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Offlineskinner
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Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice?
    #27148737 - 01/14/21 09:55 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

So last night I retardedly made up 6 new grain jars and forgot to add filters before putting them in the PC. Should I:

a. add some polifill and put the jars through another PC cycle (wondering if this would turn my grain to mush.. using millet btw)

b. throw out the grain, add the filters and start again

c. add filters in the SAB and hope for the best

d. something else?

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InvisibleNOS4A2
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Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: skinner]
    #27148747 - 01/14/21 10:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I was in the same boat. I decided to take a chance and flipped my lids in the SAB and call it good. If they look like they need air I’ll loosen the ring a bit. Maybe keep them inside a clean tote...


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InvisibleJosex
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Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: NOS4A2] * 2
    #27148767 - 01/14/21 10:20 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I have never run into a similar issue myself but if those lids with no filter happened to be closed all the way with an air tight seal, then I can see a couple issues here right off the bat.

First, steam would not be able to penetrate the grains and that means failed sterilization.

Second, the vacuum created in an air tight container after sterilization would  cause the jar to suck in an important amount of dirty air from the sab when you open them.

I'd start over.

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Offlineskinner
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Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: Josex]
    #27148803 - 01/14/21 10:46 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

the lids have holes in them so steam has definitely gotten in

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InvisibleJosex
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Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: skinner]
    #27148808 - 01/14/21 10:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If they have holes then it's very likely airborne contaminants could have gotten in the jars when you took them out of the PC. I'd personally start over tbh, I value peace of mind.

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InvisibleEZPZyaBZ
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Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: Josex]
    #27148894 - 01/15/21 12:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Josex said:
I have never run into a similar issue myself but if those lids with no filter happened to be closed all the way with an air tight seal, then I can see a couple issues here right off the bat.

First, steam would not be able to penetrate the grains and that means failed sterilization.

Second, the vacuum created in an air tight container after sterilization would  cause the jar to suck in an important amount of dirty air from the sab when you open them.

I'd start over.




Have you never heard of anyone on here flipping the lids upside down and PCing with loosened rings, and also storing on the shelf like that?

As to the idea of steam penetration of the grains, the jars I have that have polyfill are jammed pretty dang tight and my bags presealed and folded, and the idea of the steam to my knowledge is not that it gets inside of your jars or bags, as that would end up changing the moisture content if it happened to a large degree, but that the steam and environment inside of the PC is what gets pressurized to 250ish degrees when presurized to XX psi and that is what we are after in the PC/Sterilizer. A target temp for X amount of time, not steam having direct contact/access to grains as far as I understand the process.

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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: skinner]
    #27148908 - 01/15/21 01:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Toss it, lesson learned.

Dry the grain and then run the full process again.

Cool the grain, mix in a little more water and vermiculite to balance it out and run the jars again the right way.


--------------------
KRAMER CAKES



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InvisibleJosex
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Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: EZPZyaBZ]
    #27149140 - 01/15/21 05:13 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EZPZyaBZ said:
Quote:

Josex said:
I have never run into a similar issue myself but if those lids with no filter happened to be closed all the way with an air tight seal, then I can see a couple issues here right off the bat.

First, steam would not be able to penetrate the grains and that means failed sterilization.

Second, the vacuum created in an air tight container after sterilization would  cause the jar to suck in an important amount of dirty air from the sab when you open them.

I'd start over.




Have you never heard of anyone on here flipping the lids upside down and PCing with loosened rings, and also storing on the shelf like that?






Plenty of people use unmodified lids yes, but that allows gas exchange inside the pressure cooker, which is essential for proper sterilization. I was talking air tight.

Quote:

EZPZyaBZ said:
As to the idea of steam penetration of the grains, the jars I have that have polyfill are jammed pretty dang tight and my bags presealed and folded, and the idea of the steam to my knowledge is not that it gets inside of your jars or bags, as that would end up changing the moisture content if it happened to a large degree, but that the steam and environment inside of the PC is what gets pressurized to 250ish degrees when presurized to XX psi and that is what we are after in the PC/Sterilizer. A target temp for X amount of time, not steam having direct contact/access to grains as far as I understand the process.




I'm not sure you can call it an idea, looks more like a hard fact to me. Steam does penetrate the jar and no tight poly is going to prevent that.

Sterilizing a grain jar in an air tight container is going to create trapped air inside the jar and when there's trapped air steam-sterilization can't take place and you're relying on the much lesser effects of dry heat to try and sterilize it, which is just not nearly enough for grains.

Next time, for science, sterilize an empty jar with a tight poly filter and you'll see the inside of the jar is going to be wet when you take it out of the PC.

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InvisibleNOS4A2
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Registered: 07/22/04
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Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: Josex]
    #27149520 - 01/15/21 10:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Josex said:
I have never run into a similar issue myself but if those lids with no filter happened to be closed all the way with an air tight seal, then I can see a couple issues here right off the bat.

First, steam would not be able to penetrate the grains and that means failed sterilization.

Second, the vacuum created in an air tight container after sterilization would  cause the jar to suck in an important amount of dirty air from the sab when you open them.

I'd start over.





All these things. For me this was just an experiment for science. I have another batch that was done properly.


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InvisibleEZPZyaBZ
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Registered: 01/10/21
Posts: 133
Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: Josex]
    #27149603 - 01/15/21 11:32 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Josex said:
Quote:

EZPZyaBZ said:
Quote:

Josex said:
I have never run into a similar issue myself but if those lids with no filter happened to be closed all the way with an air tight seal, then I can see a couple issues here right off the bat.

First, steam would not be able to penetrate the grains and that means failed sterilization.

Second, the vacuum created in an air tight container after sterilization would  cause the jar to suck in an important amount of dirty air from the sab when you open them.

I'd start over.




Have you never heard of anyone on here flipping the lids upside down and PCing with loosened rings, and also storing on the shelf like that?






Plenty of people use unmodified lids yes, but that allows gas exchange inside the pressure cooker, which is essential for proper sterilization. I was talking air tight.

Quote:

EZPZyaBZ said:
As to the idea of steam penetration of the grains, the jars I have that have polyfill are jammed pretty dang tight and my bags presealed and folded, and the idea of the steam to my knowledge is not that it gets inside of your jars or bags, as that would end up changing the moisture content if it happened to a large degree, but that the steam and environment inside of the PC is what gets pressurized to 250ish degrees when presurized to XX psi and that is what we are after in the PC/Sterilizer. A target temp for X amount of time, not steam having direct contact/access to grains as far as I understand the process.




I'm not sure you can call it an idea, looks more like a hard fact to me. Steam does penetrate the jar and no tight poly is going to prevent that.

Sterilizing a grain jar in an air tight container is going to create trapped air inside the jar and when there's trapped air steam-sterilization can't take place and you're relying on the much lesser effects of dry heat to try and sterilize it, which is just not nearly enough for grains.

Next time, for science, sterilize an empty jar with a tight poly filter and you'll see the inside of the jar is going to be wet when you take it out of the PC.




Fair enough. I will for my own edification give that a try. I will put an empty bone dry jar with the tightest poly lid I have, one with a siliconed SFD, one with an unmodded lid flipped over. Thanks!

It's funny how even after growing untold amounts of mush one can still be figuring out the mechanics behind some of the things one has already been executing for quite some time lol, such a rewarding hobby. I thought that the moisture added to grains would steam within the jar/bag, but that the atmospheric steam in the PC itself is not just willy-nilly moving in and around your grains adding more moisture to them since you can weigh your jars or bags pre-PC and post PC and get the same weight. I will run your said experiment with empty jars and various lid setups, while also hitting some resources via google to satisfy my new curiosity. If I find something interesting/compelling I will share.

:cheers:

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InvisibleNOS4A2
This is the way


Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 572
Loc: -tite Flag
Re: Forgot to add filter to grain jars before putting them in PC. any advice? [Re: EZPZyaBZ]
    #27169050 - 01/25/21 12:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

In case anyone’s curious, not that it’s a shock to anyone, two out of four jars I pc’ed without filter lids that sealed and I had to break that seal in the SAB - turned green. 50/50 is not an acceptable ratio and I rarely get contamination in my SAB. So I conclude, as stated by others previously, having your jars seal during the pc will not kill any contams in the jar. You need steam to be able to reach the grains inside.


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