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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils * 2
    #27176170 - 01/29/21 12:34 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Roger Bacon (1214-1294) was a Franciscan Friar of the Middle Ages who stipulated four main causes of ignorance:

First, the example of frail and unsuitable authority.

Second, the influence of custom.

Third, the opinion of the unlearned crowd.

Fourth, the concealment of one's ignorance in a display of apparent wisdom.

According for Friar Bacon, these four factors are the wellspring of all human evils.


What do you think? Should something be removed? Should something be added? I decided to post this because these four factors seem, as far as I can tell, to apply pretty well to the modern age, and specifically what has been happening in the world lately. Perhaps some discussion can be sparked.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27176254 - 01/29/21 01:25 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

I'm workin' on #4 in plain light of day


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27176962 - 01/29/21 08:03 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Roger Bacon (1214-1294) was a Franciscan Friar of the Middle Ages who stipulated four main causes of ignorance:

First, the example of frail and unsuitable authority.

Second, the influence of custom.

Third, the opinion of the unlearned crowd.

Fourth, the concealment of one's ignorance in a display of apparent wisdom.

According for Friar Bacon, these four factors are the wellspring of all human evils.


What do you think? Should something be removed? Should something be added? I decided to post this because these four factors seem, as far as I can tell, to apply pretty well to the modern age, and specifically what has been happening in the world lately. Perhaps some discussion can be sparked.




Interesting you go back so far in time, to explain the present. Also interesting that Bacon's first 3 causes are all external. And only the 4th one relates to the individual, where the only fault is found to be vanity.
So I don't feel violence is accounted for, which is a big part of American societies problems. And I don't think it accounts for why different people are effected differently by the various causes he lists.
In religion faults are perhaps tied to internal moral failings of the individual.
In Buddhism the problem is found to be internal, but not a moral one per se, according to DA.
Supposedly the core Buddhist teaching, found in “Dependent Origination or Arising” finds the root of our troubles, in the unconscious drive, to be a self.

(The “big Bang theory” and the story of genesis appear to view creation as a one time event.
Another view may be that creation is continuous. This could be either digital/granular, or analogue.
In a sense our lives involve continuous creation, as, as soon as we stop breathing, its all over.
Like wise there is no resting for a seal balancing on a ball.

We find the same same thing in a ponzi scheme, or multi level marketing, or stock market bubble. When things are false, they can sometimes keep up appearances, as long as they stay in motion.)

This outlook, applies to the ego, in the Buddhist view. The result is that the unconscious drive, to be a self, is a continuous drive, and an anxious one.
According to “Dependent Origination or Arising” thru this building of a self we also create our realities (that which dependently arises). Of course we are not generally aware of this or we wouldn’t believe ‘reality’ was ‘real’. The same goes for the ’self’.

So the point of the teaching, is for us to observe ourselves, and see if behind our actions, we can find a continuous thread showing a hidden purpose of reaffirming, to ourselves, that we are who we think we are, and that all our beliefs are true. Part of what is supposed to be remarkable is that the process has a very driven quality to it. If we do indeed discover that this is so, it maybe mind-blowing, if not it would seem to be a useless idea.

I wish I could say something more definite. Linda, and those who discuss the teaching, at the links below go into much more depth, in case this brief overview sparks interest.

Anyway this is how I understand Dependent Arising, as explained by  Linda Banchard, as of now;
at:
https://secularbuddhism.org/what-is-dependent-arising/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
https://secularbuddhism.org/episode-201-linda-blanchard-dependent-arising-in-context/

Episode 201 :: Linda Blanchard :: Dependent Arising In Context
By Ted Meissner | June 7, 2014
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
https://secularbuddhism.org/dependent-arising-in-context-by-linda-blanchard-a-review/

Dependent Arising in Context, by Linda Blanchard:
A Review By Mark Knickelbine | April 8, 2013


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27177118 - 01/29/21 10:29 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Roger Bacon (1214-1294) was a Franciscan Friar of the Middle Ages who stipulated four main causes of ignorance:

First, the example of frail and unsuitable authority.

Second, the influence of custom.

Third, the opinion of the unlearned crowd.

Fourth, the concealment of one's ignorance in a display of apparent wisdom.

According for Friar Bacon, these four factors are the wellspring of all human evils.


What do you think? Should something be removed? Should something be added? I decided to post this because these four factors seem, as far as I can tell, to apply pretty well to the modern age, and specifically what has been happening in the world lately. Perhaps some discussion can be sparked.




Reminds me of the seven deadly sins. Where would greed fit in?

On a different tangent, they all relate to biases.

I'd say the main cause of ignorance is not knowing a thing. And upon knowing, there are causes that perpetuate. They all relate to biases in perception not congruent with reality.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: Rahz]
    #27177140 - 01/29/21 10:45 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
...
I'd say the main cause of ignorance is not knowing a thing. And upon knowing, there are causes that perpetuate. They all relate to biases in perception not congruent with reality.




How do you account for those enmeshed in conspiracy theories. Seems often folks that believe in one, believe in many.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #27177263 - 01/30/21 12:49 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

This thread reminds me precisely of this book:



Which is summarized as:



--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27177291 - 01/30/21 01:30 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Sounds like a good description of religion to me.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: laughingdog]
    #27177634 - 01/30/21 09:00 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

Interesting you go back so far in time, to explain the present. Also interesting that Bacon's first 3 causes are all external. And only the 4th one relates to the individual, where the only fault is found to be vanity.
So I don't feel violence is accounted for, which is a big part of American societies problems. And I don't think it accounts for why different people are effected differently by the various causes he lists.
In religion faults are perhaps tied to internal moral failings of the individual.
In Buddhism the problem is found to be internal, but not a moral one per se, according to DA.
Supposedly the core Buddhist teaching, found in “Dependent Origination or Arising” finds the root of our troubles, in the unconscious drive, to be a self.

(The “big Bang theory” and the story of genesis appear to view creation as a one time event.
Another view may be that creation is continuous. This could be either digital/granular, or analogue.
In a sense our lives involve continuous creation, as, as soon as we stop breathing, its all over.
Like wise there is no resting for a seal balancing on a ball.

We find the same same thing in a ponzi scheme, or multi level marketing, or stock market bubble. When things are false, they can sometimes keep up appearances, as long as they stay in motion.)

This outlook, applies to the ego, in the Buddhist view. The result is that the unconscious drive, to be a self, is a continuous drive, and an anxious one.
According to “Dependent Origination or Arising” thru this building of a self we also create our realities (that which dependently arises). Of course we are not generally aware of this or we wouldn’t believe ‘reality’ was ‘real’. The same goes for the ’self’.

So the point of the teaching, is for us to observe ourselves, and see if behind our actions, we can find a continuous thread showing a hidden purpose of reaffirming, to ourselves, that we are who we think we are, and that all our beliefs are true. Part of what is supposed to be remarkable is that the process has a very driven quality to it. If we do indeed discover that this is so, it maybe mind-blowing, if not it would seem to be a useless idea.

I wish I could say something more definite. Linda, and those who discuss the teaching, at the links below go into much more depth, in case this brief overview sparks interest.

Anyway this is how I understand Dependent Arising, as explained by  Linda Banchard, as of now;
at:
https://secularbuddhism.org/what-is-dependent-arising/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
https://secularbuddhism.org/episode-201-linda-blanchard-dependent-arising-in-context/

Episode 201 :: Linda Blanchard :: Dependent Arising In Context
By Ted Meissner | June 7, 2014
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
https://secularbuddhism.org/dependent-arising-in-context-by-linda-blanchard-a-review/

Dependent Arising in Context, by Linda Blanchard:
A Review By Mark Knickelbine | April 8, 2013





Lovely response. My intent was not to go back in time; I merely came across this thesis and decided to share. I think it really can apply to a lot of the ills we see, but as you point out, it doesn't address violence too well. Perhaps we could attribute violence to custom (#2), but then we would also have to look at integrative or group tendencies of humans, as well as "human nature," and this seems to be beyond this list. So your point is well taken.

I definitely assent to your ideas about the phenomenon of self and what that entails, and clearly this is a more direct, specific and accurate diagnosis of the problem. I just thought the contents of the original post were interesting material for a post.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: Rahz]
    #27177642 - 01/30/21 09:06 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I'd say the main cause of ignorance is not knowing a thing. And upon knowing, there are causes that perpetuate. They all relate to biases in perception not congruent with reality.





Well I think the idea is that each of the four factors indeed leads to being deceived or prevented from knowing the truth. So each is a way of "not knowing a thing." I think each factor listed is legitimate. The question is, perhaps, what would one add? As LD suggested, violence needs to be addressed more explicitly. I wonder what else should be added.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27177778 - 01/30/21 10:50 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe they call it the path of wisdom because you cannot realistically profess to be all informed; but your way of proceeding in life, i.e. the path, is such that you keep on learning more about how things are, and in this way your knowledge expands.

however, just beyond the limit of what anyone knows at any juncture, the infinite undefined other is hiden in a vast myst of ignorance.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27178072 - 01/30/21 02:17 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

I'll add that ignorance is cultivated by our habit of labeling ourselves and others - which often creates hostility. Labeling is usually a judgmental activity that includes condemnation. And ridicule. We are so used to labeling, we don't observe how it fuels a distorted ignorant view of people. Notice how we choose to see some politicians as less than human. That's ignorance.

Ignorance is also perpetuated when we fail to see how we create and sustain emotional disturbances. We become so engrossed in self loathing and blaming others that become blind to the fact we are oftentimes the catalyst for long term chronic misery. Many people are unwilling to examine their cognitive behavior, and to learn how it reinforces ignorance. It takes balls to do it.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #27178263 - 01/30/21 05:19 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

I think those are excellent additions. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27178557 - 01/30/21 09:20 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
...

I definitely assent to your ideas about the phenomenon of self and what that entails, and clearly this is a more direct, specific and accurate diagnosis of the problem. I just thought the contents of the original post were interesting material for a post.




It would seem Buddha made his diagnosis as broad as possible. Still political and religious and powerful people are perhaps rather unlikely to hear a message that hints that the whole personality structure is mainly a defense, and that as a result our reality views are at least partly fantasy.

Today we know many more details of things that can go wrong, from trauma, genes, cultures with very unfortunate beliefs, malnutrition, and dysfunctional families, etc.

So for myself, I would say there is no simple cause, or set of causes, that everyone can correct and then become freer, happier, and better. Perhaps this is why it has been said: 'know thyself', and part 2 might be: 'and tailor your healing efforts accordingly'.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #27178718 - 01/30/21 11:35 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I'll add that ignorance is cultivated by our habit of labeling ourselves and others - which often creates hostility. Labeling is usually a judgmental activity that includes condemnation. And ridicule. We are so used to labeling, we don't observe how it fuels a distorted ignorant view of people. Notice how we choose to see some politicians as less than human. That's ignorance.

Ignorance is also perpetuated when we fail to see how we create and sustain emotional disturbances. We become so engrossed in self loathing and blaming others that become blind to the fact we are oftentimes the catalyst for long term chronic misery. Many people are unwilling to examine their cognitive behavior, and to learn how it reinforces ignorance. It takes balls to do it.




Your second paragraph is lucid AF and spot on. I'm a psychiatrist and 4/5 of my work is helping people to not only realize, but accept FULLY, what you just said: emotional disturbances become neuro-habitual, and self-sustaining. Victim mindsets become mental programs that are self-reinforcing. We program ourselves through neuroplasticity via everything, and I mean everything, we do and don't think we're doing.

Here's the crux: once becoming aware that you're ultimately CHOOSING to perpetuate suboptimal behavior/habits, you have to realize you're resisting the notion of choice in your life because most associate CHOICE with SHAME, because I'M MAKING THE WRONG CHOICE, SO CHOICE CAN'T BE AN OPTION (a choice of perception, lol).

Choice is not shame, but feeling shame is a choice! Weeks and months are spent getting people to come around to this and then it's like unlocking Pandora's box for them.

There's a fantastic little book I make all clients that have a "resistance to their own resistance" read if they won't take my word for it, and it's this clinical gem right here:



For another red pill, you'll find those most often hitching their personalities to moral arguments are typically holding the most unconscious moral beliefs about themselves and others. I.E. people that feel the need to virtue signal constantly are usually the most racist, dangerous, hateful people that exist. This circles back to your first paragraph/point above.

Everyone loves to point out a big truck is a sign of penis size insecurity, but that shit goes ALL WAYS in society, on every level, with everything. Selective skepticism does nobody any favors, least of all the group that could benefit most from said skepticism.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27178963 - 01/31/21 07:19 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:

For another red pill, you'll find those most often hitching their personalities to moral arguments are typically holding the most unconscious moral beliefs about themselves and others. I.E. people that feel the need to virtue signal constantly are usually the most racist, dangerous, hateful people that exist.




Amen    :thumbup:

I try to avoid promoting authors or named theories - I guess because there is often resistance ("You read some idea in some book - whatever!..." or "That person is just another quack") - which, by the way, I find I do sometimes. BUT, I must blurt out (another) endorsement for the incredible work of Albert Ellis. It's like aiming a flamethrower at the forest of ignorance. When we see our central role in our misery, we can never go back. Once the cat is out of the bag, and we see clearly, it's pretty much impossible to put the blinders back on. I'm human, so I do sometimes find myself trying to put the blinders back on. Which I find humorous.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #27180168 - 02/01/21 12:43 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Ever notice people dismiss sources when it's a direct threat to what they think they know? Back to our other posts above, same phenomena lol.

There comes a stage where shit gets self-defeating and those people labeling you something for being direct, empirical, and objective (as possible at this time in history) means nothing and only further proves your point.

Welcome to psychology! :sunny:


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleVinci
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27181547 - 02/01/21 06:39 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Ignorance is a lack of awareness. Arguably, when we are born we have just started to be aware, so ignorance is a given and is abundant. All we can truly confirm with logic is that we don't know what we don't know. "The cause of ignorance" is like the cause of darkness. It's not caused by anything other than an absence of something else. It is a flux, a spectrum that we find our place on based of the presence of opposite competing values, in our case, awareness and ignorance. So the biggest cause of ignorance is the fact that awareness exists.

I'd say that the source of all of our individual distress is impatience, and to call any action evil or an evil is rather one sided and ignorant.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: Vinci]
    #27181649 - 02/01/21 07:52 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Vinci said:
Ignorance is a lack of awareness. Arguably, when we are born we have just started to be aware, so ignorance is a given and is abundant. All we can truly confirm with logic is that we don't know what we don't know. "The cause of ignorance" is like the cause of darkness. It's not caused by anything other than an absence of something else. It is a flux, a spectrum that we find our place on based of the presence of opposite competing values, in our case, awareness and ignorance. So the biggest cause of ignorance is the fact that awareness exists.

I'd say that the source of all of our individual distress is impatience, and to call any action evil or an evil is rather one sided and ignorant.




this is an example of pretty good clarity from intense drug use and honest intentions. it will probably get better.

I think patience is key to making space around shit you wished wouldn't be, and it lets you see what has to be done.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: Vinci]
    #27182175 - 02/02/21 03:01 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Vinci said:
...It's not caused by anything other than an absence of something else. ....




You really think that is the case? In these times of constant talk about fake news. To say nothing of cults .... and religions...and...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The four causes of ignorance from which spring all human evils [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27182237 - 02/02/21 05:06 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

buddhism has many lists that can sort of explain things, such as the 3 root causes of bad karma, hatred + greed + delusion.

ignorance is a variant of delusion, and it is the one we are born with, similar to original sin. Although they say, "be as a child to enter the kingdom of heaven", in which case what you don't know WONT HURT YOU. Paradoxically this can be true, but attempting intellectual acrobatics to be both as a child and wise yet relaxed can give you a twisted mentality.

what Vinci says is pretty good for now.


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