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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Professor X]
#27189329 - 02/06/21 08:50 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Professor X said: Bacterial spawn is usually a grain prep issue if you're using agar. Jars too wet.
Bacterial spawn is going to be operator error. Either your inoculation source was dirty, your technique was bad, or your sterilization cycle was incomplete, or some combination of those things.
Having wet grains isn't what does it on its own. LC works just fine and its a jar full of nutrient water. Properly sterilized wet grains will be just that, sterile wet grains. This environment, just like liquid culture, will reveal any mistakes in preparation. If there is any trace of bacteria whatsoever it will flourish in a wet environment where it is now highly mobile and can reproduce easily.
I don't recall which shroomery member it was atm but I believe it was Faht that was prepping some over cooked, wet, starchy grain that the mycelium absolutely loved. This is a good example of great technique overcoming what others would have otherwise considered likely prone to contamination. Attention to detail is what's going to either make or break your spawn.
This where the discerning eye part comes in, bacteria creates a slimy wet biofilm, this is one of the reasons, along with what was stated above, why wet is best avoided as a rule of thumb. Avoiding wet grains is an ounce of prevention, unless you're a boss.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Inthepit]
#27189359 - 02/06/21 09:15 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inthepit said: Thanks for all your hard work p9! Maybe I can find an example you don't have from my VAST collection!
I did actually, thanks. I added your RW top fruit to the OP, thanks
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Tight Lunchbox
Drunk cat


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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27189389 - 02/06/21 09:43 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Faht used spelt that a vendor mistakenly sent him. His thread is a testament to how well clean mycelium can do on clean, starchy grains.
Nice thread, p9.
-------------------- "it's all a joke between mom contractions and coffin fittings" The most useful tool for noobs
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Tight Lunchbox]
#27189392 - 02/06/21 09:44 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Awesome, thanks man. That's exactly what I was talking about.
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clockworkshroom
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Tight Lunchbox]
#27189395 - 02/06/21 09:47 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok, so my grain was sterilised in a presto 23 for 2 hours and the myc was 4th transfer on agar with zero sign of contams but was all Tomentose. So it's likely operator error when I was inoculating in the SAB, I iso the fuck out it, work on a drying rack and flame my scalpel between jars. I might film my SAB Tek next time I inoculate grains for feedback. This thread is going to be so useful. I have about 18 more jars for feedback on later lol. I fear the worst for them.
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Professor X
School for the Gifted



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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Inthepit]
#27189503 - 02/06/21 10:58 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inthepit said: Thanks for all your hard work p9! Maybe I can find an example you don't have from my VAST collection!  But first I have to study your most excellent write up eh! Thanks again! 
1/5 1/8 1/10  Four shoeboxes all tryc'd out... not sure what this was... But this one is hairy! A wedge stuck to the top... This one on the right was too dry, got re-hydrated & PC'd again  This jar was truly gross, so it stayed in the jar... RW Maybe you'll find one of these pics useful...
Yeah damn, I definitely don't recommend trying to save anything in those conditions and never ever recommend running grain twice. My experience with double runs is 100% failure. Everytime I see someone ask about it I wonder if they are going to throw it away jar and all when it goes bad.
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clockworkshroom
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Professor X]
#27189671 - 02/06/21 12:36 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok, I'm braced and ready for the pain. First 2 photos were agar to grain and shook a couple of days ago at around 30-40%.
The other 2 rows were inoculated using a really half assed attempt at blenderless Tek with agar that was too hard and didn't break up well but may actually be healthier?
Same whole oats as the jars already shared in this thread that are bad. All prepped using bods Tek, boiled for like 40 mins and then dried for a few hours in strainers. They may be too moist.

I've bought 25kg really clean, pure, white millet and will try the no rinse Tek where you just add them and water to a jar and pc.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: clockworkshroom]
#27189962 - 02/06/21 03:50 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Your grains look over cooked and wet, what's with the bits of what looks like straw?
How do your jars look to you?
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27189967 - 02/06/21 03:53 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Im with Mike up there. I think this is a very helpful post. I want to dig through my archives and see if I have pictures to add. I am sure I do somewhere.
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DigDug
Cultivator


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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Sockadin]
#27189980 - 02/06/21 04:00 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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This write-up is good stuff, and I can attest to all of the points made. Solid work.
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Professor X
School for the Gifted



Registered: 04/18/19
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27189984 - 02/06/21 04:02 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said:
Quote:
Professor X said: Bacterial spawn is usually a grain prep issue if you're using agar. Jars too wet.
Bacterial spawn is going to be operator error. Either your inoculation source was dirty, your technique was bad, or your sterilization cycle was incomplete, or some combination of those things.
Having wet grains isn't what does it on its own. LC works just fine and its a jar full of nutrient water. Properly sterilized wet grains will be just that, sterile wet grains. This environment, just like liquid culture, will reveal any mistakes in preparation. If there is any trace of bacteria whatsoever it will flourish in a wet environment where it is now highly mobile and can reproduce easily.
I don't recall which shroomery member it was atm but I believe it was Faht that was prepping some over cooked, wet, starchy grain that the mycelium absolutely loved. This is a good example of great technique overcoming what others would have otherwise considered likely prone to contamination. Attention to detail is what's going to either make or break your spawn.
This where the discerning eye part comes in, bacteria creates a slimy wet biofilm, this is one of the reasons, along with what was stated above, why wet is best avoided as a rule of thumb. Avoiding wet grains is an ounce of prevention, unless you're a boss.
My apprentice recently did some jars that had pooling at the bottom. Full 2 hour cycle on pint jars. It ended up bacterial then molded from the bottom up with no shake. Agar was dropped on top. Only thing I have to attribute it to was the excess water. It affects the PC cycle.
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clockworkshroom
Stranger


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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27190002 - 02/06/21 04:09 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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My whole oats came with loads of straw and crap in them, I did ask about it a few others said they use similar and it's ok. I ordered racehorse standard. I don't think it's ideal though.
Definitely agree they are over cooked, I know that many burst isn't right, I followed bods Tek to a t so guess mine just needed less of a boil. They may be a little wet but they appear wetter in photos than they really are, they aren't actually glistening. In bods Tek he just strains for up to an hour, I did that and mixed them up a few times during that time and then paper towel tested them for dampness and they left little trace.
Before I read this thread I would have said they were non bacterial but poorly prepped now I think they may be both but I'm not actually certain on the bacteria bit.
When it comes to spawning jars like this, I know it's not best practice, I know it will impact the grow but if a 6qt tub of this spawn could produce even 2 Oz dry it's better than nothing when I don't have any other agar at a stage that I'll need the tubs for a month or so. I get the importance of not accepting sub standard practice but what is the real risk of spawning? Cause if it's just wasted time and coir then that's ok with me mid lockdown, I'd just stick them in unmodified tubs and not do anything anyway. Even if I was to get a decent yield then I still wouldn't get lazy with trying to improve.
The only reason I wouldn't spawn the jars is if I was told there is zero chance they'll fruit anything edible or they will likely cause contams that could infect my workspace.
I know your standards are much different and I'll get there.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Professor X]
#27190007 - 02/06/21 04:14 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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If that molded from the bottom up without shaking then I'd wager that you didn't sterilize properly. You shouldn't have mold, bacteria, or any other thing in your jars after sterilization.
I bet you're not venting properly and therefore not reaching sterilization temps. If you had of reached 15psi for 2 hours there wouldn't be bacteria in the jars. Bacteria led to mold, check your lids as well. Run a cycle and leave jars to see if they contaminate, this is pretty much what you've done already though.
@clockworshrooms: Those jars are bacterial, the straw doesn't matter I was just curious. Cut back on that boil time, bro, and try leaving them overnight to dry so that you don't load them sopping wet.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (02/07/21 03:16 PM)
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clockworkshroom
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27190050 - 02/06/21 04:28 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Cool will do. All 20+ jars I've inoculated so far have been from 4th or 5th gen transfers of ms that I haven't grown so I have little to no expectations.
I've cloned a fruit from some brf cakes I ran at the same time and it's looking good on agar so once that is ready is when the semi real work begins and I'll have an idea of what to expect. I'll take all the kind advice and do better prepping.
I misunderstood Bods Tek and thought 30-60 mins drying is optimal, I was worried drying them more may be a bad thing. I've since read loads of teks where people dry them for far longer and leave overnight etc. not blaming him obviously, I just didn't have the experience, knowledge or common sense needed to think for myself lol.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: clockworkshroom]
#27190072 - 02/06/21 04:45 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Trial and error is the best teacher. No matter what any of us says it won't click until you experience it yourself and make adjustments based upon your situation.
Make sure to vent for at least 10 mins, don't start that ten mins until steam stops sputtering and is actually hissing. Then start your timer. I always vent for 15 mins just to be sure, but that's just what I do.
If you don't purge correctly you're going to get bacteria and possibly mold as stated above. You'll have issue if your filters are fucked as well so make sure to double check these things for peice of mind. If those things are in order then your next step is grain prep, make sure not to undertook your grains, undercooked grains will have a kernel that's improperly hydrated. Improper hydration means incomplete energy transfer to the kernel and incomplete sterilization. Check hydration by cutting open your grain to see if there's a white, starchy core. You want that core to have turned clear. This does not apply to WBS, millet, or any other seed, just to large cereal grains like oats, wheat, rye.
If you've overcooked your grain it's preferable to undercooked because it will sterilize, just make sure to give it time to dry out on the exterior before loading.
The last thing to troubleshoot is your vessel, and lids. Make sure all of those bases are covered.
Once that's all covered all that's left is your sterile technique and the cleanliness of your culture.
Attention to detail is necessary with every step. Make sure all of the above is in order and your grain will be gtg.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (02/06/21 04:59 PM)
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clockworkshroom
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27190095 - 02/06/21 05:17 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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I always vent for 10 minutes minimum and check everything before starting a cycle. The pc is actually the one thing I'm familiar with and confident about when it comes to growing mushrooms 
I think my SAB work is decent but obviously still not 100% natural so little things like time lids are off etc. will keep improving.
As I said I've bought millet and it looks super clean so will try the no rinse Tek but part of me thinks even if it is successful I'm better off sticking with cereal grains for learning.
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gdphanboomers
Feel Like a Stranger



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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: clockworkshroom]
#27190190 - 02/06/21 06:19 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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p9 this thread is super helpful! Running my first batch of grain and have been looking around at posts about myc growth on grain and this has given me some useful info on which jars I've had which have what looks like good growth and a few that aren't so hot. Thanks again!
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: gdphanboomers]
#27190201 - 02/06/21 06:25 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Glad its helped
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nogoodnamesleft
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27190210 - 02/06/21 06:30 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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I just threw out 16 bags because of this thread
The best lesson is don’t waste the rest of your grow on bad spawn just make good spawn from the start
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Clean spawn checklist for the new grower. [Re: nogoodnamesleft]
#27190232 - 02/06/21 06:45 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well hopefully that was warranted, if it was that's an awful lot of down stream resources that you've just saved. Glad to be of service.
Settle for nothing short of clean spawn
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