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bertblack
Feeling the cosmic energy



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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: Mr. Alien]
#27167572 - 01/24/21 04:40 PM (3 years, 23 days ago) |
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That'll work 100%, I've done that in 4oz deli cups with pans. Make sure the agar wedge isn't too small though. Mycelium slurries work well too for stuff like this, shoot some sterilised water from syringe into colonised agar plate, mix up gently with the needle and pull it back in, too easy
-------------------- When in doubt - Bod's Repository
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kidcharlemagne
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: bertblack]
#27172830 - 01/27/21 12:09 PM (3 years, 20 days ago) |
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Can someone help out a noob to agar? I've read about 20 pages but don't understand why the hg plates are put in a separate container and why the height at which they are stacked dictates the amount of condensation. Why would a higher plate get more condensation and has anyone improved on this tek? Thanks!
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sonoramo
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: kidcharlemagne]
#27173058 - 01/27/21 02:26 PM (3 years, 20 days ago) |
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Cooling is a dynamic process. As temperature and pressure change, water condenses on the agar surface. Athough the agar is very hygroscopic, each increment of water condensing onto the surface water has to migrate inward to make room for additional water. So, if the condensation rate is faster than the agar can reabsorb it, the water piles up on the surface.
This is one of many reasons not to take the weight off the PC or try to rapidly cool the PC. I haven't tried this, but I would not be surprised if putting a blanket over the PC as it cools to slow down cooling might help prevent condensation.
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karri0n
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: kidcharlemagne]
#27173295 - 01/27/21 05:20 PM (3 years, 20 days ago) |
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The plate on top of the stack cools faster than those in the middle.
The slower a plate cools, the less condensation it will get. The outside containers also help with this.
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Panaeolus Bisporus
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Mr. Alien
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: kidcharlemagne]
#27173563 - 01/27/21 08:33 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
kidcharlemagne said: Can someone help out a noob to agar? I've read about 20 pages but don't understand why the hg plates are put in a separate container and why the height at which they are stacked dictates the amount of condensation. Why would a higher plate get more condensation and has anyone improved on this tek? Thanks!
You don't need an outer container, using an outer container is just to achieve perfectionism, you can just upload the PC with a bunch of HG plates, and they will all might come out with condensation, but worry not, you just need to wait 1 week or so until all the plates de-condensate. The only two issues of having to wait for de-condensation are the "ghosts droplets" (droplets that dried and leaved their trail) that might obstruct a little your visibility and the time it takes to de-condensate. Using a tall outer container to stack up as much HG as possible will help a lot eliminating the condensation, or to be more precise, to eliminate the causes that causes (forgive the redundancy) the condensation. BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE or CAN'T FIND a tall container, don't worry, you can use mason jars to use them as outer containers, you can stack up inside a mason jar up to 6 HG's, and the evidence suggest that the mason jar method could yield 2-3 HG plates without condensation or very little, in comparison, the 10 stack outer container yields 8-9 HG plates without condensation. So as you can see this tek is very forgiving, you can even choose to not use any container at all.
Edited by Mr. Alien (01/27/21 08:58 PM)
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tombosley8
Full on... Bossley Baggins



Registered: 10/14/13
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: Mr. Alien]
#27173585 - 01/27/21 08:44 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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when I pc them using no containers in stacks of 7 I usually get about 2/3 that are ready right away, maybe a drop on the agar surface which evaporates as the myc grows, and the other 1/3 are the plates from the top 2-3 levels that need a couple weeks to decondensate. I use 3 qt jars on their sides on the bottom of the pc to elevate the trivet and keep the plates up away from the water.
I like the containers for storing them after pc until I need them or while they decondensate, just leave the lid slightly cracked so the water has a place to evaporate to.
And I like qt jars or even half gallon jars for storing them after inoculation. It keeps them mostly dust free and allows light in very well.
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Edited by tombosley8 (01/27/21 08:45 PM)
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Mr. Alien
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: tombosley8]
#27173905 - 01/28/21 12:37 AM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
tombosley8 said: when I pc them using no containers in stacks of 7 I usually get about 2/3 that are ready right away, maybe a drop on the agar surface which evaporates as the myc grows, and the other 1/3 are the plates from the top 2-3 levels that need a couple weeks to decondensate. I use 3 qt jars on their sides on the bottom of the pc to elevate the trivet and keep the plates up away from the water.
I like the containers for storing them after pc until I need them or while they decondensate, just leave the lid slightly cracked so the water has a place to evaporate to.
And I like qt jars or even half gallon jars for storing them after inoculation. It keeps them mostly dust free and allows light in very well.
wow, i will try without containers to see if i get the same results.
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kidcharlemagne
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: Mr. Alien]
#27174043 - 01/28/21 05:33 AM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Thanks,. But what does the stacking height have to do with the amount of condensation, ie, why do plates higher in the PC tend to get more condensation? Thanks!
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Yesum
Furry as Fuc



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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: kidcharlemagne]
#27174054 - 01/28/21 05:50 AM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Because they cool quicker
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Hindsight
Mad Scientist


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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: Yesum]
#27179704 - 01/31/21 05:10 PM (3 years, 16 days ago) |
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I've been trying different things to avoid condensation. I even tried filling the top HG in the stack with wet sand, hoping it would provide some thermal mass.
I'm doing mine stacked 5 high in quart mason jars (I don't like how 6 deforms the top one), using metal lids with the top on backwards so it doesn't seal air-tight, and the jars upside down. Lids on the HGs are just cracked barely open from full tight while in the PC. I PC 1 hour, let cool until there is no pressure, wait another hour and pull the jars out. Still getting a fair amount of condensation. I tried removing the HGs from the jar after the 1 hour cool down in the PC, then removing them from the jar and stacking them 10 high inside of a 3" PVC pipe that had been pre-heated to 170 in an oven and had a cap on top then wrapped that pipe in a thick blanket and left overnight. Still have condensation in most of the HGs.
I noticed somewhere buried in this thread you mentioned not to leave the HGs (in jars or tins) in the PC overnight to cool because it will lead to pooling. Do you know why that is? Seems like leaving them in the PC overnight would allow the slowest and most steady cool-down period. Maybe it's due to the humid conditions in the PC?
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tombosley8
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: Hindsight] 1
#27179722 - 01/31/21 05:21 PM (3 years, 16 days ago) |
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I've been leaving mine to cool overnight. I do stacks of 7 using no mason jars and am getting 2/3 with little to no condensation and maybe a small drop of pooling which evaporates while the myc colonizes it... The other 1/3 are the top plates and have large droplets of condensation on the lid but if I leave them for a couple weeks or so that will dry up.
I've been just dumping and refilling those when I need agar right away because the more plates I cook at once the more I'll have with no condensation.
I biggest problem is the amount of water that is on the outside of the containers after taking them out of the pc.
I leave them in front of my hood to dry before putting them in containers. sometimes takes a couple hours or so for them to dry. If they go into the containers too wet and that water gets trapped or doesn't evaporate very fast then it will grow contams and possibly go through the seal on the gh plates and contam the agar. These things or any sterile media with a filter or not so perfect seal should not be left in a wet humid environment.
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kidcharlemagne
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: Yesum]
#27180470 - 02/01/21 08:11 AM (3 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Yesum said: Because they cool quicker
A couple questions if you will.
1.How can the short time differential between cooling at the top vs the bottom make it so people have to wait days for the condensed ones to eventually clear?
2. Also, once the heat is off, wouldn't the hottest air remain at the top, making the top ones cool slower?
Thanks
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sonoramo
Contaminant



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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: kidcharlemagne]
#27181448 - 02/01/21 05:33 PM (3 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
kidcharlemagne said:
Quote:
Yesum said: Because they cool quicker
. . . 1.How can the short time differential between cooling at the top vs the bottom make it so people have to wait days for the condensed ones to eventually clear?
The bottom is likely to cool down more slowly. It has more thermal mass from the water in the bottom of the PC plus whatever heat is left from the burner below it.
But the real answer is: 
Quote:
2. Also, once the heat is off, wouldn't the hottest air remain at the top, making the top ones cool slower?
It's possible that air at the top is a little warmer, but there are multiple reasons that won't make the top plates stay warmer:
- There's probably a lot of convection inside the PC, as the walls and top cool and as water recondenses into the bottom.
- Water vapor is less efficient at cooling than air is, and when you take it off the heat, the PC is still full of water vapor.
- Outside air being drawn in through the pressure hole and the lock mechanism are sure to complicate gas flow inside while the PC is cooling. As the inside cools, water vapor continually condenses and pulls in more air from outside.
- The top plates "see" the top of the PC as they cool, the other plates "see" the plates above them. So the farther down you go, the less the plates get cooled by radiative coupling to the top.
- The water at the bottom has a lot of thermal mass, and it is likely to keep the lower plates from cooling rapidly.
- It's likely that water migrates more readily through warm agar gel than in cool agar gel, and that could account for more condensate being absorbed in the lower plates and more condensate left to puddle on the agar surface of the upper plates. But who knows how much?
These are all guesses on my part. If I had time to spare, I'd simulate the cool-down with software and maybe get a more definitive answer than just , but that's too much work.
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cronicr



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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: sonoramo]
#27181504 - 02/01/21 06:07 PM (3 years, 15 days ago) |
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U guys know u can just sterilize these things and pour right?( just checkin)
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Threads2theSoul
Inquirer


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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: cronicr]
#27181673 - 02/01/21 08:09 PM (3 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: U guys know u can just sterilize these things and pour right?( just checkin)
  
Newb here I was just thinking I'd try that.
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sonoramo
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: cronicr]
#27182009 - 02/01/21 11:18 PM (3 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: U guys know u can just sterilize these things and pour right?( just checkin)
Sterilize and pour seems like more work! It means I have to separately sterilize the dishes and the agar and still find a "safe" way to open both for the pour without contaminating.
I don't worry so much about condensation. If I have any, I flick the condensed water into a sink. It just flies out from between the dish and the cover!
One more thing: I started using LC last year. Now I PC the broth and the agar plates at the same time. LC jars are downstairs in a jar rack, with their feet in the water. The agar plates are on a trivet that goes atop the jars.
Edited by sonoramo (02/01/21 11:21 PM)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher



Registered: 04/24/20
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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: sonoramo]
#27182847 - 02/02/21 12:44 PM (3 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
sonoramo said: Sterilize and pour seems like more work! It means I have to separately sterilize the dishes and the agar and still find a "safe" way to open both for the pour without contaminating.
I don't worry so much about condensation. If I have any, I flick the condensed water into a sink. It just flies out from between the dish and the cover!
Exactly my thoughts! Mind you, if somebody really took issue with the condensation then the pour method works all the same with less effort (and money) than using disposable petri dishes that you have to wrap in parfilm/cling wrap. I can't see an upside to using disposable/glass petris now that the HG plates are an option, asides from not having to sterilize them, but you sterilize the agar anyways so it doesn't take any extra work to throw them in with the cycle.
I just use whatever ones have no condensation, and if I need a few extra I'll flick the water out of one or two. The rest sit in the closet for a week and the moisture is gone.
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cronicr



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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: Rhizomorph]
#27183010 - 02/02/21 02:21 PM (3 years, 14 days ago) |
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when I pour in pp5 containers I or them in a filter patch bag, pc with my agar lol. I don't know how that's more work considering you're already mixing pouring and pcing and fighting condensation I can see these being a bit more of pita being twist tops but the snap ins I use are stackable so I just use a stack of cups and another of lids. if I am doing no pour the condensation lasts like a week so I don't worry about it either
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karri0n
Mind Traveller



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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: Rhizomorph]
#27183254 - 02/02/21 05:03 PM (3 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
I can't see an upside to using disposable/glass petris now that the HG plates are an option, asides from not having to sterilize them, but you sterilize the agar anyways so it doesn't take any extra work to throw them in with the cycle.
To be really fair, the clarity, size, and availability of three section dishes are absolutely advantages to petris over HG.
If I could get screw top petris that didn't need a wrap, I would. Needing Parafilm/plastic wrap is the real clincher for me.
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Panaeolus Bisporus
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Hindsight
Mad Scientist


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Re: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers. [Re: karri0n] 1
#27184423 - 02/03/21 12:01 PM (3 years, 13 days ago) |
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It looks like I have solved my quest for 100% condensation free HG plates.
Stacking high in the PC, stacking high outside the PC, wrapping with blankets, etc, didn't give me the same partial success that some others had, and I really wanted all my plates immediately clear.
What I do is stack my plates 5 high in quart mason jars with the lids on upside down to prevent vacuum seal, but also to keep the steam off the plates, then PC them one hour.
The moment the pressure naturally releases from the PC, I remove the jars and remove the plates. I set a foam pad or towel down on the counter, and set the plates flat on top in a 3x4 pattern, then set a metal 13x9 brownie pan on top, fill it with boiling water, cover it with a lid or foil, then cover with a blanket and let sit overnight (or as long as it takes for the water in the brownie pan to reach room temperature - if you remove it before then, some condensation will return).
The HGs will have condensation inside the lids when removed from the PC, but the brownie pans filled with boiling water will vaporize that condensation and it will then be re-absorbed by the still hot and liquid agar. This trick won't work if the agar has already solidified (well, it will but the condensation will come right back).
HGs out of the PC:

Brownie pans on top with boiling water:

Cover with blanket or sleeping bag:

The result:

Edited by Hindsight (02/18/21 05:19 PM)
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