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 Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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 Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam  [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2712219 - 05/21/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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As I am not making a claim as to whether they exist or notI need provide no proof
So if Bush says "Elvis is alive and living at Loch Ness" and sends thousands of men to scour the area and offer million dollar rewards and Elvis isn't there...it's still up to us to "prove" Elvis isn't living at Loch Ness before you will accept it?
You however are making such a cliam
What "claim" am I making? Are you disagreeing that no WMD can be found in Iraq?
Yup. Until such time as proof exists.
What proof are you looking for?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
#2712239 - 05/21/04 05:09 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
So if Bush says "Elvis is alive and living at Loch Ness" and sends thousands of men to scour the area and offer million dollar rewards and Elvis isn't there...it's still up to us to "prove" Elvis isn't living at Loch Ness before you will accept it?
That sounds more stupid each time you use it.
Quote:
What "claim" am I making?
That there are no WMD. Prove it.
Quote:
Are you disagreeing that no WMD can be found in Iraq?
I'll agree none have been found. (discounting the two recent finds which mean nothing)
Quote:
What proof are you looking for?
Your proof that Bush lied and that the WMD's do not exist.
Now.... can you provide proof of either?
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
#2712567 - 05/21/04 06:47 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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-bullshit the taliban endorsed and harbored al queda .
-The taliban, dinner guests of the administration on taxpayers money not more than a year before the war. The same taliban, governing in the same way.
-the lies defended by the old ‘secrecy for your own protection’ clause are continually fed to the people bullshit what lies? .
-the lies that saddam had the weapons hew wss accused of having. If the intelligence was so good, and the case so solid, where are the weapons? Where are the weapons?
-Powell pulls out some (impressive) intelligence photos, that look like selection of blurred pics of a pickup truck in Arizona. Undoubtably these pictures show Saddam’s massive nuclear arsenal is real bullshit come on frankie are you serious?( ahem)
-media-propaganda-tool-wafer thin circumstantial evidence-hype-Powell plays the dove in a good cop bad cop routine with Rumsfield-the case for war gets hard to push-Wheel out powell in hawk mode -*shock*= it must be true. Powell diddn't want war! Now even he insists!
-Yet despite this overwhelming ‘evidence’ which cannot actually be produced (ahem)……not one morsel of proof has surfaced bullshit . Military intelligence once again proves it’s own oxymoronity.
-The case for war was unfounded. There was never a threat to the USA, the UK or any Western country. Iraq had been under the strictest of sanctions since it's purge by Bush snr in the early 90's. How could Saddam have produced these things without the means to get the components? Oh and where are they? I thought the governments of USA & UK 'knew' he had them, yet they have not been produced.
-. I mean like they said it would be the first war without civilian casualties bullshit
- uhhh-do u have a memory?
-Not one of the war’s objective has been met bullshit . Not one of the reasons for these objectives was true bullshit .
-uhhh-WMD?WMD? doh!
-Except of course for the objectives of the arms industries, oil industries, and Mr Bush’s personal agenda bullshit
-arms industries-boomin, oil-secured, Bush-power and money-who da man?
-However America is much more desperate than in the Veitnam days, they gotta get Iraq or they won’t be the richest country in the world much longer! That’s the issue. bullshit
-well it could be bullshit if the economy transformed and we moved on into a new phase of technology. If only!
-Un un-elected ‘president’ bullshit (dictator of America, Afganistan and Iraq) bullshit
Fabricates a case for war bullshit
Against first Aphganistan bullshit , then Iraq bullshit
-the truth can hurt
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
#2712587 - 05/21/04 06:53 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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We just haven't found any yet, but there's no proof theyre not there.
is that like - guilty until proven innocent?
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2713684 - 05/22/04 12:50 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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That sounds more stupid each time you use it.
No more stupid than your blind belief that the Bush administration was telling the truth about WMD.
That there are no WMD. Prove it.
So what do you consider the thousands of people scouring Iraq and interviewing every scientist, offering million dollar rewards for the last 12 months?
If you don't consider that proof, what proof are you looking for? (I presume you're never going to answer this)
I'll agree none have been found
So how long are you going to cling to this position for? If they havn't been found in 2 years will you still argue WMD might be there? 10 years? 20 years? Is this going to be your "Bigfoot" thing?
Your proof that Bush lied and that the WMD's do not exist
The Bush administration stated repeatedly WMD posed a threat. There are no WMD there.
Now.... can you provide proof of either?
Apart from the thousands of people who have spent the last 12 months looking for them and interviewing every scientist who may have been involved?
If that isn't proof, could you please state what proof you require.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
#2713686 - 05/22/04 12:52 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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is that like - guilty until proven innocent?
No-one knows. We're inside luvs head here - it's a whole new world 
If only he'd state what proof he needs..
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
#2714040 - 05/22/04 05:05 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
No more stupid than your blind belief that the Bush administration was telling the truth about WMD.
And so you return to the lying. That's too bad as you went so long.
Quote:
If you don't consider that proof, what proof are you looking for?
I already told you, I'm looking for you to show me your proof they don't exist and your proof that Bush lied. As I have made no claim, I need provide no proof. I have, and will continue, to ask for your proof each and every time you make those claims.
Quote:
Is this going to be your "Bigfoot" thing?
Dishonesty.
Quote:
The Bush administration stated repeatedly WMD posed a threat.
And you claim that's a lie. Prove it. Links please, showing proof he lied.
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There are no WMD there.
Proof please, with links.
Quote:
Apart from the thousands of people who have spent the last 12 months looking for them and interviewing every scientist who may have been involved?
I bet they asked the murdered scientists a bunch of questions.
Quote:
If that isn't proof
It's not.
Quote:
could you please state what proof you require.
Your proof that Bush lied and that the WMD's do not exist.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
#2714041 - 05/22/04 05:06 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I am accused of being childish.....
By the way, repeating everything I say and putting 'bullshit' after it is extremely childish, and actually allows you to retaliate without forming an argument.
You don't seem to be able to argue
and as an observation: you and lovedem seem to have incredibly ironic names
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2714052 - 05/22/04 05:38 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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The Oil Baron Bush administration and Teflon Tony Blair's government told the public they had EVIDENCE. Evidence which must have been irrefutable, considering it was worthy to go charging into war over.
However this evidence could not be revealed to the public, apparemntly due to the sensitivity of the situation.
If the intelligence was that good, the evidence that sure, and considering the invading military has spy satellites that can apparently spot a needle ina hay stack, why did the invading troops pull these WMD straight out of their hidey-holes?
I wonder.......
----------
Luvdemshrooms said:
'I already told you, I'm looking for you to show me your proof they don't exist and your proof that Bush lied. As I have made no claim, I need provide no proof. I have, and will continue, to ask for your proof each and every time you make those claims.'
------------
Your premise is wrong. Bush made an assertion that HE HAD PROOF. You are agreeing with him, and therefore using his proof as the bedrock of your point of view. However NO PROOF has emerged. Therefore your argument is unfounded.
i mean try to look at it from an annecdotal point of view.
You go around a friend's house. He has a garden. In that garden there is no birdtable. However you insist there is a birdtable in the garden, to the point of extreme irritation. So you go out to look for yourself, you take 10 of your friends and camp out there for 2 weeks, searching high and low, and asking all the neighbours; but you cannot find a birdtable. However you insist it is there somewhere.
In actual fact it is not there at all.
Now when something isn't there - IT ISN'T THERE.
That is the proof.
If someone is accused of holding a knife and you stripsearch them and look in every orifice, and yet can't find it THAT IS PROOF IT IS NOT THERE.
THE PROOF THAT SOMETHING IS NOT THERE IS THE ABSENCE OF SAID THING.
I.e. our case is already proven, hence the desperate and lame PROOF-FREE claims by failing liars. (Or at best Delusional,misguided and extremely morally challenged people)
uuuuh - wasn't it 'mission accomplished' over a year ago? Wasn't the mission to find the WMD?
hmmmmmmm - something doesn't add up here.......I wonder what?
It's a pretty poorly run stageplay - everyone's forgettig their lines!
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
#2714062 - 05/22/04 06:02 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Your premise is wrong.
No, it's not.
It could be he lied. It could be the proof was wrong. I mean after all.... even John Kerry believed.
Quote:
You are agreeing with him, and therefore using his proof as the bedrock of your point of view.
Ah, so you can't read either. I've never said I agree with him. I've merely asked Alpo to provide the proof of his claims. Too bad you can't see the difference.
Quote:
However NO PROOF has emerged.
That's why I keep asking Alpo to provide some. I know he can't.
Quote:
Therefore your argument is unfounded.
No. what is unfounded is your assertion I made a claim at all.
Quote:
THE PROOF THAT SOMETHING IS NOT THERE IS THE ABSENCE OF SAID THING.
 No happy, all that proves is that you didn't find anything. That doesn't prove anything for there remain other possibilities.
1. It's not there.
2. You simply didn't find it.
3. It was there but was moved.
Now... your example of a search for a knife is as lame as your conclusion. It's not very difficult to search a person, can you state with proof that every square inch of Iraq has been searched?
Never become a lawyer. They need the ability to think, something you so obviously lack.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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 GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2714066 - 05/22/04 06:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I've never said I agree with him
You've never said you agree with Bush??? pull the other one!
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Always Smi2le
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: GazzBut]
#2714067 - 05/22/04 06:10 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said:
Quote:
I've never said I agree with him
You've never said you agree with Bush??? pull the other one!
Show me where I said I agree him on the WMD claim, which is both what this conversation is about, and what my statement referred to.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2714078 - 05/22/04 06:24 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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And so you return to the lying
Can you address the point instead of repeating the same flames you post every time? Trendal has warned you about this childish shit several times.
BTW, just to make this clear to you, as long as someone as devoted to dishonesty and lying as yourself considers me a liar I'm happy. Now can you make a point?
I'm looking for you to show me your proof they don't exist
The 12 month scouring of Iraq by thousands of people and interviewing of scientists?
I repeat, what more proof are you looking for?
As I have made no claim
The Bush administration made no claim there were WMD in Iraq? Is this the news live from Planet Dishonesty?
I need provide no proof.
Good job, seeing as there is none.
Meanwhile back on planet earth there is overwhelming evidence gathered over the last 12 months there are no WMD in Iraq.
Dishonesty.
Could you answer the question instead of flaming? Or is that beyond you?
How long are you going to deny the evidence showing there are no WMD in Iraq? 10 years? 20 years? Or will your dishonesty never end?
And you claim that's a lie. Prove it
The WMD arn't there. After 12 months extensive investigation. What more proof do you need?
Proof please
There has been a 12 month investigation. No WMD have been found. On what evidence do you say they are there? Links please.
It's not.
Why not? What more proof do you need? How many years do you need to go before you can accept WMD arn't there? I know you're dishonest to everyone else but can you really be that dishonest even to yourself? How do you live with yourself?
Your proof that Bush lied and that the WMD's do not exist.
The Bush administration claimed there were WMD in Iraq. After an extensive 12 month investigation none have been found. I repeat, what more proof do you need?
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
#2714100 - 05/22/04 06:48 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
No more stupid than your blind belief that the Bush administration was telling the truth about WMD.
Can you link to where I've said I believe Bush? No? Then.. you lied. Again.
Quote:
as long as someone as devoted to dishonesty and lying as yourself
Can you link to a single example of me lying? No? You lie again. I've offered to show examples of you doing it. You've never taken me up on my offer, but the two above demonstrate it quite nicely.
Quote:
I repeat, what more proof are you looking for?
Your proof to back up your claims that Bush lied and that are NO WMD..
Quote:
As I have made no claim
The Bush administration made no claim there were WMD in Iraq? Is this the news live from Planet Dishonesty?
I didn't say thea Bush administration made no claim. I said I didn't.
Yet another lie from you.
Quote:
I need provide no proof.
Good job, seeing as there is none.
Yup. which is why I didn't make the claim.
Quote:
Meanwhile back on planet earth there is overwhelming evidence gathered over the last 12 months there are no WMD in Iraq.
I see you've switched to using the word evidence instead of proof. I'm glad to see you are finally getting it.
Quote:
Dishonesty.
Could you answer the question instead of flaming? Or is that beyond you?
The truth isn't a flame. You lied. I pointed it out.
Quote:
And you claim that's a lie. Prove it
The WMD arn't there. After 12 months extensive investigation. What more proof do you need?
You're proof that they aren't.
Quote:
Proof please
There has been a 12 month investigation. No WMD have been found. On what evidence do you say they are there? Links please.
More dishonesty? I've never claimed they were.
Quote:
It's not.
Why not? What more proof do you need? How many years do you need to go before you can accept WMD arn't there? I know you're dishonest to everyone else but can you really be that dishonest even to yourself? How do you live with yourself?
Quote:
Your proof that Bush lied and that the WMD's do not exist.
The Bush administration claimed there were WMD in Iraq. After an extensive 12 month investigation none have been found. I repeat, what more proof do you need?
Your proof it was a lie, and that they don't exist.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (05/22/04 06:50 AM)
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2714616 - 05/22/04 12:14 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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look on any camera into iraq
talk to any inspector
read any report
ask the people
ask the neighbours
again and again and again and again and again and again
nothing
nothing
nothing
overwhelming evidence should lead to swift prosecution
the case hangs
while the evidence is misproven, well it would have been if it had ever been produced. Instead the allegation is misproven
again
again
again
again
It's not quite like looking for a knife on a person, but there was an excessive amount of preliminary searching before the war. If the case was so solid why not direct these UN inspecors to the goods? Why the need to push against the bounds of legality? In any case, much of the ground had been covered already and after the occupation ample time with excessive inspection has revealed no WMD.
In your tone you consistently imply that you sympathise with the Bush administration
------------------------
Your premise is wrong.
No, it's not.
It could be he lied. It could be the proof was wrong. I mean after all.... even John Kerry believed.
- yes it could be those things, either way your premise is still wrong. It is your side of the argument that has something to find, something to prove. You can only prove nothing with nothing....which seems to be doing pretty well.
-----------------------------------
You are agreeing with him, and therefore using his proof as the bedrock of your point of view.
Ah, so you can't read either. I've never said I agree with him. I've merely asked Alpo to provide the proof of his claims. Too bad you can't see the difference.
-U r arguing against alpo. In this argument your point of view is correspondant to Bush's since it is his case you are defending.
there ain't no birdtables in that garden
oh I did express Bush might not be lying:
'failing liars. (Or at best Delusional,misguided and extremely morally challenged people)'
----------------------------
uuuuh - wasn't it 'mission accomplished' over a year ago? Wasn't the mission to find the WMD? Doesn't that mean they were not found - ?????
hmmmmmmm - something doesn't add up here.......I wonder what?
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germin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2714709 - 05/22/04 01:00 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
Iraq isn't another Vietnam - it's much worse.
You'll post anything you see that attempts to portray America in a bad light, no matter how stupid it is.
One difference his source didn't bring up, in Vietnam, Kerry was supporting and participating in illegal wartime actions, and this time he is criticizing them.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
#2715162 - 05/22/04 04:08 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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You need to learn the difference between evidence and proof. When you have done so, you'll be capable of a conversation on this subject.
Or at least... not as laughable.
At least in PinochhiAl's case, he's carrying on because for him to concede would, in his mind (imo) be a humiliation, in yours... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just clueless.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (05/22/04 04:11 PM)
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unbeliever
Yo Daddy!
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Quote:
One difference his source didn't bring up, in Vietnam, Kerry was supporting and participating in illegal wartime actions, and this time he is criticizing them.
Links or sources? I like to consider myself fairly aware of what is relevant to my own life and I consider the upcoming presidential election to be very relevant. Yet I have not heard any news or even any rumors of Kerry being a war criminal during his time served in Vietnam. Please enlighten me.
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Happiness is a warm gun...
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: unbeliever]
#2715242 - 05/22/04 04:31 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I like to consider myself fairly aware
Perhaps you should reconsider.
SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
His own words.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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unbeliever
Yo Daddy!
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2715340 - 05/22/04 05:00 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
Interesting. I must have missed this, thank you for the post. It is good to see though, that he can admit his mistakes and have a change of heart and mind. If one should wish to compare that against Bush you will not get the same measure of character.
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Happiness is a warm gun...
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