whole point of this thought experiment is "How would an anarchic society deal with antisocial people?"

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27397559 - 07/22/21 06:12 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I do understand that . Humans can be inherently problematic more often than not..
However in the examples put forth the antisocial person is somewhat an antagonist, when I don't necessarily see them as such. Ppl can be antisocial and harmless more often that is the case.. however in all cases what are we "supposed" to do with problematic ppl? Even now.. not like the Sackler fam got punished by our capitalist overlords right.. and I don't see the big deal here. They get managed now in a certain way and in anarchy they would just be managed in a similar fashion. Jus bc one may not want to fit into a community doesn't mean one can't still live and thrive and be ancillary to the community. Some ppl will be that way and under anarchist ideals it would be their right to subsist however and to he left alone..


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27397741 - 07/22/21 09:24 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ashfiken said:
Some ppl will be that way and under anarchist ideals it would be their right to subsist however and to he left alone..




And how do you stop them when they start killing people inadvertently? What do you do when some guy pollutes so much that the entire western half of the US catches on fire? Who hods them accountable?

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27397800 - 07/22/21 10:10 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

They will get stopped. Instead of prison, prob loss of life.
Same tht happened to ppl that did nefarious shit in the wild west. Closest america has in its history to anarchy.. ppl acted with respect oftentimes bc they knew everyone had the ability, wherewithall, and freedom to solve problems as they see fit, at that moment.
Dunno what else to say really except individual or community rule would be tasked with stopping and holding bad actors accountable.
In the wild west if you stole a cow from the wrong mfer, he shot you.
If you robbed trains, the local coalition, put you in a dark cell or shot you.
If you raped and murdered or set things on fire, you would be stopped by ppl that don't wanna deal with the bullshit. There simply is no CENTRAL authority, doesn't mean ppl wouldn't act as their own authority in such situations. And I don't see how that is bad as long as nobody wears their justice cape too tight or becomes a justice warrior which isn't what it should be about. It's pretty easy when consensus is already established to recognize someone that needs to be dealt with for aggravating said consensus


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27397836 - 07/22/21 10:41 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

It's all fun and games until people start getting killed with your wild west "vigilante justice". This kind of thing leads to reprisals and gang wars that will be fought out on the street with nobody to stop them, with innocent people getting hurt as a result.

The reality is that if we tried to switch to a full anarchist system there would end up being factions formed that would arm themselves and go to war with eachother, vying for power and control over resources and territory.

The only way it works is if everyone in an anarchist society are reasonable, responsible people that respect eachother. Do you see such a picture in America at the moment?

Of course, what we have now isn't working either, so it's not like we don't need something to change. I'm not saying big government and centralized authority is the solution.

I think people have a tendency to see anarchism/communism as the "answer" to the country's problems because of how fucked up things are right now. But what is really needed is a shift at a spiritual level. A return to Oneness. People need to remember that we're all One and that to hurt another is the same as harming the self. People need to want to share resources and engage in fruitful co-operation to assist eachother in building a better world. Until this spiritual shift takes place little of consequence will change and humanity will be at war with itself for eternity.

We will never know world peace until three people can simultaneously look eachother straight in the eye.

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: chopstick]
    #27398037 - 07/22/21 01:28 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

All fun and games? Is it better to have a burgeoning prison system or let idiots get solved by the mass consensus?

BTW already been mentioned that it would take ppl with a better grasp and understanding of the world and each other than what we have today, then kryptos started with the what if examples...


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

Edited by ashfiken (07/22/21 01:29 PM)

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: chopstick]
    #27398108 - 07/22/21 02:47 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

People need to want to share resources and engage in fruitful co-operation to assist eachother in building a better world



 
  You need give me $500 or just admit that you don't actually believe that .


--------------------

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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27398118 - 07/22/21 03:01 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

It might be hard for you to believe but I do believe it.

I hardly have any money but even when I do I give out money to homeless people when they ask all the time.. even if it's my last $20 and I know I won't get paid for a week.

I know that it hardly makes any difference at a societal level but it's just an example.

That said, there is a difference between mutual sharing of resources that goes to a common good, or giving to someone who is truly in need, versus giving a stranger $500 on the internet who doesn't actually need it. We both know I'm not getting anything in return for giving you $500. I don't get anything from giving a homeless guy money either, but it does make me feel better knowing that now someone who couldn't afford to eat lunch today will be able to do so.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27398556 - 07/22/21 09:46 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ashfiken said:
They will get stopped. Instead of prison, prob loss of life.
Same tht happened to ppl that did nefarious shit in the wild west. Closest america has in its history to anarchy.. ppl acted with respect oftentimes bc they knew everyone had the ability, wherewithall, and freedom to solve problems as they see fit, at that moment.
Dunno what else to say really except individual or community rule would be tasked with stopping and holding bad actors accountable.
In the wild west if you stole a cow from the wrong mfer, he shot you.
If you robbed trains, the local coalition, put you in a dark cell or shot you.
If you raped and murdered or set things on fire, you would be stopped by ppl that don't wanna deal with the bullshit. There simply is no CENTRAL authority, doesn't mean ppl wouldn't act as their own authority in such situations. And I don't see how that is bad as long as nobody wears their justice cape too tight or becomes a justice warrior which isn't what it should be about. It's pretty easy when consensus is already established to recognize someone that needs to be dealt with for aggravating said consensus




Again, you keep talking about violent people. I'm not talking about the guy raping and murdering, I don;t really care about the guy raping and murdering. I'm talking about the oil baron that literally kills the planet with pollution. You know, the one that sells you modern transportation? You gonna shoot him? You gonna give up gasoline?

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27398715 - 07/23/21 02:15 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

ashfiken said:
Some ppl will be that way and under anarchist ideals it would be their right to subsist however and to he left alone..




And how do you stop them when they start killing people inadvertently? What do you do when some guy pollutes so much that the entire western half of the US catches on fire? Who hods them accountable?





Sorry didn't put enough emphasis on the inadvertent part...honestly I think we have that problem now.. there is the issue with oil spills and pollution in the current climate.. nobody is really held accountable we jus deal with the ramifications.and it's rarely "one guy". However similar, I do think in stripping the capitalist mindset there would be less propensity for this sorta thing to happen. Ie under anarchist rule little would be gained from polluting your most valuable resource to provide another. That ideal would be amplified and restricted by the fact there would so much less to gain (hypothetically) in that environ than in the current


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27398969 - 07/23/21 10:00 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

See, I disagree.

Fundamentally, oil barons don't exist because of profits. Oil barons exist because our world runs on oil. Now, oil barons did of course push that reliance on oil, but they are not the only example of a new and promising technological advancement having unfortunate and unforeseen side effects.

Capitalist ideologies definitely make the problem worse, but they do not define the problem entirely. The problem is the ability for someone to become so entrenched within society that they can escape punishment. Oil barons power the world, cigarette/pharma companies generate addicts, social media generates depressed addicts, etc.

I don't see how an anarchist society is better equipped to deal with those people. It seems that it is explicitly under-equipped, compared to modern society. That's why I brought up Rand earlier.

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27399221 - 07/23/21 01:22 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm I am keen to see what you are saying, that certain tenets of the world would not change ie the necessity for oil/phones/software/drugs will not go away.

And that idea brings forth the lack of structure in place to deal with the concerns brought about by these necessities in anarchic schemes.

I don't deny there would be little power over those that we will say "have made themselves indispensable". Why could we not just agree that they are necessary evils, combat the symptoms logically, and minimize damage that way best we can..

Is that not EXACTLY what we are doing now(or should/could be) except there are specific power structures that are supposed to deal with those things formidably and however don't..
May I pose this question then? if you think anarchy would be Ill equipped please explain how "better" equipped we are now moreso than if there was no structure in place? How are these things getting dealt with now that would lead you to believe we would be ANY worse off "then" I guess as I see it we suck now pretty bad at curbing these things so why not jus take a new shot in the dark kinda vibe ya know?


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: ashfiken]
    #27399361 - 07/23/21 03:51 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Cigarette companies are a pretty good example. After several decades of public, private, and everything in between programs combating cigarette use, smoking rates are falling.

I've seen Phillip Morris ads recently that say "here's to a smoke free future", with their CEO. Of course they're disingenuous, but the fact that the biggest cigarette company in the world is running "anti-smoking" (at least on the surface) ads, tells me that public opinion has shifted.

That shift did not happen on its own. That shift was the results of a lot of work between people and governments, taxation policy, and other generally hierarchical structures.

I think international relations are a good way to look at anarchism. Outside of various methods of forceful intervention, countries can essentially do whatever they want without anybody stopping them. One country can unilaterally decide to pollute the world so much that there are mass deaths planetwide, and there isn't shit anyone can do about it without starting a war.

Of course, starting a war is a pretty clear example of a centralized power compelling agreement in a winner-takes-all conflict. Not very anarchic.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27399381 - 07/23/21 04:05 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Anarchism is not dogma or a blueprint. It is not a system that would supposedly work if it were only applied right, like democracy, nor is it a goal to be realized in some far-off future, like communism. It is a way of acting and relating that we can put into practice right now. In reference to any value system or course of action, we can begin by asking: How does it distribute power?




As shivas poined out, anarchism seems less like a goal and more like a process by which to judge society.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27399506 - 07/23/21 05:57 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Last Saturday this young woman approached me while I was studying in the back of the bar. She's a labor organizer which is cool, with the I.W.W, which blew my mind. She found out my background and kept saying she can't wait to talk to me again. She's half my age, so oh well on that, but should make for an interesting friend.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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