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InvisibleFerdinando
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Registered: 11/15/09
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27156969 - 01/19/21 08:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

we do get some benefit while sitting though and while meditating other than that though it is a beautiful thing
like taking trash out


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Invisiblewolfman42
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Registered: 01/06/21
Posts: 429
Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27157038 - 01/19/21 08:57 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I make no claims as to the truth of what I say here. After I saw it I realized I know nothing.

Replace the word 'ego' with 'body.' I find this is much easier to think about. Ego is such an abstract term. 

I admittedly don't understand why other things like trees or animals have consciousness. I simply believe that they do. The same way I believe the body to be its own lower form of consciousness that dissolves when the body dies leaving the spirit without body, without form.

Without form we can expand consciousness. Our soul can roam to the other realms. The other realms don't make sense to me in this realm. I do not believe we are meant to comprehend these realms. I am Christian. These other realms are for God. Not for us. Not for us while we are alive at least.

Going there too much or with selfish intentions is not warranted. There are light and dark things that dwell there. We can get in trouble if we go too far, too deep. I don't think Mushrooms are safe in that sense. As I don't think someone who is summoning spirits is safe either. Spirits are tricky things. They have no form. They can read minds. I do not take them at face value.

Edited by wolfman42 (01/19/21 03:47 PM)

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OfflineNeurotech
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: MadMonastic]
    #27157173 - 01/19/21 10:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MadMonastic said:
I apologize for going against the grain here because after all, we are in a psychedelic mushroom symposium (of sorts), but honestly, I am always skeptical of anecdotes of ego death that seem to me to be intense psychoactive intoxication. Perhaps my definition differs, coming from a monastic, very traditional, spiritual setting. However, I would wager that ego death -- as described by Christian and Eastern monastics/ascetics/hesychasts/tantrists, et c. -- is something different, perhaps more permanent or semi-permanent, and bears more fruits, than what the term is commonly applied to in the context of entheogen drug use. I of course have no doubt that genuine ego death can result from psychedelia, but I also hold firm that it is not a strictly drug-related phenomenon, and that most of the time profound intoxication =/= spiritual enlightenment. These sets are interpolated of course, because sometimes it can, right! But I also think there's a third term to consider of the experience of madness or psychosis, other extreme aberrant states of "psychopathology", and how that all gets into play when considered with this triad of drug use, mystical religious precepts, and/(or) psychotic shamanism.




I know what you mean, but a lot of the validity of what you or anyone is saying about this seems to depend on definitions of ego death, as well as how you understand ordinary reality. I do appreciate the quotation marks around psychopathology. As for enduring effects, isn't it likely that, if obtained by non-entheogenic means that it is likely more enduring? The difference may be akin to climbing a mountain to take in the view, or doing a fly-by with a helicopter if you werent able to climb there on your own.

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OfflineNeurotech
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27157193 - 01/19/21 10:44 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Ego-sleep...or suppression is more like it.  For if it died how would anyone ever speak, let alone type about it?  But seeing as the first thing on my list involves mortality, I understand why it’s often erroneously referred to as ego-death. 





Well if you believe ego-mind is actually required for brain function I suppose that's legit.  Identifying "ego" with brain function is IMHO a huge mistake though.  Ego-mind requires brain function, but brain function does not require ego-mind - that's the inherent delusion. My cat communicates perfectly well without any ego-mind.  :laugh2:




What makes you say your cat has no ego-mind? Psychological and metsaphysical definitions of ego state:

PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.
PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.

While cats do not have a language based ego mind, and are much more in the moment than those of us with constant internal chatter and a tendency to think about the past and future, they do indeed, I believe see themselves as distinct from others, and have to do a great deal of reality testing. Ego is the construct that allows you to deal effectively with ordinary reality. Clearly, my cat loses "something" when she gets a contact high from someone tripping.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Neurotech]
    #27157358 - 01/19/21 12:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well there is no sub conscious either, just memory, and recent mental activity, and current mental activity which includes sensation. Current mental activity resonates as 'engrams' which are somehow fixed ("recorded" or "saved") for later recollection.

The lore of accepted psychology is mired in error - it explains nothing but sounds reassuring if you fail to listen very closely, similar to the dynamic with religious dogma. (the DSM-5 is used in court the way the bible used to be used, helping people get away with murder)

We are still in the Dark Ages, or maybe just in the Dim Ages regarding psychological science. what we do know for sure could probably be summarized by this:

Memory is associative: things that happen together are remembered that way - and repetition intensifies association.
recollection is involuntary (the closest match for a memory reawakens directly from the cue without any effort or will)
Each memory is stored in the brain holographically, i.e. throughout the whole brain not in one spot.

We have collected mountains of data while pursuing other questions related to mind, mental illness, mental states, dreaming, and drugs. The data is mostly open to interpretation.


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Invisiblewolfman42
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27157429 - 01/19/21 12:40 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you redgreenvines I always find your posts insightful and grounded even if there may be some disagreement over religious/spiritual understanding of these experiences.

Reason is definitely needed in forums like these. I for one get very excited when talking about experiences like this because of how my experience made me feel and continues to make me feel.

I attempt to read trip reports and identify common patterns I see described here and online. There are several aspects of most trip reports that seem to have commonality. Perhaps some science to be done there even though we don't have ground to stand on when talking about these experiences because they cannot be proved with current scientific methods or technological abilities. The science simply has not caught up with the experience. Maybe it never will for us? We don't have infinite time here after all.

I'm fairly certain some of my brains have fallen out :wink:

Edited by wolfman42 (01/19/21 12:47 PM)

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Neurotech]
    #27157535 - 01/19/21 01:44 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Neurotech said:
What makes you say your cat has no ego-mind? Psychological and metsaphysical definitions of ego state:

PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.
PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.

While cats do not have a language based ego mind, and are much more in the moment than those of us with constant internal chatter and a tendency to think about the past and future, they do indeed, I believe see themselves as distinct from others, and have to do a great deal of reality testing. Ego is the construct that allows you to deal effectively with ordinary reality. Clearly, my cat loses "something" when she gets a contact high from someone tripping.




Because cats have no sense of self-importance like most humans do.  :nojustno:

The only definition of interest in this discussion is the first one below:

Quote:

e·go
/ˈēɡō/
noun
a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
"a boost to my ego"

PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.

PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.





Psychoanalytic definitions or conscious and unconscious mind have been rendered completely antiquated by current research into brain function.


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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
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OfflineNeurotech
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27157554 - 01/19/21 01:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Well there is no sub conscious either, just memory, and recent mental activity, and current mental activity which includes sensation. Current mental activity resonates as 'engrams' which are somehow fixed ("recorded" or "saved") for later recollection.

The lore of accepted psychology is mired in error - it explains nothing but sounds reassuring if you fail to listen very closely, similar to the dynamic with religious dogma. (the DSM-5 is used in court the way the bible used to be used, helping people get away with murder)

We are still in the Dark Ages, or maybe just in the Dim Ages regarding psychological science. what we do know for sure could probably be summarized by this:

Memory is associative: things that happen together are remembered that way - and repetition intensifies association.
recollection is involuntary (the closest match for a memory reawakens directly from the cue without any effort or will)
Each memory is stored in the brain holographically, i.e. throughout the whole brain not in one spot.

We have collected mountains of data while pursuing other questions related to mind, mental illness, mental states, dreaming, and drugs. The data is mostly open to interpretation.




Agreed on most counts, but I have to question your statement that cats do not have a subconscious mind. I don't think there is proof of that or how you would go about proving it. We do know that cats dream (or at least that they enter REM sleep and display behaviors suggestive of dreaming while they do), engage in observational learning and are capable of problem solving.I could mention things like learning from past behavior and experience that many would ascribe to basic stimulus response chains, but then I have to question if human behavior isn't similarly generated.
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

Neurotech said:
What makes you say your cat has no ego-mind? Psychological and metsaphysical definitions of ego state:

PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.
PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.

While cats do not have a language based ego mind, and are much more in the moment than those of us with constant internal chatter and a tendency to think about the past and future, they do indeed, I believe see themselves as distinct from others, and have to do a great deal of reality testing. Ego is the construct that allows you to deal effectively with ordinary reality. Clearly, my cat loses "something" when she gets a contact high from someone tripping.




Because cats have no sense of self-importance like most humans do.  :nojustno:

The only definition of interest in this discussion is the first one below:

Quote:

e·go
/ˈēɡō/
noun
a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
"a boost to my ego"

PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.

PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.





Psychoanalytic definitions or conscious and unconscious mind have been rendered completely antiquated by current research into brain function.




I am familiar with current research into brain function. The definition above  isn't the clinical or scientific use of the word ego. You are talking more about narcissism. While tripping can certainly impact narcissism, that is not the ego in ego death. It's not dissolving our self-esteem or self-importance that makes for ego death. It is the loss of the subjective sense of an individual self. Not the particular qualities that self possesses.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Neurotech]
    #27157684 - 01/19/21 03:23 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I wasn't talking about felines, but cats are very similar, I was talking about humans with whom specific relevant questions may be asked and that's where much data is found.

cat language does not resolve for me with any specific certainty, but this does not mean they cannot speak.

My friend Lori's cat could call her by name which was very very weird, but it was a strange cat and I never had any conversations with it.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27157774 - 01/19/21 04:16 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Alright so cats are off the list :rofl:


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27157775 - 01/19/21 04:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
The only definition of interest in this discussion is the first one below:

Quote:

e·go
/ˈēɡō/
noun
a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
"a boost to my ego"

PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.

PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.





Psychoanalytic definitions or conscious and unconscious mind have been rendered completely antiquated by current research into brain function.



I like that. For me it doesn't redefine the terms of the conversation but actually invalidates them completely. Because I'm pretty darn sure that that was not what was referred to when the ego-death term was coined. It seems to be referencing the psychoanalystic ego definition.

Not saying that the experience itself isn't something, just that the current nomenclature is misleading, antiquated and inadequate.

We should propose a new word or term to describe the experience that isn't mired by historical assumptions that do not apply.  :awesome:


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.

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OfflineNeurotech
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #27157874 - 01/19/21 05:12 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


We should propose a new word or term to describe the experience that isn't mired by historical assumptions that do not apply.  :awesome:




I agree about the term ego, especially when it refers to self-esteem - thats not what we are talking about. How about Subjective Sense of Individual Self. Gonna get me a little SSIS loss.

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Invisiblepacmanbreed
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Neurotech]
    #27158120 - 01/19/21 07:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Agree, in spirituallity the word FLESH goes beyond the given definition of norms, its more or likely close to the definition of a COMPONENT. so is LIFE.

Quote:

COMPONENT
noun: a part or element of a larger whole.

adjective: constituting part of a larger whole; constituent.



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: pacmanbreed]
    #27158357 - 01/19/21 09:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Aggregate


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 2
    #27158708 - 01/20/21 03:27 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

it is like there is a bank of meditation
say everyone meditated 2 hours a day then it would be heaven on earth in a year
and the more it meditates on average the sooner it will be it
like this
higher quality of earth like better influence
so it's like how much will I contribute to that bank


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27159266 - 01/20/21 10:44 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

"Lorreeeeyyyow"


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27159392 - 01/20/21 11:48 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

love you too bro
your writing has meant a lot to me
I'm sailing my own boat
finally back
phew biden became president today
sail your own boat
been like 8 years since I did psychedelics looking forward to getting back
if I did I would meditate almost all the time on it
maybe even dose early to get meditation like when you are awake to be awake


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with our love with our love we could save the world

Edited by Ferdinando (01/21/21 03:33 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27159646 - 01/20/21 01:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

if you do dose, make it very light. you have become much more sensitive to everything.


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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27160059 - 01/20/21 05:57 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Neurotech wrote: Psychological and metaphysical definitions of ego state:

PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.
PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.




Quote:

redgreenvines wrote: The lore of accepted psychology is mired in error - it explains nothing but sounds reassuring if you fail to listen very closely, similar to the dynamic with religious dogma.




Quote:

PrimalSoup wrote: Psychoanalytic definitions or conscious and unconscious mind have been rendered completely antiquated by current research into brain function.




I think the "ego" in ego death is best thought of as your "sense of self."

One thing that makes the psychedelic experience mind-blowing is precisely the fact that this "sense of self," your conception of what "you" are, may be wrong. It's like getting a lesson saying "you thought your mind was like this, but actually it's like this."

Reminds me of a term in the philosophy of mind called eliminative materialism

I'm also reminded of the famous essay What Is It Like to Be a Bat? - or in this thread, what is it like to be a cat!

:cat:

In terms of conscious / unconscious, personally I would use them purely to distinguish between what I am actually consciously aware of at any particular moment, and everything else happening in the brain, but admittedly that is quite different from "the unconscious" in psychoanalytic terms. The boundaries between conscious and unconscious brain processes seem to shift dramatically during psychedelic experiences, or at least it feels like that...


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Stages that precede ego-death? [Re: Aldebaran]
    #27160639 - 01/21/21 03:07 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

yes sure my two main interests now are psychological development like wanting to want harmony etc.
and psychedelics


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