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shivas.wisdom
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Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world?
#27236108 - 03/03/21 10:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Shivas, what do you think is one of the biggest reasons why some of the anarchist tenants have not taken hold within the world?
From what I can see, as a historical prospective, anarchy seems to be a short lived state after a revolution or failed state, that transitions and/or morphs into another political philosophy. Why is that?
Quote:
Kryptos said: Not shivas, but my two cents:
Money and Power.
Revolutions don't happen for free. There's a certain (large) amount of mythology surrounding the US revolution, but the fact is that George Washington was the richest person in the US colonies at the time of the revolution. He wasn't interested in freedom for the common man, so much as he was interested in freedom from the British treaties that didn't allow him to expand his wealth violently westward into Indian territory.
Anarchists, on the other hand, are almost always peasants/peasant armies. Again, the two biggest militant anarchist movements of the 20th century were the Green Russians, who did somewhere between jack and shit, and the Black Army, who did a little bit more, but were decapitated and unable to reorganize afterward.
The people with money and the people with power have a vested interest in the status quo, which provided either the money or the power (or both). Anarchists throughout history have been table flippers and game changers, which is a direct threat to people that are interested in the status quo.
Anarchists are always the weak link. You can machine gun peasants and labor unionists with virtually no reprisal, because everybody that has the power to stop you hates them as well.
Pretty good assessment imo - here's my go:
I would identify lack of popular support as the main obstacle. Consider another peasant army, the Zapatistas; despite Chiapas being an historically impoverished and excluded region of Mexico, the MAREZ have achieved significant improvements in quality of life for their people since the 1994 uprising. A decentralized peasant army has been able to resist the money and power of the Mexican state because it has the support of the people.
Now, it's important to recognize that Zapatismo isn't anarchism - but that doesn't mean we can't still take inspiration. In the words of Subcomandante Insurgente Galeano,
Zapatismo is not an ideology, it is not a bought and paid for doctrine. It is… an intuition. Something so open and flexible that it really occurs in all places. Zapatismo poses the question: ‘What is it that has excluded me?’ ‘What is it that has isolated me?'… In each place the response is different. Zapatismo simply states the question and stipulates that the response is plural, that the response is inclusive…
One thing to remember is that anarchism is fundamentally different from state governance. A fascist army can take over a democratic state, and a democratic army can take over a fascist state - but you can't force someone to be an anarchist in the same way that you can force someone to obey a fascist dictator or democratic vote. Anarchism is rooted in individual autonomy - a large-scale anarchist society will grow organically through willing participants or not at all. This quote from Thoreau's Civil Disobedience has always resonated with me,
I heartily accept the motto, - 'That government is best which governs least'; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, - 'That government is best which governs not at all'; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.
So if anarchism works, why isn't it more popular?
The height of popular support for anarchism would have been revolutionary Catalonia during the Spanish civil war. This was the closest we've ever been to the establishment of a large-scale anarchist society. There's entire books written about it's failure - and I'm definitely coming from a biased and ever-so-slightly-bitter anarchist perspective - but the basic idea is that it was a result of the presiding social context rather than any functional error in anarchist theory - and by 'social context' I mean betrayal by state-communist allies. This was the end of anarchism's classical period.
Afterwards, WW2 and the cold war politics that followed didn't exactly offer fertile ground for a resurgence of an anarchist movement. The USSR provided a beacon (and funding) for left-wing revolutionaries around the globe, leading to state-communism taking predominance among the left and bleeding off potential anarchists to the more successful ideology. Severely repressed by capitalists, stalinists, and fascists - the movement was a shadow of itself for decades.
Unfortunately, although you can't force someone to be an anarchist, you can definitely force someone to not be one. As Krypto's mentioned, anarchists have consistently threatened the power apparatus of the state directly, rather than merely forcing a revolutionary shift in power; because of this, anarchists have historically experienced significant repression by state powers. Ever wonder why 'anarchy' and 'chaos' are considered synonymous terms? That's the firm result of decades of anti-anarchist propaganda, my friends. Many people today are completely unfamiliar with the ideology, but still experience a knee-jerk aversion to the word that makes learning about it exceedingly difficult.
That's starting to change though. Globally, the anarchist movement is experiencing the highest support since WW2. My guess is that an increasingly precarious society is partly responsible - because in times of disaster and instability, what matters is what works - not the political label. For example, consider how often you may have heard about mutual aid via mainstream sources in the last few years - that's an anarchist tenet taking hold as changing circumstances start to make it a necessity. Flipping around all the way to the beginning of my response - anarchism is fundamentally different from state governance - it's all too easy to miss the anarchy we practice in our daily lives because we're so preoccupied looking for a revolutionary anarchist state.
I don't have the patience to wait for some future anarchist utopia - I wouldn't expect anyone else to either. Luckily, anarchy grows from the ground up - you don't need to wait if you don't want to. There is nothing stopping you from making, at any moment, the individual decision to 'neither rule nor be ruled' - that's the most basic anarchist tenet of all. As Renzo Novatore cried out,
You are waiting for the revolution? Let it be! My own began a long time ago! When you are ready (god, what an endless wait!) I won’t mind going with you for a while. But when you stop, I shall continue on my way toward the great and sublime conquest of the nothing!
Just my 2c and I probably rushed to complete it at the end but ask questions if your interested and maybe I'll develop the ideas further
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/04/21 12:00 AM)
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Lynnch
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27236290 - 03/04/21 02:42 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have a hard time envisioning anarchy. Would the trains run on time? Would we have trains?
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The Dalcassian
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Lynnch] 1
#27236297 - 03/04/21 03:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've used to identify as an anarchist but really an anarchist state can't exist, as any type of group or community becomes something other than anarchy.
Imo anarchists can live in society, but society can't exist in a state of anarchy.
An anarchist will do as they please, when they please but often we wouldn't recognise one unless they go against the norm in such as way to attract media attention.
You could be an anarchist and not break any laws ever, so long as those laws coincide with how that anarchist chooses to behave in any given moment.
And that's the crux of it, an anarchist makes his own choices every time. He can take into account the repercussions that his environment might impose on him but its his choice. If he accepts prison as a consequence as chooses to do it anyway, then prison isn't a punishment, its just an environmental change due to his choices.
Like most thing it's just perspective.
-------------------- Here Lies This Individual 
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27236355 - 03/04/21 04:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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It’s impossible to implement on any scale in this world because over 7 billion people are competing for the same resources.
Paradoxically, in a sense we do live in a state of a certain kind of anarchism. No law is legit but power reigns supreme. Obviously, this isn’t classical non-hierarchical Proudhon or Bakunin anarchism but if you take out the recognition of their authority, governments and the supremely rich enjoy an existence where no other can tie them down with laws, rules, or institutions. That is to say, one way of thinking about anarchism is it’s a return to the lawlessness of pre-agrarian man. A natural state. Well, you cannot go against nature because if you do that’s part of nature too. This is just the current manifestation of that kind of anarchism. It’s kind of like mindfulness meditation. For some, the ultimate goal is a constant state of mindfulness. As the layers are peeled off the illusion of self the end result circles back around to where enlightenment finally just means being what you are which is what you were doing before you started meditating.
I’m sure some who see this point will think the problem is I don’t know what anarchism or enlightenment are. Please try to see my point that they are both, at least in large part, circular concepts.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Mach z 800
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#27236469 - 03/04/21 07:35 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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All we need is some one to make a nice emp an take out our power gridd.than we can have a madd max like world.
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Mach z 800
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#27236478 - 03/04/21 07:41 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheFakeSunRa said: It’s impossible to implement on any scale in this world because over 7 billion people are competing for the same resources.
Paradoxically, in a sense we do live in a state of a certain kind of anarchism. No law is legit but power reigns supreme. Obviously, this isn’t classical non-hierarchical Proudhon or Bakunin anarchism but if you take out the recognition of their authority, governments and the supremely rich enjoy an existence where no other can tie them down with laws, rules, or institutions. That is to say, one way of thinking about anarchism is it’s a return to the lawlessness of pre-agrarian man. A natural state. Well, you cannot go against nature because if you do that’s part of nature too. This is just the current manifestation of that kind of anarchism. It’s kind of like mindfulness meditation. For some, the ultimate goal is a constant state of mindfulness. As the layers are peeled off the illusion of self the end result circles back around to where enlightenment finally just means being what you are which is what you were doing before you started meditating.
I’m sure some who see this point will think the problem is I don’t know what anarchism or enlightenment are. Please try to see my point that they are both, at least in large part, circular concepts.
we just gotta make a time machine an bring hitler back he would get the job done.
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stubb
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27236497 - 03/04/21 08:00 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
A decentralized peasant army has been able to resist the money and power of the Mexican state because it has the support of the people.
And a steady inflow of cash from American coffee drinkers.
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Asante
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Lynnch]
#27236505 - 03/04/21 08:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lynnch said: I have a hard time envisioning anarchy. Would the trains run on time? Would we have trains?

Would trains people be left alone if they chose the bathroom that fit them?
I think anarchy is impopular because a) people are indoctrinated into thinking its nothing more than kids blowing up mailboxes and b) most people are submissive, thereby desire another to take the lead as opposed to being on their own or even, top dog.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (03/04/21 08:06 AM)
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#27237893 - 03/04/21 11:06 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Because it doesn't work, is temporary, and will evolve/devolve into a monarchy/dictatorship of some sort anyway.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27240903 - 03/06/21 07:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think the key to anarchy is to let shit go. You have to be willing to roll dice and let shit go. It’s all about control tho and making sure things are structured under a well regulated and pre determined framework. But this won’t serve anarchy.
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metalfaith
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#27241391 - 03/07/21 04:10 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just started reading Animal Farm again 2 days ago. Been several years for me.
You want to know what anarchy AND communism can't even exist for the long term? Read Orwell.. He makes that shit about as simple as a childrens fairy tale but also as real as any burgeoning political revolution.
I'm serious, he may not make it explicit and explain each piece and how it relates to human nature, but instead he writes that poetically into the narrative of he story.
Anarchy is like the Beats phase(or maybe part of), every young male has a phase where it appears appealing. Then we grow up, get a bit more life experience and realize how completely untenable such ideas are.
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: metalfaith] 3
#27241453 - 03/07/21 05:53 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Orwell was a socialist who believed that capitalism was oppressive by design. Animal Farm isn’t a warning against communism; it’s a warning against doing it wrong. Animal Farm is about avoiding past mistakes as we transition out of capitalism. It’s basically a let’s do it right this time manual. Read Homage to Catalonia Read Burmese Days Read Down and Out in Paris and London
Quote:
Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it.
-George Orwell
Orwell saw socialism as a careful step toward anarchism.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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metalfaith
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#27241473 - 03/07/21 06:45 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have actually read those, it's been quite a few years.
You are right, i likely forgot his personal views. While I don't think I agree that animal farm isn't a criticism of communism, I accept I barely remember anything except some of Burmese Days and could easily be wrong.
Nevertheless, regardless of his personal views, his development of the plot and it's example of human nature is a perfectly simple and right on the money example of how these things progress in reality, whether starting from anarchy or communism, the same development of wealth, resources, and intelligence leads to the same development of hierarchy.
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: metalfaith]
#27241582 - 03/07/21 08:24 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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A story about a man who eats too much, gets fat, and dies isn’t an indictment against food. It’s about avoiding mistakes, not a statement that a certain chain of events is unavoidable. Your take on Animal Farm is right in line with basically anyone who teaches middle or high school English which is quite frankly wrong. Orwell would be sick that Animal Farm is used to reinforce our belief in American exceptionalism when in fact America is exactly the kind of tyrannical society he was warning us about.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Kryptos
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: TheFakeSunRa] 1
#27241736 - 03/07/21 10:52 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nah, Orwell didn't predict US society at all.
Huxley did.
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: Kryptos]
#27241764 - 03/07/21 11:28 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Nah, Orwell didn't predict US society at all.
Huxley did.
They both did.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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metalfaith
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#27241869 - 03/07/21 12:41 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I made no claim whatsoever about American exveptionalism? Where the fuck did you come up with that? Especially not using Aminal Farm in to do so.
Real confused where you got that.
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metalfaith
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: metalfaith]
#27241878 - 03/07/21 12:47 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Additionally, I don't need nor do I particularly care about his personal beliefs. (Edit: I probably was a bit misleading in the phrasing of my initial post.) I was simply saying that the story and it's development of a revolution is a perfectly simple and accurate story that can be used as an extrapolation of what would happen in any world that could be remotely called anarchy.
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but my point is power vacuums never stay vacuums. Power wealth and influence always produce a leader and someone in power.
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Edited by metalfaith (03/07/21 12:53 PM)
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: metalfaith]
#27241963 - 03/07/21 01:53 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I’m kind of down with what you’re saying because I don’t necessarily think a reader has to exactly extrapolate the author’s exact intent to find value in the story. I always think there’s layers of meaning in literature and it can be a kind of Rorschach test. Also, I may have over-reached concerning my assumptions of where you were going with what you said.
The following is outside of what you said so it’s not directed at you:
Orwell and Animal Farm in particular is commonly taught as specifically a warning about the dangers of communism with the implied message that capitalism or even Americanism is the preferred and correct political course. It’s not exactly surprising that American schools exploit Orwell’s message into American propaganda. However, I jumped the gun accusing you of the same crime.
My bad.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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towndaze
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Re: Why have anarchist tenets not taken hold within the world? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27242635 - 03/08/21 03:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Anarchists have a bad track record being put in front of firing squads by their autocratic compatriots once they stop being useful as shock troops. Eventually that kind of spoils everyone's appetite for the idea.

Most other ideologies have at least a theoretical safeguard against being CTRL+ALT-DEL'd at the nearest possible convenience once the dust has settled.
Anarchy's kind of failed to address the "useful idiot for the very people we want gone the most"-stigma.
-------------------- Time is nature's way of making sure that everything doesn't happen at once.
Edited by towndaze (03/08/21 03:32 AM)
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