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OfflineFrog
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Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs)
    #2718133 - 05/23/04 01:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I was watching the movie ?Signs? again last night, and came upon this scene:

Mel Gibson and his brother have just finished seeing the news, which shows 14 ships from space invading the air space above Mexico City, and Mel Gibson says:

?People break down into two groups. When they experience something lucky, group #1 sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign. Imminence, that someone is up there looking out for them.

Group #2 sees it as just pure luck. A happy turn of chance. Oh, sure, the people in group #2 are looking at those lights in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation is 50/50. Could be bad. Could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they?re on their own and that feels them with fear. There are those people.

But there?s a whole lot of people in Group #1, and they see those 14 lights, they?re looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever is going to happen, there?ll be someone there to help them, and that feels them with hope.

And what you have to ask yourself is which kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs and miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky? Or, look at the question this way?Is it possible that there are no coincidences??


I also see these two types of people in real life. So if you are in Group #2, do you think you are limiting yourself? See, I am in group #1. I think that, no matter what happens, someone is going to help me because I believe someone ?up there? is looking out for me. There may be no one looking out for me, but because of my ?alleged? na?ve belief in God and the Universe, I may be looking for help and getting it. Or, someone is in fact looking out for me and putting people there to help me.

If you don?t believe in God or the Universe, or anything, if you think you are on your own, do you not consequently and even unintentionally limit your options?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2718183 - 05/23/04 02:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

no, not at all. What kind of a question is that?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2718197 - 05/23/04 02:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"If you don?t believe in God or the Universe, or anything, if you think you are on your own, do you not consequently and even unintentionally limit your options"

YES, totally.... You dont ' go to heaven' by believing in god, nor do you win any prize except your own peace of mind, and noticed improvement in life.... Just believe!!... TRULY believe all you skeptics and you will find the possative more then the negative..



great point Frog!


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2718272 - 05/23/04 02:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Would you consider yourself limited to certain beliefs? Wouldnt believing in one thing, and being skeptical of another limit you anyway? Either way, you are limiting yourself to a set of circumstances.

I wouldnt put myself in either of those groups. Its rather limiting to my understanding of things :wink:.


--------------------
What?


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2718331 - 05/23/04 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Faith is really a powerful tool, it is like a support for oneself to go through difficult times.

Unfortunately, I am a skeptic and trying to have faith because it is useful and practical actually make me have even less faith. I may analyze a situation ratinally and decide that faith in a higher power would have been useful to go through it. But thinking about it this way makes it impossible to belive really..


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2719306 - 05/23/04 07:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
Would you consider yourself limited to certain beliefs? Wouldnt believing in one thing, and being skeptical of another limit you anyway? Either way, you are limiting yourself to a set of circumstances.

I wouldnt put myself in either of those groups. Its rather limiting to my understanding of things :wink:.




Assuming I don't limit myself to just one set of beliefs, then of course I don't limit myself.  My main limitation, if it can be considered a limitation, is that I limit myself to belief in God.  That means by choice I am excluding a belief in Bhudda and other supreme beings that others may believe in.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that I automatically eschew the beliefs held by other religions, or that come with believing in other Gods.  For instance, I believe in karma, but I've said before that I don't think karma is inconsistent with things that are taught in the bible, or with a belief in God or Jesus.

I suppose I am mainly talking to people who don't believe in anything.  Those who shun any of the hocus-pocus ( :grin: ) that believers believe in, like signs, and the universe, and God or gods, or whatever. 

Example:  If I believe that God or the Universe puts people here to help me, I will go out and seek that help consciously, because I know it's there based on past experience.  People who don't believe in such nonsense such as signs and God and the Universe helping them, won't go out and actively seek such help, because in their minds, it doesn't exist. 

So let's assume that such help, signs, whatever, doesn't exist.  Even if it doesn't exist, as long as I think it exists, I will act on the existence of such things and go seek help or talk to people, thinking they are there to help me, while people who don't believe in such things limit themselves to, well, themselves.  And of course, they worry more than people who do believe.

That's another example:  Because I think God helps me, I don't worry about stuff, because I have found that everything works out.  And even if something seems dire, my belief in God puts me at ease because I know there's a reason for everything.  People who don't believe in anything seem to worry more and have more anxieties.

Maintaining worry and anxiety is time-consuming and interferes with one's ability to effectively look for a solution.  By not worrying, I free my mind up to find a solution much more quickly.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (05/23/04 07:22 PM)


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2719426 - 05/23/04 07:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

god shmod jesus beeezus.

Cant we get over all of that nonsense and make up some new shit? preferbably including robots and sexy aliens?


--------------------
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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Positronius]
    #2719889 - 05/23/04 09:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

* positronius gets struck by a bolt from jesus :gd_icon: *


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2720491 - 05/23/04 10:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
If you don?t believe in God or the Universe, or anything, if you think you are on your own, do you not consequently and even unintentionally limit your options?




What have I told you about believing what Mel Gibson says?
:wink:

Without getting into semantics and definitions and whatnot.... I don't think it's limiting at all to not have a belief in something as ethereal as "God".  Note that a lack of a belief in the existence of something is NOT equivalent with a belief that something does not exist.  In the case of the latter, I'd say that any limitations imposed upon oneself by one's disbelief could only be measured by the hand of experience.  If it works... it works.  If it doesn't work... it's time for revision (or denial :wink:).  Of course, the same goes for those who do believe in God.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2720746 - 05/23/04 11:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Frog, I get the sense that you're reaching out. I think what you need to be told right now is: no. Not having faith does not limit me. I don't cower because I'm afraid a higher authority doesn't exist, and you don't have to either. You can pursue life wholeheartedly without the use of a crutch.

In the last 5 months I've lived in 4 cities, covered over 7000 kilmoeters, and have been living out of a (large) backpack in pursuit of exactly what I want to do. I walk around at night without fear, I sleep under the stars, under bushes, in the woods, I've fought wild animals and found food in the cracks of modern society. I don't trust higher authorities, I trust myself, the world our species was shaped by, and I have faith in the insignifigance of my own existence. That's all you need. You don't need God and Karma. That's all bullshit.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2720755 - 05/23/04 11:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

to me, what I see here is just labels. why have this much emphasis on grouping people from all walks of life into these two categories? Do you think that each person has the equal opportunity to be a "believer" and to be a "non believer?" If you are a believer, then you should have some kind of concept that each person walks their own path. The "nonbelievers" really aren't limiting themselves because they are doing what they need to do and have a good idea of what feels "correct" to them. Where's the limitation?

Maybe our focus should be different. how about we focus on the believers and why they "belive."

Four years ago I used to think that god never existed. At that time I "knew" I was correct, I had rationalized it out over and over. But then I realized how pompous I was to make such a bold claim. It never really struck me before that after all my rationaization, I was still not 100% sure, so who was I to say what is what? what category does that fit into? Isn't it ok to just not know, and instead focus on what is here and look at our similarities, instead of differences. Sure my opinion will change, and I keep an open mind to new ideas that come up. where is the self limitation?

There are times when I am a believer, and then sometimes I'm not. It's just I haven't made up my mind quite yet, is this limitating? no...it's just I feel that I don't need to make bold claims just yet about something I know very little of.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2721101 - 05/24/04 01:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

To Sclorch, Mixomatosis and kaiowas:  I'm going to lump you all together here in my reply, since you all responded in kind.

This is what I needed to know.  It's not a challenge, or my way of saying that people who don't believe in anything are "wrong".  I was curious if it could be true, what his lines were in the movie. 

I personally am wrong for lumping all nonbelievers into one category.  I can see that now.  You have to admit, however, that there are a lot of people who have no beliefs (which yes, are a form of belief) who seem to have a lot of worries. 

But, I have to admit that there are a lot of believers who have a lot of worries, too.  Maybe a belief in the Universe or God or whatever is not necessary to have peace of mind. 

So maybe what it comes down to is not whether you are a believer or not.  Maybe what it comes down to is whether you have learned to get over your worries and anxieties and where you place importance and from who you seek help when you need help. 

Thanks for setting me straight.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2722948 - 05/24/04 03:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Also, don't look too hard for spiritual insights in the movie "Signs" please. That movie was like a bad episode of the X-files.


Swing away! At the bad CGI green alien thing. Swing away!


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Viveka]
    #2724113 - 05/24/04 07:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Positronius

YOU ARE THE MAN. sign me up, i want those sex robots with extra alien. preferably from inside a computer linked up to every neuron in solar system.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2724753 - 05/24/04 10:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A belief is just an opinion, one that, in a persons own mind, becomes concrete fact. From this stance it is easy to see that any belief is a limiting one. Now I'm not going to generalize entire groups into one category or another, even though I do have some opinions on it subject, but I will give some advice to people considering anything other than their own limits to the human experience: Why wait for your ship to come in when you can swim out and board it?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2725196 - 05/25/04 12:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, so now I'm wondering. Let's assume that there are other non-believers out there like Sclorch, Mixomatosis and kaiowas, who aren't believers, but who aren't swimming in anxiety and fear and hopelessness, and that there are other believers like me and others on this forum, who aren't swimming in the same.

What's the difference between us and those who are swimming? And you have to admit, regardless of what causes one to find peace in life regardless of the pitfalls, it's better than drowning.

And what do you mean, ShroomHermit, by "Why wait for your ship to come in when you can swim out and board it?"?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2726275 - 05/25/04 04:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'd say the difference is that I'm less affected by any negative pressure in my life. I'm able to see it for what it is. This means that I can usually keep calm and enjoy life without freaking out and stressing (as much - some things are difficult to overcome). I also rarely exhibit the knee-jerk reaction of my anxiety-ridden peers.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineRenegade8
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2727268 - 05/25/04 12:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'd say it has to do with letting go. You were able to do this by trusting God to take care of you and letting things be in His hands.

I can't speak for all the non-believers, but for me it was about seeing the world for what it is, not what it's "supposed" to be - nothing is "good" or "bad", it just is. From what I've seen, most fear & anxiety comes from trying to reconcile reality with one's judgments & expectations of how things "should" be.


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Renegade8]
    #2729909 - 05/25/04 11:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Out of curiousity, Sclorch and Renegade, what caused you to be able to let go of the stress of living that most people seem to experience?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2730485 - 05/26/04 01:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

there isn't much stress to living, only when we try to impose our will on external reality does stress really occur. :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


Edited by kaiowas (05/26/04 01:25 AM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2730712 - 05/26/04 02:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I agree. However, there are many people who act as if there is stress to living. I'm now trying to figure out the difference as to why some of us have stress, and some of us don't.

Obviously, after several responses, I have learned that it doesn't have to do with being a believer that one's stress in life is reduced. So I'm grying to figure this out. It's a ... what's it called??? Like a wild card or something.

I have been thinking that all people are stressed or anxious, unless they have a belief in something. Now I have learned that people who don't beleive in anything are also not stressed or anxious, based on things they have experienced in life. Why?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2730862 - 05/26/04 03:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"why some of us have stress, and some of us don't."
We all have stress, just some more then others. As far as WHY? it is all a personal thing, because even though stress is exerted by things 'outward' such as the enviroment and people around us, we have the ability to control our own 'inner' level of stress and become hardened to outward influence of negativity... Some find, with their 'beliefs', it is easy to cope with outward stress... and yet others because of their innard stress can not cope with the outer reality, becomes a bad cycle if you let it... I pretty much vary on that scale and my stress level changes from one minute to the next.

If believeng in something lessens my inner or outer stress, why not do it?


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OfflineRenegade8
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2731634 - 05/26/04 11:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think Kaiowas gave you the answer you're looking for with his last post: "..only when we try to impose our will on external reality does stress really occur." It doesn't matter if one believes in a higher power or not, it's whether they try to control reality or just experience it for what it is.

Gotta go into a meeting now, but I'll try later to answer your question about how it happened for me.


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Renegade8]
    #2732599 - 05/26/04 04:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Good points, 2Experimental and Renegade.  It's not our beliefs in God or whatever that reduced the stress and anxiety.  It's our reaction to it.  We can't impose our will on external reality.  We have to just accept it.  Good point that kaiowas made, too.

So, it all really has nothing to do with God.  It all has to do with our outlook on life.  This seems so "duh" but I hadn't thought about it this way. 

Renegade, what is up with that avatar?  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineRenegade8
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2732876 - 05/26/04 05:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Renegade, what is up with that avatar?  :grin:




Was wondering when you were gonna ask that.  It's from Chappelle's Show, but you don't watch TV...and you're too fucking old for that show anyway. :tongue:


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2732957 - 05/26/04 05:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Frog: Out of curiousity, Sclorch and Renegade, what caused you to be able to let go of the stress of living that most people seem to experience?
...
Frog: Good points, 2Experimental and Renegade. It's not our beliefs in God or whatever that reduced the stress and anxiety. It's our reaction to it. We can't impose our will on external reality. We have to just accept it. Good point that kaiowas made, too.

So, it all really has nothing to do with God. It all has to do with our outlook on life. This seems so "duh" but I hadn't thought about it this way.


I don't think anything in particular caused me to have the outlook I have. I think it was a gradual realization that I held alot of beliefs that weren't necessary and were sometimes a hindrance.

It all boils down to recognizing and accepting when a belief is no longer working for you. Ignoring this is a cause of alot of stress for people. I tell you... it's alot easier thinking that life just sucks sometimes rather than being upset at God for screwing you over and only being able to remind yourself that "God works in mysterious ways".


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2733556 - 05/26/04 07:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I don't think that God has screwed me over. I do think that God works in mysterious ways. This is where karma comes in, for me. That, and reincarnation, and lessons. There are reasons for things. Lessons to learn.

Part of the lessons I have to learn is to accept a situation rather than trying to change it so that I maintain my comfort level. I can do this, for the most part. I've learned to accept things the way they are, change what I can, if I can, etc.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2734921 - 05/27/04 02:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You see... this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Fuck lessons. Lessons aren't something that should be dealt to someone. Is not the better student the one who actively seeks a lesson? What... is God somehow above this ideal that he can just push whatever lesson he wants on the unwilling? And what about the lessons he pushes on the students who ARE willing? Does he always give them the particular life lessons they're seeking? NO. He gives them whatever the fuck he wants. Fuck God's "mysterious way" - it's just a euphemism for being an asshole.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2736388 - 05/27/04 01:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Cool - looks like you don't need my answer anymore.  See, every now & then procrastination actually does get me out of something. :tongue:


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2737360 - 05/27/04 05:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

God is SOOOO going to strike you dead!  Don't go outside for a while.  Wait 'til he forgets what you said.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2737584 - 05/27/04 06:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

...but froggy, I would never hurt any of my children!  :heart:


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2737776 - 05/27/04 07:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"Fuck God's "mysterious way" - it's just a euphemism for being an asshole."

everyone has an asshole, even god(I think!?@!@!?_) besides that , I think Nature is god, and nature including trees and 'humans'(NOT human actions), are mysterious and random. therefore perhaps this mysterious teaching god gives us is SUPPOSED to be random, someimes unwanted 'help' in ways we could nto even imagine, even if at the time we see our kids die before our eyes we may not 'understand' the 'plan'


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2738954 - 05/27/04 11:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Religious ideas are just that - God is epicenter of a love that even I find myself in mysterious awe of, being entirely dumbfounded by it but at the same time grateful. A compassion that burns so intense that in His remembrance one's chest begins to clench, the eyes squint and tear up.. and even at that point the Love feels endless - like the remembrance is just the shore of an ocean (this idea seemed to of inspired Maulana Rumi in his poetry about 'drowning' in the Love of God). Those who love God through human history are nothing but a veil, or a sleek curtain on God - this is how endless the compassionate reality of God is. We as humans don't even have the means to love God with our own love.. it's too little compared to so much. We only have the ability to love God with His own Love. It's a sea, my friend sclorch. So many humans, and an abundance of love. So much of it that we are made of it in potential, bit by bit, breaking away from the Beloved God one human birth at a time, with the potential to disappear again after physical death into the sea of love. Humans don't exist. :heart:


Edited by Zahid (05/27/04 11:26 PM)


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zahid]
    #2739076 - 05/27/04 11:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Zahid said t we only have the ability to love God with His own Love, this is so true, humans are incapable of Divine Love with-in there own self.It truly takes the Masters hand to provide this to all who are willing,peace and love Gypsy


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zahid]
    #2739533 - 05/28/04 12:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Very nicely said, Zahid and gypsy.  :heart:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zahid]
    #2739753 - 05/28/04 01:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So, you're telling me that "God" is more akin to a really intense, self-referential feeling?
What's the point, bub?

And furthermore, I don't think "God" has any real power. I think it's all an illusion. A man-made personification of the unknown that has been figuratively endowed with power. This "deity" is then channeled (or whatever) by wizards, sages, priests, and the like... who then interpret the "will of God." This "will of God" is then used to judge humanity.

It's just ridiculous.

But sure... call it love... call it compassion... call me an asshole... it's bullshit.
And you bought it.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2739778 - 05/28/04 01:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I know it wasn't me to whom you referred your post, but I don't see it that way, exactly. 

You don't believe.  That's fine.  Some of us believe.  That's fine, too.  But you're not an asshole, and people who believe are not usually delusional.  Call it "context". 

And yes, "God" is personal.  I don't think anyone should be telling anyone else what they should think or feel.  Call it "perspective".

:headbang:  <---:lol:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2739879 - 05/28/04 01:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Do you, Frog, attribute power to this "perspective?"


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2739894 - 05/28/04 01:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In my own personal life, yes.  Now, a break for my disclaimers:  :grin:

I don't think that what I think should be thought by all participants on this forum.  If I think I derive any "power" from my perspective, it is only a personal power, and is not to be confused with any power that may or may not exist.  If YOU do not derive any power from my perspective, or from your own, should your own perspective be derived in some way from my perspective, then such power and/or perspective should be dismissed, and mine should be adopted immediately.  If my power and/or perspective does not avail itself to you, dial 9-1-1 immediately.

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2739936 - 05/28/04 01:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The point so to speak is an eternal moment of burning compassion. The final return to the Beloved. If I were to experience right now what I shall experience after death, I would explode as the physical human heart can only withstand a limited amount of the remembrance of God. My only bodily reaction to the remembrance of the Beloved is to cry without control.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2739944 - 05/28/04 01:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So this "perspective" is...
1.  Personal
2.  Empowering (but only on a personal level)

Okay,  I have some follow up questions:
A) Is this "God" separate from your Self?
B) If yes to A, do you see this "God" as being internal or external?

(please answer succintly and don't dance about with phrases like "all is God" or "all is one")

P.S. I'm not trying to prove of disprove anything... I'm just probing your human brain.... *evil laugh*  :sinister:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zahid]
    #2740016 - 05/28/04 02:03 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
The point so to speak is an eternal moment of burning compassion. The final return to the Beloved. If I were to experience right now what I shall experience after death, I would explode as the physical human heart can only withstand a limited amount of the remembrance of God. My only bodily reaction to the remembrance of the Beloved is to cry without control.



You see... suppose you're right on this one. How did you come into this wealth of knowledge concerning the "remembrance of God" or the "final return to the Beloved" or the afterlife? Did someone skirt God's powerful eye and somehow break out of heaven and tell somebody? Why would they want to leave bliss for even a second? Also, how would they be able to talk about it through all the uncontrollable crying?

And let's say God somehow allowed someone to know about the afterlife and whatnot... does this not bypass his demand that we have faith in his word alone? And what are we REALLY talking about when we speak of "God's Word"? It's really just a bunch of hearsay ala a bunch of priests. Has God ever come to you and said "Hey, Zahid, guess what I've planned for you in the afterlife - a bunch of bliss, dude! It's gonna be so sweet... but remember, you don't win the trip to heaven if you break my rules so be cool and stay in school...."

If God wouldn't find that humorous... then fuck him... I'm holding out for the good-humored God.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740031 - 05/28/04 02:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm holding out for the good-humored God.

As do I, but as evidenced elsewhere, humor and spirituality appear to (some to) be mutually exclusive.

Who the hell invented humor anyway if not The Creator?


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Swami]
    #2740035 - 05/28/04 02:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

man?


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2740052 - 05/28/04 02:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Oh sure... man can create something as divine as humor.... but he can't create God...


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740053 - 05/28/04 02:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No heaven, no hell, no creation. Wadud-e-Mehboob (True Love in Everything), there is only God, the Beloved. To obtain the secrets of reality one must have gnosis of God (ma'rifahallah), and this knowledge sets the lovers of God free.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zahid]
    #2740069 - 05/28/04 02:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

But what are they free FROM?


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740077 - 05/28/04 02:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

man?


.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740081 - 05/28/04 02:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
So this "perspective" is...
1.  Personal
2.  Empowering (but only on a personal level)

Okay,  I have some follow up questions:
A) Is this "God" separate from your Self?
B) If yes to A, do you see this "God" as being internal or external?

(please answer succintly and don't dance about with phrases like "all is God" or "all is one")

P.S. I'm not trying to prove of disprove anything... I'm just probing your human brain.... *evil laugh*  :sinister:




I know.  I hate that too, when people give generalized answers like that.  But that's what's in them, at the moment.

B) If yes to A, do you see this "God" as being internal or external?

I see God as being external to me. 

God is external, but God is, imo, made of the same substance of which our spirits are made.  So even though God is separate and distinct, we are made of the same substance, but just transformed into physical bodies.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740083 - 05/28/04 02:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Freedom from the rules they apply to others?


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Swami]
    #2740103 - 05/28/04 02:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Freedom from the rules they apply to others?




Oooo... good call.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740108 - 05/28/04 02:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Free from Disorder, chaos, chattering minds, desire. To be free in what they believe.


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What?


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740116 - 05/28/04 02:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But what are they free FROM?




Physical matter.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zahid]
    #2740149 - 05/28/04 02:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So what you're telling me is that gnosis and seeking it are completely useless to me in life, right?

If not, let me know when you've become enlightened so I can borrow a few pounds of flesh. Mmkay?


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740161 - 05/28/04 02:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not telling you anything. I don't know where you got that idea from.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zahid]
    #2740197 - 05/28/04 02:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well, physical matter plays a significant role in life. Every time you breathe in oxygen molecules and take a sip of water, your physical matter interacts with other physical matter. If gnosis frees one from physical matter, that must mean that you're dead. If you're dead, you're not living and it's true - you no longer need physical matter. So, if all gnosis has to offer is "freedom from physical matter," then it's pretty damn useless to me in life.

So about that flesh....


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740218 - 05/28/04 03:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Gnosis is knowledge of God, to experience one's self as consciousness; to discorporate into metaphysics. It sets lovers free from physical matter. The offer is in God, the Beloved.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2752402 - 06/01/04 10:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

its good to have (to an extent) a naive view of life as there will be more possibilites open to you, otherwise your thrown into paranoia and very untrusting.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Chronic7]
    #2752993 - 06/01/04 02:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

chronic777 said:
its good to have (to an extent) a naive view of life as there will be more possibilites open to you, otherwise your thrown into paranoia and very untrusting.



That's just in the beginning... I got over it. Acid helped.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Chronic7]
    #2754903 - 06/01/04 11:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

chronic777 said:
its good to have (to an extent) a naive view of life as there will be more possibilites open to you, otherwise your thrown into paranoia and very untrusting.




I admit I'm naive.  I would rather be naive than paranoid.  However, the constant surprise that peolpe can do some pretty fucked up things gets a little old. 

And did you know that my criminal clients are never guilty?  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Chronic7]
    #2755415 - 06/02/04 02:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

chronic777 said:
its good to have (to an extent) a naive view of life as there will be more possibilites open to you, otherwise your thrown into paranoia and very untrusting.




huh????

or....you could just end up being a solid adult with a stable personality and healthy view of life.


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Positronius]
    #2755426 - 06/02/04 02:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

or....you could just end up being a solid adult with a stable personality and healthy view of life.

Sometimes that is just the chance that one has to take.  :stoned:


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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2755989 - 06/02/04 09:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.kanepera.com/god.htm

('tis been edited a bit)


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