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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Marxism/Communism 1
#27203586 - 02/13/21 12:29 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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I will discuss this here because Marxism and communist political philosophy have more to do with philosophy and sociology than politics per se.
The problems with Marxism and communism I see are the following:
Communism is even more ultra-materialistic than capitalism, so in a very fundamental sense it is no antidote to it. Materialistic ideas and behaviors are possibly the greatest blight on the world at this time.
Marxism is centered around the industrial revolution, which is the context in which it was formulated. In the modern world, we have gone beyond this milieu. Today, industry is not the center of the economy, which has moved more toward a service-based system. There is also the huge and growing dimension of technology, of which industry is only one facet.
In reality, in virtually every communist experiment we've seen, power never shifts from right to left. In other words, the idea is that communism begins with a powerful single leader, who facilitates a move ultimately to the far left, in which everyone has a totally equal station in a collective society. This shift never happens, and most communist countries are left with a dictator if not a police state indefinitely. Humans it seems are not fundamentally willing to share in a large-scale way.
Furthermore, in most communist societies in the twentieth century, the collective ownership of production does not result in a prosperous middle-class, if any middle-class even exists. China today is the exception, but they are economically capitalist.
So, imo, communism is doomed to failure, and Marxism is not a philosophy than can lead to a successful state. I am no great lover of capitalism, but communism is clearly no viable antidote to it. I think we have to realize that both capitalism and communism are superstructures built on a cultural and historical tradition that is failing due to its fragmentation and unsustainability, and that neither one can really successfully address the plethora of catastrophes facing us today.
China seems to be getting more done about modern issues than anybody, in their communist-capitalist hybrid system, but I don't think any of us would want to live there. It's a surveillance state engaging in genocide with no freedom of speech and a closed internet, in which the Shroomery does not exist. So while their government gets things done, I think their approach is no real solution for human beings.
So solutions are not ready.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
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. Additionally if anyone is interested to check out the history of Marx and communism they will find huge disconnects. I don't remember the details, but Marx's personal life was a mess. Neither he or his buddy lived a communist life style. Lenin was smuggled secretly into Russia. There are many tidbits of less well known facts about the history of communism in Russia and China. Today China's effectiveness comes largely from the fact that it is a total dictatorship that has very smart and immoral leaders.
. The one place where communism, may be working is in the Israeli Kibbutzim. I visited some as a teen ager over 50 years ago, but I have no detailed information. If communism really interests anyone though, I think they would have to do a little research on the Kibbutzim. Of course they only exist within a larger capitalist economy. The same is probably true of a few other small communities.
. I agree that the communist system is basically flawed. Partly because power corrupts, and absolute power... And although Dunbar's number is not the absolute truth (see The Human Swarm), it does suggest humans are not ideally suited for being happy in large groups. And my personal opinion is that just living in cities has harmful, subliminal effects on humans, which no form of government can fix. . If I imagined a utopia it would probably consist of interconnected villages, each surrounded by wilderness. . That there at present billions of people on the planet actually benefits no individuals (except perhaps Jeff Bezos, or rather his bottom line, but at his level of wealth even several billion dollars one way or the other makes no difference). . The world has simply become very weird and we have become numb, to how distorted human life is in many strange ways. IMO the idea that politics can fix things is a fantasy. Certainly Some politics makes things much worse. But to think there is a way to control the future in a way that benefits all, seems a fantasy, to me. . Beneath the surface, the surveillance state you mention is happening in many places, not just China; along with hacking. England / London has the most surveillance cameras. And in the rest of the West NSA and Google are data mining meta-data and personal data on us all. And of course North Korea and Singapore are also known as technologically sophisticated surveillance states.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
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I used to weigh the pluses and minuses to get it figured out. Then it dawned on me that the problems with all these systems is that they are facilitated by people. People are deeply flawed when viewed outside the lens of competition and procreation. If it weren't for that, any economic or government system would be fine. There is not enough good in humanity to make a system work.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Marxism/Communism [Re: Rahz] 1
#27204105 - 02/13/21 05:08 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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imagine a system that is managed by mycellium.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Marxism/Communism [Re: Rahz]
#27204139 - 02/13/21 05:27 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: I used to weigh the pluses and minuses to get it figured out. Then it dawned on me that the problems with all these systems is that they are facilitated by people. People are deeply flawed when viewed outside the lens of competition and procreation. If it weren't for that, any economic or government system would be fine. There is not enough good in humanity to make a system work.
" People are deeply flawed when viewed outside the lens of competition and procreation. "
What a strange statement, war is after all competition and procreation of course involves, divorce, affairs, sadomasochism, and murder of those caught having affairs. To say nothing of the horrors of how many kids are raised. I make no exception for folks involved in fighting & fucking.
Without that sentence I agree, with you.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
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Well inside the lens of competition and procreation it all makes perfect sense. And though you're beating around the bush with some accuracy, procreation just involves fucking.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
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Last seen: 27 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I will discuss this here because Marxism and communist political philosophy have more to do with philosophy and sociology than politics per se.
You're already a full step ahead of the entire Politics section of this site by realizing philosophy precludes politics.
There is no shortage of people that don't understand this and will double down when cornered, because they didn't rationally get themselves into their political position.
People choosing a political position that validates their preferred level of separation and ego/shitty personality, coupled with consensus = not a rational philosophy folks, sorry.
In fact, many of those philosophies, such as the one this thread is based on, have killed plenty of fellow human beings for exactly those fucking reasons, lol.
Philosophy and psychology preclude politics.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: imagine a system that is managed by mycellium.
We don't get to have such simplicity. The best we can hope for is to be ruled by a benevolent AI overlord... Which is about as likely as being managed my mycelium.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
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Re: Marxism/Communism [Re: Rahz]
#27204886 - 02/14/21 05:20 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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very much so
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Quote:
laughingdog said: . Additionally if anyone is interested to check out the history of Marx and communism they will find huge disconnects. I don't remember the details, but Marx's personal life was a mess. Neither he or his buddy lived a communist life style. Lenin was smuggled secretly into Russia. There are many tidbits of less well known facts about the history of communism in Russia and China. Today China's effectiveness comes largely from the fact that it is a total dictatorship that has very smart and immoral leaders.
. The one place where communism, may be working is in the Israeli Kibbutzim. I visited some as a teen ager over 50 years ago, but I have no detailed information. If communism really interests anyone though, I think they would have to do a little research on the Kibbutzim. Of course they only exist within a larger capitalist economy. The same is probably true of a few other small communities.
. I agree that the communist system is basically flawed. Partly because power corrupts, and absolute power... And although Dunbar's number is not the absolute truth (see The Human Swarm), it does suggest humans are not ideally suited for being happy in large groups. And my personal opinion is that just living in cities has harmful, subliminal effects on humans, which no form of government can fix. . If I imagined a utopia it would probably consist of interconnected villages, each surrounded by wilderness. . That there at present billions of people on the planet actually benefits no individuals (except perhaps Jeff Bezos, or rather his bottom line, but at his level of wealth even several billion dollars one way or the other makes no difference). . The world has simply become very weird and we have become numb, to how distorted human life is in many strange ways. IMO the idea that politics can fix things is a fantasy. Certainly Some politics makes things much worse. But to think there is a way to control the future in a way that benefits all, seems a fantasy, to me. . Beneath the surface, the surveillance state you mention is happening in many places, not just China; along with hacking. England / London has the most surveillance cameras. And in the rest of the West NSA and Google are data mining meta-data and personal data on us all. And of course North Korea and Singapore are also known as technologically sophisticated surveillance states.
Yes I agree on China. It's easier to get things done when you have a dictatorship and what is essentially a police state. There's not going to be any opposition to the Politburo's decrees, so, while they have a much more effective and proactive government than American democracy, which has basically failed, the cost is having no appreciable rights in the sense that we know them over here.
The Kibbutzim do indeed represent functioning communist enclaves, but they are tiny and not particularly hard to manage. Interestingly, what is considered the one larger scale communist society that functioned perfectly was that of the Mormon population in Utah in the 1850s, before statehood. Little known factoid.
I agree that living in cities is the most unnatural way for humans to live, and that it has real negative effects on the psyche and whole sensorium of the individual. Many people swear by cities, but I agree they are toxic to varying degrees.
As I said, I agree that politics, which is on the very surface of the thing, cannot transform the fundamental levels of civilization. This applies to capitalism, socialism and communism. These are merely surface manifestations.
Bernie Sanders said recently, though in reference to Trump, "The unthinkable has become normal." I think it has a much more general application.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Marxism...communism? Isn't that like so yesterday. Come on guys get creative. This isn't the 60s.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Came across this interesting tidbit:
"Marx pretended that he wanted the happiness of the proletariat, but he really wanted is the unhappiness of the bourgeois. And it was because of that negative element, because of that hate element that his philosophy produced disaster. A philosophy that wishes to do good must be one inspired by kindly feeling and not by unkindly feeling."
― Bertrand Russell, A Conversation with Bertrand Russell (1952)
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Marxism...communism? Isn't that like so yesterday. Come on guys get creative. This isn't the 60s.
It's still fair game for a philosophy forum!
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Bernie Sanders said recently, though in reference to Trump, "The unthinkable has become normal." I think it has a much more general application.
Bernie brags, "Ideas that a few years ago were considered radical are now mainstream"
Some of them ideas are pretty "unthinkable"
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
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Last seen: 27 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Marxism...communism? Isn't that like so yesterday. Come on guys get creative. This isn't the 60s.
It's still fair game for a philosophy forum!

This is the exact sub for it since there's no shortage of people that deny it's a philosophy in the political section, and insist irrational opinions constitute a quantifiable metric of ethics and morality versus you know, non-contradictory philosophies (premises and conclusions that don't contradict, I know it's hard, folks), lmao.
Who can explain the Communist/Marxist Metaphysic, and why it's flawed, class?
After that extremely simple step we can prove why the entire thing is a house of cards posing as a rational, and human philosophy - while exemplifying and ensuring the exact opposite.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
Edited by Loaded Shaman (02/15/21 12:24 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
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hey, maybe we are just looking at the wrong kind of marxism here
our brothers can give you a hint!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzcPVHwZo0YfCKfA_yCUoT_-i7vUaLEfd
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trippleblack
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you can't have capitalism without communism.. the two are absolutely a symbiotic relationship. on the the other hand, communism/ a technocratic society CAN exist without capitalism.
capitalism is brand new in human history and it's already over. even our mushroom legends with the big brands have gotten their weight in gold in communist/public/grant money.
the world would suck if only shrewd capitalist exist.. marx was hired by capitalist to institute a shared hyphae like network to prevent the senescence of a burned out tired culture.
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laughingdog
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Re: Marxism/Communism and surveillance today [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27207869 - 02/15/21 05:07 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: ....China.... It's a surveillance state engaging in genocide with no freedom of speech and a closed internet,... So solutions are not ready.
". Beneath the surface, the surveillance state you mention is happening in many places, not just China; along with hacking. England / London has the most surveillance cameras. And in the rest of the West NSA and Google are data mining meta-data and personal data on us all. And of course North Korea and Singapore are also known as technologically sophisticated surveillance states."
. I have just being reading some Thomas M. Engelhardt: "Shadow Government: Surveillance, Secret Wars, and a Global Security State in a Single Superpower World."
. The extent of the surveillance state, of the USA combined, with the patriot act, secret military budgets, drone assassinations, cyber-war, outsourced torture, data collection, etc., go way beyond what I had imagined, and I suspect beyond what anyone imagines who hasn't studied the subject. Given what is happening, the role and importance of politics & official form of government would seem to take a back seat. Of course it is important if one needs an abortion or a coue is going on. . But behind the scenes continued wars and reduced human rights, increased separation of the wealthy classes (the wealth divide), reduced privacy, control & manipulation of news, government secrecy, persecution of disidents, horrible priorities, destruction of eco-systems, seem to be guaranteed almost everywhere. Iceland may be an exception due to isolation and free power (ie. not oil or coal but geo-thermal). And Switzerland may only have to deal with economic corruption? . But in general, at this point, it seems that a number of inflection points, have changed the 'landscape' for mankind world wide. Which exactly one chooses, may be a matter of opinion. Possibly: end of WWII, fall of Soviet Union, invention of computer, invention of spy satellites, internet, Stuxnet, Drone warfare, 9/11, establishment worldwide of hundreds of US military bases, CIA doing clandestine government overthrows among a few others... Anyway at this point, even ignoring Covid and global warming, it seems a poor world, in which to be having kids anymore--but it will not stop anymore than the trends mentioned in the previous paragraph, IMO.
https://tomdispatch.com/ The End of Victory Culture: Cold War America and the Disillusioning of a Generation (Basic Books, 1995) The World According to Tomdispatch: America In The New Age of Empire (Verso, 2008) The American Way of War: How Bush's Wars Became Obama's (Haymarket, 2010) The United States of Fear (Haymarket, 2011) Shadow Government: Surveillance, Secret Wars, and a Global Security State in a Single Superpower World. (Haymarket, 2014)[8] A Nation Unmade by War. (Haymarket Books, 2018)
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tom+engelhardt&t=hz&ia=web&iai=r1-2&page=1&sexp=%7B%22cdrexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22artexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prodexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prdsdexp%22%3A%22c%22%2C%22biaexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22msvrtexp%22%3A%22b%22%7D
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SirTripAlot
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The justifications that most proponents of communism make, most notabley pointing to the pitfalls of capitalism including greed, influence, power, etc; yet, dont provide reasons why or how communism would be immune to these things makes it inherently flawed. These things will not just "go away" due the existence of a communist/Marxist state.
A major communist tenet, that the working class should be in power and in turn, establish social ownership of the means of production while at the same time, eliminating private property and wealth is indeed a pipe dream. How is one, let alone a community, able to attain this utopia while being simultaneously stripped of choice and action?
How would an ordinary citizen operate within this economy, with a total lack of price signal? As Friedrich Hayek proposed, a system is needed to disperse knowledge and relevant facts among the populace; prices act to coordinate the separate actions of different people. This in turn, helps the individual establish the parts of his own unique plan in life.
Edited by SirTripAlot (02/15/21 05:31 PM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Good points, very interesting.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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