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OfflineFrog
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Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs)
    #2718133 - 05/23/04 01:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I was watching the movie ?Signs? again last night, and came upon this scene:

Mel Gibson and his brother have just finished seeing the news, which shows 14 ships from space invading the air space above Mexico City, and Mel Gibson says:

?People break down into two groups. When they experience something lucky, group #1 sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign. Imminence, that someone is up there looking out for them.

Group #2 sees it as just pure luck. A happy turn of chance. Oh, sure, the people in group #2 are looking at those lights in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation is 50/50. Could be bad. Could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they?re on their own and that feels them with fear. There are those people.

But there?s a whole lot of people in Group #1, and they see those 14 lights, they?re looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever is going to happen, there?ll be someone there to help them, and that feels them with hope.

And what you have to ask yourself is which kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs and miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky? Or, look at the question this way?Is it possible that there are no coincidences??


I also see these two types of people in real life. So if you are in Group #2, do you think you are limiting yourself? See, I am in group #1. I think that, no matter what happens, someone is going to help me because I believe someone ?up there? is looking out for me. There may be no one looking out for me, but because of my ?alleged? na?ve belief in God and the Universe, I may be looking for help and getting it. Or, someone is in fact looking out for me and putting people there to help me.

If you don?t believe in God or the Universe, or anything, if you think you are on your own, do you not consequently and even unintentionally limit your options?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2718183 - 05/23/04 02:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

no, not at all. What kind of a question is that?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2718197 - 05/23/04 02:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"If you don?t believe in God or the Universe, or anything, if you think you are on your own, do you not consequently and even unintentionally limit your options"

YES, totally.... You dont ' go to heaven' by believing in god, nor do you win any prize except your own peace of mind, and noticed improvement in life.... Just believe!!... TRULY believe all you skeptics and you will find the possative more then the negative..



great point Frog!


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2718272 - 05/23/04 02:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Would you consider yourself limited to certain beliefs? Wouldnt believing in one thing, and being skeptical of another limit you anyway? Either way, you are limiting yourself to a set of circumstances.

I wouldnt put myself in either of those groups. Its rather limiting to my understanding of things :wink:.


--------------------
What?


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2718331 - 05/23/04 03:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Faith is really a powerful tool, it is like a support for oneself to go through difficult times.

Unfortunately, I am a skeptic and trying to have faith because it is useful and practical actually make me have even less faith. I may analyze a situation ratinally and decide that faith in a higher power would have been useful to go through it. But thinking about it this way makes it impossible to belive really..


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2719306 - 05/23/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
Would you consider yourself limited to certain beliefs? Wouldnt believing in one thing, and being skeptical of another limit you anyway? Either way, you are limiting yourself to a set of circumstances.

I wouldnt put myself in either of those groups. Its rather limiting to my understanding of things :wink:.




Assuming I don't limit myself to just one set of beliefs, then of course I don't limit myself.  My main limitation, if it can be considered a limitation, is that I limit myself to belief in God.  That means by choice I am excluding a belief in Bhudda and other supreme beings that others may believe in.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that I automatically eschew the beliefs held by other religions, or that come with believing in other Gods.  For instance, I believe in karma, but I've said before that I don't think karma is inconsistent with things that are taught in the bible, or with a belief in God or Jesus.

I suppose I am mainly talking to people who don't believe in anything.  Those who shun any of the hocus-pocus ( :grin: ) that believers believe in, like signs, and the universe, and God or gods, or whatever. 

Example:  If I believe that God or the Universe puts people here to help me, I will go out and seek that help consciously, because I know it's there based on past experience.  People who don't believe in such nonsense such as signs and God and the Universe helping them, won't go out and actively seek such help, because in their minds, it doesn't exist. 

So let's assume that such help, signs, whatever, doesn't exist.  Even if it doesn't exist, as long as I think it exists, I will act on the existence of such things and go seek help or talk to people, thinking they are there to help me, while people who don't believe in such things limit themselves to, well, themselves.  And of course, they worry more than people who do believe.

That's another example:  Because I think God helps me, I don't worry about stuff, because I have found that everything works out.  And even if something seems dire, my belief in God puts me at ease because I know there's a reason for everything.  People who don't believe in anything seem to worry more and have more anxieties.

Maintaining worry and anxiety is time-consuming and interferes with one's ability to effectively look for a solution.  By not worrying, I free my mind up to find a solution much more quickly.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (05/23/04 07:22 PM)


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2719426 - 05/23/04 07:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

god shmod jesus beeezus.

Cant we get over all of that nonsense and make up some new shit? preferbably including robots and sexy aliens?


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Positronius]
    #2719889 - 05/23/04 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

* positronius gets struck by a bolt from jesus :gd_icon: *


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2720491 - 05/23/04 10:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
If you don?t believe in God or the Universe, or anything, if you think you are on your own, do you not consequently and even unintentionally limit your options?




What have I told you about believing what Mel Gibson says?
:wink:

Without getting into semantics and definitions and whatnot.... I don't think it's limiting at all to not have a belief in something as ethereal as "God".  Note that a lack of a belief in the existence of something is NOT equivalent with a belief that something does not exist.  In the case of the latter, I'd say that any limitations imposed upon oneself by one's disbelief could only be measured by the hand of experience.  If it works... it works.  If it doesn't work... it's time for revision (or denial :wink:).  Of course, the same goes for those who do believe in God.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2720746 - 05/23/04 11:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Frog, I get the sense that you're reaching out. I think what you need to be told right now is: no. Not having faith does not limit me. I don't cower because I'm afraid a higher authority doesn't exist, and you don't have to either. You can pursue life wholeheartedly without the use of a crutch.

In the last 5 months I've lived in 4 cities, covered over 7000 kilmoeters, and have been living out of a (large) backpack in pursuit of exactly what I want to do. I walk around at night without fear, I sleep under the stars, under bushes, in the woods, I've fought wild animals and found food in the cracks of modern society. I don't trust higher authorities, I trust myself, the world our species was shaped by, and I have faith in the insignifigance of my own existence. That's all you need. You don't need God and Karma. That's all bullshit.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2720755 - 05/23/04 11:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

to me, what I see here is just labels. why have this much emphasis on grouping people from all walks of life into these two categories? Do you think that each person has the equal opportunity to be a "believer" and to be a "non believer?" If you are a believer, then you should have some kind of concept that each person walks their own path. The "nonbelievers" really aren't limiting themselves because they are doing what they need to do and have a good idea of what feels "correct" to them. Where's the limitation?

Maybe our focus should be different. how about we focus on the believers and why they "belive."

Four years ago I used to think that god never existed. At that time I "knew" I was correct, I had rationalized it out over and over. But then I realized how pompous I was to make such a bold claim. It never really struck me before that after all my rationaization, I was still not 100% sure, so who was I to say what is what? what category does that fit into? Isn't it ok to just not know, and instead focus on what is here and look at our similarities, instead of differences. Sure my opinion will change, and I keep an open mind to new ideas that come up. where is the self limitation?

There are times when I am a believer, and then sometimes I'm not. It's just I haven't made up my mind quite yet, is this limitating? no...it's just I feel that I don't need to make bold claims just yet about something I know very little of.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2721101 - 05/24/04 01:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To Sclorch, Mixomatosis and kaiowas:  I'm going to lump you all together here in my reply, since you all responded in kind.

This is what I needed to know.  It's not a challenge, or my way of saying that people who don't believe in anything are "wrong".  I was curious if it could be true, what his lines were in the movie. 

I personally am wrong for lumping all nonbelievers into one category.  I can see that now.  You have to admit, however, that there are a lot of people who have no beliefs (which yes, are a form of belief) who seem to have a lot of worries. 

But, I have to admit that there are a lot of believers who have a lot of worries, too.  Maybe a belief in the Universe or God or whatever is not necessary to have peace of mind. 

So maybe what it comes down to is not whether you are a believer or not.  Maybe what it comes down to is whether you have learned to get over your worries and anxieties and where you place importance and from who you seek help when you need help. 

Thanks for setting me straight.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2722948 - 05/24/04 03:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Also, don't look too hard for spiritual insights in the movie "Signs" please. That movie was like a bad episode of the X-files.


Swing away! At the bad CGI green alien thing. Swing away!


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Viveka]
    #2724113 - 05/24/04 07:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Positronius

YOU ARE THE MAN. sign me up, i want those sex robots with extra alien. preferably from inside a computer linked up to every neuron in solar system.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2724753 - 05/24/04 10:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A belief is just an opinion, one that, in a persons own mind, becomes concrete fact. From this stance it is easy to see that any belief is a limiting one. Now I'm not going to generalize entire groups into one category or another, even though I do have some opinions on it subject, but I will give some advice to people considering anything other than their own limits to the human experience: Why wait for your ship to come in when you can swim out and board it?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2725196 - 05/25/04 12:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, so now I'm wondering. Let's assume that there are other non-believers out there like Sclorch, Mixomatosis and kaiowas, who aren't believers, but who aren't swimming in anxiety and fear and hopelessness, and that there are other believers like me and others on this forum, who aren't swimming in the same.

What's the difference between us and those who are swimming? And you have to admit, regardless of what causes one to find peace in life regardless of the pitfalls, it's better than drowning.

And what do you mean, ShroomHermit, by "Why wait for your ship to come in when you can swim out and board it?"?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2726275 - 05/25/04 04:37 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'd say the difference is that I'm less affected by any negative pressure in my life. I'm able to see it for what it is. This means that I can usually keep calm and enjoy life without freaking out and stressing (as much - some things are difficult to overcome). I also rarely exhibit the knee-jerk reaction of my anxiety-ridden peers.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineRenegade8
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2727268 - 05/25/04 12:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'd say it has to do with letting go. You were able to do this by trusting God to take care of you and letting things be in His hands.

I can't speak for all the non-believers, but for me it was about seeing the world for what it is, not what it's "supposed" to be - nothing is "good" or "bad", it just is. From what I've seen, most fear & anxiety comes from trying to reconcile reality with one's judgments & expectations of how things "should" be.


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Renegade8]
    #2729909 - 05/25/04 11:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Out of curiousity, Sclorch and Renegade, what caused you to be able to let go of the stress of living that most people seem to experience?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Self-limiting beliefs (or nonbeliefs) [Re: Frog]
    #2730485 - 05/26/04 01:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

there isn't much stress to living, only when we try to impose our will on external reality does stress really occur. :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Edited by kaiowas (05/26/04 01:25 AM)


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