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Hindsight
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Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body
#27202598 - 02/12/21 08:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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My understanding of the fungal lifecycle is very new, and I have some questions.
Is a single fruit always the result of a single Dikaryotic mycelium that contains only two sets of specific chromosomes from the TWO haploids that bound together to form it? Or can a single fruit be produced by separate Dikaryotic mycelium working "together" but having not undergone plasmogamy?
Does Dikaryotic mycelium continue to undergo plasmogamy (I read somewhere but not sure if it is accurate that Dikaryotic mycelium may continue to merge with additional Dikaryotic mycelium and even additional haploid mycelium) and the result is that different sections of the mycelium now have many different chromosome pairs, and depending on the section of the mycelium that produced the fruit, you'll have different genetics from one fruit to the next from that same mycelium? I assume the answer is no but if what I read in parenthesis is correct, I don't really understand how this would work.
I do understand that you can (and generally do unless you have really isolated) have many different Dikaryotic mycelium all growing "together" but not merging in the same space (tub etc). I'm just trying to understand if each single fruit in a diverse mixed tub is always going to be the product of only ONE mating (plasmogamy) of TWO specific Haploids?
Thank you!
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Cyonic
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Hindsight]
#27203633 - 02/13/21 12:49 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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The fruit body is a single dikaryotic cell line, that is what makes cloning by live tissue culture possible and simple.
As I understand it, on a multi-spore substrate the fruiting dikaryons will use hormonal signaling to gain assistance from any non-fruiting monokaryotic cell lines. In other words the monokaryon will give up and join the dykariotic mycelium, but will not fuse with other hyphae as in plasmogamy.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Cyonic]
#27203647 - 02/13/21 12:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ive seen evidence fruits can be chimeric but i have not seen any evidence that fruits have to be a single dikaryotic line.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: bodhisatta] 2
#27203649 - 02/13/21 12:57 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Clones are often made of multiple strains their performance may come from the interactions of the contained genetics.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.67.100 Check page 5
Quote:
bodhisatta said: there's good strains but strains are the resultant of two spores mating. so you can have good or shit strains of any variety(what a vendor calls a strain) a variety is like GT B+ etc... so really it's up to your agar work to obtain a good strain of any of the available varieties
you might have 100s of strains in a single cake if you injected spores into it. some of the mushrooms are made of more than a few strains themselves.
Quote:
bodhisatta said:

here's some nameko fruits that are displaying some white some red and some mixed. the ones in the middle are strains mixing via a process called anastomosis. the resulting fruits are called chimeric
like these nameko mushrooms with some white some red and some mushrooms spotted as the strains both have some phenotype differences manifesting in the ones with multiple strains
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Cyonic
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: bodhisatta]
#27203718 - 02/13/21 01:48 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Clones are often made of multiple strains their performance may come from the interactions of the contained genetics.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.67.100 Check page 5
Quote:
bodhisatta said: there's good strains but strains are the resultant of two spores mating. so you can have good or shit strains of any variety(what a vendor calls a strain) a variety is like GT B+ etc... so really it's up to your agar work to obtain a good strain of any of the available varieties
you might have 100s of strains in a single cake if you injected spores into it. some of the mushrooms are made of more than a few strains themselves.
Quote:
bodhisatta said:

here's some nameko fruits that are displaying some white some red and some mixed. the ones in the middle are strains mixing via a process called anastomosis. the resulting fruits are called chimeric
like these nameko mushrooms with some white some red and some mushrooms spotted as the strains both have some phenotype differences manifesting in the ones with multiple strains
Wow, cool!
So this means that a clone is not a clone?
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Cyonic]
#27203757 - 02/13/21 02:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, why would it mean that.
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Cyonic
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: bodhisatta]
#27203785 - 02/13/21 02:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Because it would not be identical to the organisms it was taken from.
If a tissue sample contains several different genetic lines it would be instable, subject to change depending on what it was transfered to.
When taken from the fruit body, placed on agar, then a liquid medium and fruited on a final substrate there is bound to be a shifting of the balance on each substrate.
Once it has grown out on agar even, it is bound to not stick together as it spreads around the plate. Some of the dna will lag, some will dominate and you'll have different parts of the plate with different genetic make up.when you take a wedge from a plate like that your bound to lose some of the genetic lines that you originally took.
If you've lost some of the genetic lines that you originally took any where in the process than the next fruit body could not be said to be geneticlly identical to the parent fruit body.
Maybe my definition of clone is too narrow minded?
I'm willing to believe that the definition of clone does not just mean a single organism, but can also include a community, but I'm pretty sure that the clone has to be geneticlly identical to the parent, not just very similar to the parent.
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Cyonic
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Cyonic]
#27203793 - 02/13/21 02:35 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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...and just to clarify, I mean that what we call a clone is not an actual clone.
Obviously an actual clone is a clone.
It sounds to me like a genetic line needs to be isolated from a community of dikaryons in the fruit body placed n order to obtained n a pure culture to clone.
What we are doing when we say we are closing ng is simply transferring a tissue of a community that will not likely be geneticlly or morphologically identical to the community it was taken from.
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Nichrome
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Cyonic] 1
#27203795 - 02/13/21 02:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've made clones that separate like crazy on agar and become several new distinct colonies. Seems like there is quite a bit of material to work with in a single fruit body.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Nichrome]
#27203802 - 02/13/21 02:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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There's no requirements for clones to "stable" to my knowledge. expression might change but it's still a clone. Dna might lag behind but it's still a clone.
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Hindsight
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: bodhisatta]
#27204591 - 02/13/21 09:03 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you all who have replied. Cyonic, your questions and assumptions get at exactly what I was trying to understand as well. Basically, if you take a clone from a good fruit that seems to be growing well in a nice tight cluster, what are the odds that when you grow that clone out again in another tub, that you’ll get a nice consistent flush of fruits similar to what you took the clone from .... or is it just as likely something totally different will happen?
I feel I have a decent handle on how you can use spores across multiple generations to limit genetics toward whatever characteristics you are going for, to make them more “stable,” but what I still don’t understand is how to leverage cloning to ensure you have a consistent mycelium colony to then begin isolation through multiple generations. If a fruit is the product of multiple different dikaryotic mycelium working together, I’d assume the spores produced from that fruit could contain genes from all of them - so you’d have more genetics than just from two sets of chromosomes. It seems like this would make it very difficult to get repeatability with. On the other hand, I read about people who try to isolate on agar, and this does make sense to me, but then you would have to grow a lot of potential duds to find a good one. Am I missing anything?
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Hindsight] 2
#27204599 - 02/13/21 09:10 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you think all of us cultivating have this huge problem with good genetics and cloning. Or that we're all holding some secret cloning protocol.
Truth is most new cultivators have these hypothetical questions and over thought out concerns. In reality there's not a big issue and growing awesome cubes is really eazy. No one laments over how degraded their clone is. They just keep growing it until it falls apart and then big deal we have the skills to do it again and already have something else going anyway.
I was the same way when I started out. Worrying about the best isolates. It's the least of your concerns. Consistency in growing will pay more dividends than diminishing returns on performance you get from overdoing isolation. Besides potency is subjective and objective. We know penis envy is stronger but its hard to tell if batch A or batch B of envy is stronger because trips are all different.
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Smartattack
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#27204675 - 02/13/21 10:03 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ive kind of viewed taking a clone as taking a plate transfer but with a bit of cheat code. It certainly nails "something" down in short order but its not like growing weed by any means. I think if you look at it as a bit of a shortcut rather than the end game people would be happier. And yeah, just watch a clone sample on agar, it can be consistent, or it can end up like a germination plate in a week.
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Hindsight
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: bodhisatta]
#27205730 - 02/14/21 03:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Do you think all of us cultivating have this huge problem with good genetics and cloning. Or that we're all holding some secret cloning protocol.
Truth is most new cultivators have these hypothetical questions and over thought out concerns. In reality there's not a big issue and growing awesome cubes is really eazy. No one laments over how degraded their clone is. They just keep growing it until it falls apart and then big deal we have the skills to do it again and already have something else going anyway.
I was the same way when I started out. Worrying about the best isolates. It's the least of your concerns. Consistency in growing will pay more dividends than diminishing returns on performance you get from overdoing isolation. Besides potency is subjective and objective. We know penis envy is stronger but its hard to tell if batch A or batch B of envy is stronger because trips are all different.
I hear you and appreciate your reply.
For me, in order to really enjoy something, I have to understand everything I'm doing and why things work or don't work - I want to understand all the mechanics behind it. I'm also planning on growing more than just cubes (Pan Cyans, Psilocybe Cyans, Azurescens, and a handful of gourmets and medicinals - some of which are challenging to grow). I have a ton to learn and a lot of failures ahead of me but that's part of the fun. I want to try a lot of experiments so the more I can understand, the better.
At the same time, I do admit that I fall into the trap you mentioned: worrying about something that isn't really an issue, haha, but it comes from a place of me just wanting to ensure I understand as much as I can about what is happening so I can make the best decisions in my experiments.
Edited by Hindsight (02/14/21 03:24 PM)
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Zwinst
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Hindsight] 1
#27346371 - 06/13/21 04:27 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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My experience is, that every single fruiting body is different. And even clones of, in this case a leucistic/albino one, can do this:

It is actually a picture of mushrooms grown from white spores, but i have seen the exact same behavior in clones of earlier generations.
edit: It is possible however, that in this case it is just down to the instability of the colour mutation. Maybe sometimes it "reverts back" to being normal. I don´t know.
Edited by Zwinst (06/13/21 04:41 AM)
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the_chosen_one
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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: Zwinst]
#27355414 - 06/19/21 04:12 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zwinst said: My experience is, that every single fruiting body is different. And even clones of, in this case a leucistic/albino one, can do this:

It is actually a picture of mushrooms grown from white spores, but i have seen the exact same behavior in clones of earlier generations.
edit: It is possible however, that in this case it is just down to the instability of the colour mutation. Maybe sometimes it "reverts back" to being normal. I don´t know. 
Funny, Bod referred to Chimeras. I just posted in regards to your thread. Albinism is a recessive gene so prepare to stay confused
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Reynard


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Re: Question about genetic diversity in fruiting body [Re: the_chosen_one] 1
#27384868 - 07/12/21 06:37 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Maybe it's something similar to transposon-mediated variegation in plants where a virus-like element is producing that variation, Zwinst.
I remember coming across what OP read in my studies years ago (I remember it was an in-situ study of some fungus) and had a mycology professor confirm that yes, dikaryotic mycelia of the same species has been observed to fuse and furthermore that the genetic expression of the different sets of nuclei is highly adaptable. Basically the cell pays for one nucleus while having access to however many are part of the collective lol
Super cool stuff.
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