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OnlineRenegadeMycologist
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #27221590 - 02/23/21 07:30 AM (3 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

RenegadeMycologist said:
Can originally described subaeruginosa be conspecific with azurescens, just an idea and a question ?




Unlikely since the azurescens sequence hasn't turned up in Australia or New Zealand.



How far is Azurescens sequence from Subaeruginosa ?


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:mushroom2:  l e a r n i n g  t h i n g s :mushroom2:


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #27221696 - 02/23/21 08:53 AM (3 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

RenegadeMycologist said:
How far is Azurescens sequence from Subaeruginosa ?




If I remember correctly the two species' sequences match with more than 99%, and the same apparently goes for P. cyanescens and P. allenii as well.


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OnlineRenegadeMycologist
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Anglerfish]
    #27221755 - 02/23/21 09:36 AM (3 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Anglerfish said:
Quote:

RenegadeMycologist said:
How far is Azurescens sequence from Subaeruginosa ?




If I remember correctly the two species' sequences match with more than 99%, and the same apparently goes for P. cyanescens and P. allenii as well.



Woah. Very interesting. Thanks :thumbup:


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OfflineMycoangulo

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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #27224813 - 02/24/21 11:10 PM (1 day, 15 hours ago)

There is very little genetic difference between any of the cyanescens complex species, except perhaps Psilocybe makarorae.

In addition to cyanescens, subaeruginosa, alenii and azyrescens you can I expect add Psilocybe weraroa and the undescribed varieties often called 'subsecotioides' to the 'sequences match 99%+' group.



Don't be fooled by the crazy shapes. They are close family.


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Anglerfish] * 1
    #27224976 - 02/25/21 12:32 AM (1 day, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Anglerfish said:
Very cool!

I think I mentioned once in a similar debate that it was curious that the type collection of P. cyanescens
was done in Kew Royal Botanical Gardens, and whether it was possible it was imported.

You say "in the wild" - how wild in this instance? Since its regular habitat is usually man-made.



I'm quite positive that cyanescens are introduced to europe, seems like there are two branches in the cyanescens complex. My hypothesis is that subaeruginosa as a species concept is very similar to azurescens, and that cyanescens and allenii branched from azurescens. Seems likely they made their way to the West coast on wood debris that was then washed up in our forested coastline and floodplains during large storm/tidal/tsunami event(s). I am thinking that the separation occurred over here given the limited distribution of Ps. azurescens and the cold dominant cyanescens and the warmer dominant allenii. Given the importation of plant material across the globe, I imagine that cyans could pop up anywhere. Still waiting to hear from some New Zealand or Aussie locals to hunt the coastline dunes and floodplains for me.
just my 2cents. I could be wrong.:shrug:


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #27224987 - 02/25/21 12:37 AM (1 day, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

RenegadeMycologist said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

RenegadeMycologist said:
Can originally described subaeruginosa be conspecific with azurescens, just an idea and a question ?




Unlikely since the azurescens sequence hasn't turned up in Australia or New Zealand.



How far is Azurescens sequence from Subaeruginosa ?



super close, they are all very close..
I really am a strong advocate for full genomic sequencing, were are really taking tiny bits of dna, were doing it as best as possible with the best bits according to the research, but man. genomic sequencing ver genetic sequencing. i think it could help a lot in other regions that are not often used as much like the RPB# and LSU ect..
ITS i think can only get you so far.. at least this was what i came to understand from my systematics prof.:shrug:
I could be wrong though


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Joust]
    #27225049 - 02/25/21 01:23 AM (1 day, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

RenegadeMycologist said:
How far is Azurescens sequence from Subaeruginosa ?





Very close, and when you dig into the chromatograms it looks even closer. 

Even if they are identical, that doesn't mean they are the same species.  There are quite a few cases where clearly different species can have the same ITS sequence.

Given that there isn't much sequence difference, not much macroscopic difference, no microscopic difference, an argument could be made that they are the same. 



Quote:

Joust said:
super close, they are all very close..
I really am a strong advocate for full genomic sequencing, were are really taking tiny bits of dna, were doing it as best as possible with the best bits according to the research, but man. genomic sequencing ver genetic sequencing. i think it could help a lot in other regions that are not often used as much like the RPB# and LSU ect..
ITS i think can only get you so far.. at least this was what i came to understand from my systematics prof.:shrug:
I could be wrong though




I'll be doing full genome sequencing on P. azurescens soon.  Which questions this will answer isn't clear though, it might show some differences in the psilocybin genes which give clues about woodlover paralysis.


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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #27225088 - 02/25/21 02:17 AM (1 day, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:


Quote:

Joust said:
super close, they are all very close..
I really am a strong advocate for full genomic sequencing, were are really taking tiny bits of dna, were doing it as best as possible with the best bits according to the research, but man. genomic sequencing ver genetic sequencing. i think it could help a lot in other regions that are not often used as much like the RPB# and LSU ect..
ITS i think can only get you so far.. at least this was what i came to understand from my systematics prof.:shrug:
I could be wrong though




I'll be doing full genome sequencing on P. azurescens soon.  Which questions this will answer isn't clear though, it might show some differences in the psilocybin genes which give clues about woodlover paralysis.



I have a feeling it might be helpful for a number of things, but I agree with you Alan by saying that Im not certain how much Genomic sequencing will help seperate species, especially with only one sequence. figure it cant hurt though! :hi:


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


Edited by Joust (02/25/21 02:17 AM)


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OfflineMycoangulo

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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Joust]
    #27225098 - 02/25/21 02:30 AM (1 day, 12 hours ago)

I don't know if Alan is saying it might not be helpful. I interpret what he said as we don't know enough about what to expect to be able to predict the answers we will get, but it can be expected to be revealing of plenty. It certainly is likely, I would imagine, tht it will give helpful clues for where might be productive to look next.

Quote:

'I'm quite positive that cyanescens are introduced to europe, seems like there are two branches in the cyanescens complex. My hypothesis is that subaeruginosa as a species concept is very similar to azurescens, and that cyanescens and allenii branched from azurescens. Seems likely they made their way to the West coast on wood debris that was then washed up in our forested coastline and floodplains during large storm/tidal/tsunami event(s). I am thinking that the separation occurred over here given the limited distribution of Ps. azurescens and the cold dominant cyanescens and the warmer dominant allenii. Given the importation of plant material across the globe, I imagine that cyans could pop up anywhere. Still waiting to hear from some New Zealand or Aussie locals to hunt the coastline dunes and floodplains for me.'




There are dune subs.

My very speculative theory is that the ancestor of the cyanescens complex lived in NZ/Aust and the closest species to it alive today is Psilocybe makarorae.

I think Psilocybe alenii and cyanescens are likely to have spread out from both countries or just NZ and azurescens from Australia.

I know that there is no sequence result that matches azurescens in NZ or Australia, but how many sequences of 'subs' have been done? I don't see the lack of evidence being strong evidence that they aren't here.

Anyway, my theory is light on concrete evidence and as I said, highly speculative. But that's my hunch.


--------------------


Edited by Mycoangulo (02/25/21 07:33 AM)


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OfflineMycoangulo

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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Mycoangulo]
    #27225102 - 02/25/21 02:32 AM (1 day, 12 hours ago)

Is alenii really that that strongly adapted to the warm, or is it just that it was introduced to North america in the Bay area?

I know it survives in British Columbia.


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Mycoangulo]
    #27225109 - 02/25/21 02:51 AM (1 day, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Mycoangulo said:
Is alenii really that that strongly adapted to the warm, or is it just that it was introduced to North america in the Bay area?

I know it survives in British Columbia.



In my opinion, it is clear how azzies are very limited and most prolific in the Columbia river delta, seems cyans are more common from there up north to BC and allenii from the delta south to the bay..

Maybe alan can chime in about how spores might reflect that as an adaptation.

Seems very suspicious that this deliniation occurs. Seems allenii and cyans are more adapted to the PNW conifers and deciduous while azzies seem to very comfortable with habitat similar to subs. (shore pine in the west coastline.
not sure if this is making sense...
But yeah its all just speculation with minor evidence :stayfunky:


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


Edited by Joust (02/25/21 02:51 AM)


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OfflineItzpapalotl
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Joust]
    #27225159 - 02/25/21 04:33 AM (1 day, 10 hours ago)

I think any information we can discover about woodlover paralysis can be imensely helpful! I hope we can get more insight about this phenomenon. I have had this occur to me and it was both a frightening and helpful experience after integration. Thank you Allen for all your dedication to the field of mycology, especially the support you provide to the aspiring mycologists in Mexico.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Joust]
    #27225170 - 02/25/21 04:55 AM (1 day, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Joust said:

I have a feeling it might be helpful for a number of things, but I agree with you Alan by saying that Im not certain how much Genomic sequencing will help seperate species, especially with only one sequence. figure it cant hurt though!




Genomic sequencing will answer so many questions in the future as our ability to understand them evolves.  With regards to delimiting species, with full genomes you can also test for the flow of sequence variants in aggregate. This will tell you whether populations are interbreeding, which isn't exactly the same as species since fungi can hybridize, but it's another data point.


Psilocybe allenii exists in the northern part of the PNW, but does much better further south, like the bay area.  It also does better than cyanescens inland in California, where it's hotter and drier.  Perhaps its chunkier stature is an adaptation for dry conditions, as the thin cyanescens caps can dry out really quickly.


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OnlineRenegadeMycologist
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Mycoangulo]
    #27225229 - 02/25/21 06:23 AM (1 day, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Mycoangulo said:
'I'm quite positive that cyanescens are introduced to europe, seems like there are two branches in the cyanescens complex. My hypothesis is that subaeruginosa as a species concept is very similar to azurescens, and that cyanescens and allenii branched from azurescens.



I was thinking almost the same. How many subs are sequenced, not many. And those sequenced parts can maybe fool us, or somebody mix samples in the lab. That's why I though subs and azurescens are conspecific, they even look alike, long stem, strong umbo, just that azzies are more potent. But with my experience in mushroom growing potency can vary drastically due to the growing conditions. I'm starting to learn the baciss of dna sequencing but I guess the best thing is to do a full genome sequence, I saw Alan already did that for like 17 hallucinogenic mushrooms.


Edited by RenegadeMycologist (02/25/21 07:03 AM)


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OfflineMycoangulo

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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #27225275 - 02/25/21 07:26 AM (1 day, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

'they even look alike, long stem, strong umbo'





Sometimes

Subs can't be boxed in like that though...



Here are some subs that don'y look like that.

I swear that subs are more varied in appearance than all of the rest
of section cyan outside of NZ combined.
Quote:


' just that azzies are more potent.'




I think there is an overlap, so on average yes but not in every case.


--------------------


Edited by Mycoangulo (02/25/21 07:33 AM)


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InvisibleRogerTheRetard
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Mycoangulo]
    #27226097 - 02/25/21 05:03 PM (21 hours, 33 minutes ago)

I have found subaerugionosa that look superficially like azurescens in a sand/woodchip habitat along the perimeter of a beach.

I'm fairly sure that subaeruginosa, cyanescens and azurescens and allenii are all indeed separate species.

All are Section Cyanescens clade mushrooms and look alike besides shape...

The aforementioned 4 all do look fairly identical besides shape. They all share the same colour and grow in the same habitat.

Only pileus shape differentiates them macroscopically.


--------------------

:mushroom2:angulospora:heart:subaeruginosa:heart:subsecotioides:heart:tasmaniana:mushroom2::bigweed:


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OfflineMycoangulo

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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: RogerTheRetard]
    #27226296 - 02/25/21 07:28 PM (19 hours, 8 minutes ago)

I don't dispute the reality of cyanescens, azurescens and alenii being real species.

However I do not think that Psilocybe subaeruginosa as defined by what would get ID'd as subaeruginosa in ID requests, is a real species.

I think in both New Zealand and Australia it is basically the term for any section cyanescens mushroom that isn't makarorae or some kind of pouch or semi pouch fungi.

I think that 'subaeruginosa' includes the other named species and other undescribed species.

There is no way that what we call subaeruginosa is just one species.


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InvisibleRogerTheRetard
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Mycoangulo]
    #27226454 - 02/25/21 09:01 PM (17 hours, 35 minutes ago)

Psilocybe allenii and Psilocybe cyanescens are shaped differently than Psilocybe subaeruginosa, yet they indeed do look like they could all just be different phenotypes of Psilocybe subaeruginosa.
Psilocybe azurescens included, azures look strikingly similar to subs...

Perhaps the aforementioned species are just all separate varietys of the same species?

Kind of how Psilocybe subsecotioides is just a separate variety of Psilocybe weraroa.


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OfflineMycoangulo

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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: RogerTheRetard]
    #27226800 - 02/26/21 01:16 AM (13 hours, 19 minutes ago)

I quote Taxonomist Jerry Cooper.

'The current phylogenetic data indicate there might be two very similar but different semi-secotioid species, in addition to secotioid variability in P. weraora . These variants are called informally P. 'subsecotioides' but that has not been published and so not attributable to any specific taxon. They require more work to disentangle them from P. weraroa and confirm as real species'


Source:

https://inaturalist.nz/journal/cooperj


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Edited by Mycoangulo (02/26/21 01:20 AM)


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InvisibleRogerTheRetard
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Re: Psilocybe cyanescens turns up in New Zealand, again [Re: Mycoangulo]
    #27226872 - 02/26/21 03:04 AM (11 hours, 32 minutes ago)

More work does need to be done to confirm Psilocybe subsecotioides as a separate species to Psilocybe weraroa, I knew that!
Please disregard my prior statement about Psilocybe subsecotioides and Psilocybe weraroa being the same species...
That is an ignorant and not well thought out statement and I don't know why I said that. I'm really stoned.
:facepalm:

I already know that it is indeed uncertain if Psilocybe subsecotioides is just a variety of Psilocybe weraroa, or if Psilocybe subsecotioides is a different species than Psilocybe weraroa.

I'm merely just trying to suggest that Psilocybe allenii, Psilocybe azurescens, Psilocybe cyanscens and Psilocybe subaeruginosa are no doubt similar species anyway, regardless if they are separate varieties of the same species, or just separate species.

I'm in no position to comment on the mechanisms behind publishing an organism to official scientific literature as a "species" vs. as a "variety" of a species...
I'm a mere hunter and enthusiast. I'm no scientist or mycologist.

I'm not actually certain what distinguishes two organisms being separate species vs. being temperate variety of the same species?

If you do understand the true scientific definition between the words "species" and "variety" then please tell me...
It sounds like a loaded question but it is not.

To elaborate further about my thoughts on the subject...
If my theory is correct then we would have to re-name the aforementioned species as such...
I would assume that whatever species between allenii, azurescens, cyanescens and subaeruginosa was described first would take priority name...
allenii = 2012
azurescens = 1995
cyanescens = 1948
subaeruginosa = 1927

So it would technically be...
~ Psilocybe subaeruginosa
~ Psilocybe subaeruginosa var. allenii
~ Psilocybe subaeruginosa var. azurescens
~ Psilocybe subaeruginosa var. cyanescens


With further study, who is to say that the aforementioned four species are not all just "varieties" of the same "species"...
That is my main point at hand Mycoangulo...
Remember when you told me that "Panaeolus" and "Panaeolopsis" are the same species... Now I'm really confused!
And again, this brings me back to my point at hand!

What is a "species"...
What is a "variety"...
What even is a "species" by definition vs. what even is a "variety" by definition?

English is a pretty funny language. More so is "scientific nomenclature"...
:ilold:


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:mushroom2:angulospora:heart:subaeruginosa:heart:subsecotioides:heart:tasmaniana:mushroom2::bigweed:


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