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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: mndfreeze]
    #27147138 - 01/14/21 08:05 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

You better let me say what I want to  on your property or business, and you cant shut me down because
that makes you Fascist! Fuck freedom of association.


--------------------
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Fear is the mind-killer.
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I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: mndfreeze]
    #27147151 - 01/14/21 08:17 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

People have never had the ability to be heard by so many people as they have now. Ever. If anything threatens free speech it’s the people who use it on a large scale to mislead and defraud. Everyone has the right to lie, but that is an abuse of the spirit of the free speech ideal, and society is now struggling with the implications of the increasing damage it is causing.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: koods]
    #27147163 - 01/14/21 08:27 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

The same could be said about every other media form thats come along at the time though. At one point newspapers revolutionized information transfer, same with radio and TV.  Those all got used for exxxaccttllyy whats been going on and thus the fairness doctrine was born in an attempt to regulate some sort of media fairness for political shit.  Republicans tossed that bitch out though and are now crying about fairness.  Sure didn't hear em crying as Hannity spewed garbage to the masses though. 

Yeah, the internet is passing info quicker and to more people, but that's just the nature of the technology beast.  It will only get worse.  Internet, Internet 2, whatever replaces that, etc.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: qman] * 1
    #27147181 - 01/14/21 08:47 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Big Tech has big money to buy massive influence over the political system (both parties). We now have monopolies that government no longer has the power to regulate because Big Tech/Big Money regulates the government more than the other way around. This is called corporate fascism and it's too late to turn that ship around in my opinion.

The ironic aspect of this whole situation was that conservatives always thought progressive/socialists were the greatest threat to free market capitalism, they never thought it was going to be Big Business that destroyed the market place.




I 100% agree the influence of the political system is problematic. We should change the laws regarding how that can happen. Arguing that Twitter can't block Trump because Twitters holds some intrinsic value for our right to free speech however is disingenuous.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: christopera]
    #27147191 - 01/14/21 08:54 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

The outlook doesnt look good... the legislature probably will not vote for something that limits their power and money.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/14/21 08:54 AM)


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: mndfreeze]
    #27147200 - 01/14/21 09:09 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

mndfreeze said:
The same could be said about every other media form thats come along at the time though. At one point newspapers revolutionized information transfer, same with radio and TV.  Those all got used for exxxaccttllyy whats been going on and thus the fairness doctrine was born in an attempt to regulate some sort of media fairness for political shit.  Republicans tossed that bitch out though and are now crying about fairness.  Sure didn't hear em crying as Hannity spewed garbage to the masses though. 

Yeah, the internet is passing info quicker and to more people, but that's just the nature of the technology beast.  It will only get worse.  Internet, Internet 2, whatever replaces that, etc.




A lot of news papers were started to be mouth pieces for politicians. Ben Franklin being the prime example. There's nothing stopping Trump from creating his own version of Twitter. It would cost literally dollars to get going. I'm sure there are free twitter like WordPress plugins galore, then he'd need a host. For $100 the site could be ready in an hour.

That aside, we really need some better laws regarding the internet. I know Dems floated a constitution for the internet but Trump and Ajit Pai struck that down as well as all the law supporting net neutrality. It was a major loss, hopefully with Biden we will see a return to that.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: christopera]
    #27147208 - 01/14/21 09:20 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course Facebook should be allowed to ban ads as they wish - that's something different.  I was talking about if I made a post on Facebook saying I think Facebook sucks, I think they should have to keep it because a) their monopoly position, and b) I personally see their removal of my post as censorship, not free speech.  Yes, I know we disagree on b, so let's ignore b and focus on a.  Well we also disagree on a, but I have a House Antitrust Subcommittee report in my favor.



How would a monopoly position make it any less of an infringement on the 1st amendment?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27147262 - 01/14/21 10:16 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Looks like Telegram is starting to ban neo Nazis as well.

Lol.


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Offlineanatomality
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27147277 - 01/14/21 10:29 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

(concerning free speech diminishing)
Yes it is.
It is everywhere.
There are many concepts and ideas that can no longer be discussed openly and rationally in the public discourse. People have become unable to entertain new concepts, and it's fucking dangerous. Slogans and catch phrases.

Step one: Be human

Step two: Be uncomfortable with ambiguity

Step three: Invent the internet, BAM you can 'know' everything. (ahhh sweet relief from ambiguity)

Step four: Discussion is over for everyone, we already know everything, the internet told us. Anything else must be silenced.

Step five: Watch the fuck out, uncharted territory.

I wish we could all adapt to this information overload, and return to a more skeptical and rational way of communication.
When people can't deal with vague grey area concepts, humans tend to break down the world into a more simple worldview, to cope with reality. Nothing is as simple as black and white, left and right.
You need those imaginary rules, because you 'need' to understand the world. In reality you were never meant to understand completely, you just always learn the truer truth until it's over.
This is how you end up with partisans, in groups, and opposing factions.
It's not a good thing.
Make being wrong OK again is what I say. I love talking with people who can change their minds, and I try to offer this as well. Be open to opposing points.

The world needs to chill out.

I guess what I mean is that free speech is going away, but mostly because people don't want it/ hate challenging their beliefs.
Tech is just an extension of human nature (so far).


--------------------
Check out my LAGM2021 log here.
“The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”


Edited by anatomality (01/14/21 10:40 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: mndfreeze] * 1
    #27147603 - 01/14/21 01:56 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

mndfreeze said:
Not sure why everyone is acting like this is some new thing.  The entire history of the US has had media censorship.  Newspapers didn't want to run a positive piece or ad for a party? Check.  Radio doing the same? Cheeccckk.  TV? Definitely check!



Sure, back when there was a variety of media outlets, everyone could (and should) censor what they want.  But by 2012, 6 corporations owned 90% of the media, and it's only gotten worse.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27147628 - 01/14/21 02:12 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Far better than it used to be


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: koods] * 1
    #27147640 - 01/14/21 02:16 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

There are more media outlets available to the average American today than in any time in history.  To say otherwise is completely dishonest.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27147645 - 01/14/21 02:18 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course Facebook should be allowed to ban ads as they wish - that's something different.  I was talking about if I made a post on Facebook saying I think Facebook sucks, I think they should have to keep it because a) their monopoly position, and b) I personally see their removal of my post as censorship, not free speech.  Yes, I know we disagree on b, so let's ignore b and focus on a.  Well we also disagree on a, but I have a House Antitrust Subcommittee report in my favor.



How would a monopoly position make it any less of an infringement on the 1st amendment?



Again, I don't believe censorship is protected by the 1st Amendment.  Regardless, I understand your argument that companies should be free to censor anything they like, and I generally agree with that, except if a company has monopoly power.  Then it becomes somewhat dangerous for the consumer if the monopoly only allows one side of an argument.


--------------------
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27147647 - 01/14/21 02:20 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Most of the 20th century print media was controlled by a few families, and broadcast media was totally dominated by three corporations

Complaining about today’s media landscape only makes sense if you ignore the totality of human history


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Edited by koods (01/14/21 02:23 PM)


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27147653 - 01/14/21 02:23 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

You don't think the 1st amendment protects against compelled speech?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27147659 - 01/14/21 02:27 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course Facebook should be allowed to ban ads as they wish - that's something different.  I was talking about if I made a post on Facebook saying I think Facebook sucks, I think they should have to keep it because a) their monopoly position, and b) I personally see their removal of my post as censorship, not free speech.  Yes, I know we disagree on b, so let's ignore b and focus on a.  Well we also disagree on a, but I have a House Antitrust Subcommittee report in my favor.



How would a monopoly position make it any less of an infringement on the 1st amendment?



Again, I don't believe censorship is protected by the 1st Amendment.  Regardless, I understand your argument that companies should be free to censor anything they like, and I generally agree with that, except if a company has monopoly power.  Then it becomes somewhat dangerous for the consumer if the monopoly only allows one side of an argument.




The government requiring private entities to platform speech is a violation of the first amendment. If you have a problem with that, have it repealed.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27147672 - 01/14/21 02:34 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You don't think the 1st amendment protects against compelled speech?



Of course it does.  I believe censoring someone's speech, is different than compelling them to say something.

When someone makes a post on Facebook, it's understand to be the speech of the person making the post, not Facebook's.  If Facebook chooses to censor that person's speech, that's just censorship.

I've heard your arguments, you've heard mine, perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this?


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #27147674 - 01/14/21 02:35 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Is free speech diminishing in the United States?




No.

If you are using "free speech" to refer to the 1st amendment, I haven't seen any recent changes in gov't enforcement that would have diminished this right. If you are using "free speech" to refer to the ability to freely communicate with others, modern communications technology has created a period of free speech unparalleled in history - even factoring in the ability for tech companies to unilaterally ban people from their networks and services.

Trump getting the ban-hammer isn't some unprecedented act that has changed the fundamental nature of corporate social media networks. These networks have never offered speech without the risk of unilateral censorship. You can't lose what was never even on the table in the first place.



On the other hand, the underlying Internet network protocols - such as Ethernet and TCP/IP - are fundamentally anarchist technologies that do not require any special permission or product to connect to, interoperate with, or extend. If you have a computer running an operating system with a TCP/IP software stack installed, like any modern Windows, macOS, or GNU/Linux distribution, you can extend the Internet. All you have to do is connect your computer to another computer already pre-attached to it. This isn't a privilege granted by some central administrator, this is a feature built into the basic function of the system. True free speech.

What we colloquially refer to as the Internet (capital-I) is the name of a specific network. In contrast, the word internet (lowercase-i) describes any network of interconnected networks. This distinction is absolutely critical. To connect your computer to the Internet, you require the services of a company like Comcast, Verizon, or Rogers. There are, however, many internets that you can connect to for free, like Guifi in Spain or NYCMesh in New York City. Unlike the Internet, you can even create a new internet on your own, optionally connecting it to any other internet willing and able to connect back to you. Before the Internet was The Internet, it was simply an internet. To win the Internet back from the forces of industrialization suffocating the promise of freedom online, we must focus first on building new internets: we must break the Internet and our understanding of it into pieces so that we can collaboratively reconstruct it anew, and in the process threaten the literal marketshare and metaphorical mindshare that these monopolies currently have over us.

At first, you might think this is a lot of work, but in reality much of the work has already been done. The resources required in terms of money and equipment are minimal and becoming ever more ubiquitous. There is also no need to write new code or build new apps to make this happen. We already have all the raw materials we need to get the job done. The only thing we lack is broader commitment from neighbourhood residents and community members themselves.


The Internet was always anarchist, so anarchists must learn to become responsible for operating it

How we can win back the Internet by creating lowercase internets

The Internet as New Enclosure: Digitized Capitalism, the Attention Economy, and the Surveillance State


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27147677 - 01/14/21 02:36 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

The only way you stop facebook from censoring is by COMPELLING THEM TO PUBLISH THE SPEECH.  How is that compulsion NOT an infringement of the 1st amendment?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27147692 - 01/14/21 02:45 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You don't think the 1st amendment protects against compelled speech?



Of course it does.  I believe censoring someone's speech, is different than compelling them to say something.

When someone makes a post on Facebook, it's understand to be the speech of the person making the post, not Facebook's.  If Facebook chooses to censor that person's speech, that's just censorship.

I've heard your arguments, you've heard mine, perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this?




Under your argument, if someone was to post explicit calls to violence or child porn on facebook, facebook would be required to host that content.


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