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InvisibleballsalsaM
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27157940 - 01/19/21 07:54 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Slaves sometimes were also wage earners, even in the American south. I get what you're on about, though


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27157945 - 01/19/21 07:56 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Yeah.  Just ignore the fact that actual slaves were bought, sold, traded, bred, and killed as property instead of people.  But no...some dude working at McDonalds has it just as bad.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27157983 - 01/19/21 08:11 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Working a min wage job sure feels like slavery amirite?


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Lynnch]
    #27158021 - 01/19/21 08:28 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

I guess I've found success in the capitalist system by buying, selling, and trading myself as a nameless, faceless, cog.

To the point where my recent evaluation, my boss basically said I won't get promoted unless I start showing some personality outside of "shows up every day, gets it done, leaves". They want me to create the kind of social ties that weaken my ability to properly market myself. That's not even mentioning social pressures to breed.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27158031 - 01/19/21 08:31 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Yeah.  Just ignore the fact that actual slaves were bought, sold, traded, bred, and killed as property instead of people.  But no...some dude working at McDonalds has it just as bad.




If we're talking slavery in the USA, your definition as property, and right to kill them is correct, but doesn't go far enough as it fails to emphasize both the frequent mistreatment, rampant sadism, sexual abuse, and general treatment as an inferior species.

And I suppose, even though we all know it, it is still worth mentioning, that 156 years after the civil war people with darker skin are still subject to prejudice in the US; and that this sickness is so deep that even people of color often regard other people with still darker skin as inferior.

---------------
On a separate note as the government itself routinely lies to the public, as do lobbyists, corporations; and in court everybody lies lawyers, cops, the DA, and witnesses, it would seem that in some ways concern about free speech is a bit over rated--though of course we wouldn't want to live in North Korea. And free speech or not, its often best to tell the wife, the new hairdo really is wonderful.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27158044 - 01/19/21 08:36 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

People that disparage others with darker skin transcends the Civil War and is not uniquely American. In my wifes home country, people bleach their skin; if your whiter, you are rich.....if you are darker, you are a poor laborer that works outside.


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And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/19/21 08:36 PM)


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #27158066 - 01/19/21 08:44 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

If you're white enough, you die of lead poisoning.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27158070 - 01/19/21 08:46 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Opaque skin with no teeth, super sexy.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #27158084 - 01/19/21 08:52 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Modern Meth Modish


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InvisibleballsalsaM
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27158119 - 01/19/21 09:07 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Don't put words in my mouth, especially when I agree with your sentiment.

Slaves have often also been wage earners in the past, including in the American South. Where is the lie and/or how does this statement imply equivalence between a Mickey-D's fry cook and a cotton picking slave?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: falcon]
    #27158126 - 01/19/21 09:10 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27157442#27157408



Thank you for the link.  Here are a few relevant excerpts from that article:
Quote:


...courts tend to withhold protection from carrier/conduits—actors who handle, transform, or process information, but whose relationship with speech or information is ultimately functional. Definitive examples are Federal Express or the telephone company, common carriers to whom the law does not grant speech rights. Those who merely carry information from place to place (courier services) generally don’t enjoy First Amendment protection, while those who select a distinct repertoire, like a newspaper or cable operator, do.  Similarly, those who provide the facilities for job interviews are not recognized as speakers, nor are the manufacturers of technologies that record or transform information from one form into another—like a typewriter, photocopier, or loudspeaker.
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That a typewriter is not a speaker may seem self-evident. But understanding the line that divides publishers from typewriter manufacturers clarifies the problem of algorithmic output. Publishers are distinguished from typewriter manufacturers because the former engage in an active and intimate selection or curation of a repertoire of literary works.  Newspapers and cable operators provide perhaps the most prominent examples of this kind of process.

The boundary between speech product and communication tool divides computer programs. Some programs, like contemporary video games, clearly function as vessels for their creators’ ideas.  Like books or films they are constructed to communicate their creators’ ideas to an intended audience. But the algorithmic output of other kinds of programs use information as purely functional and, like the typewriter, are too far removed from the information. The creator of this class of programs does not hold First Amendment Rights with respect to its output. The program’s users may bear such rights, however, if the program facilitates their speech.
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While no one can doubt that the use of Twitter is protected speech, the speech at issue seems mainly to belong to the users, and not the creators of the software.
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.
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1. Carrier/Conduits

The first version of the functionality doctrine excludes from First Amendment protection actors whose involvement with information is too distant or mechanical to be speech. This covers those that handle or transform information in a manner usually lacking specific choices as to content, lack specific knowledge as to what they are handling, or do not identify as the publisher of that information.

Several prominent Supreme Court cases help clarify this. In Turner Broadcasting System, the Court explained that a cable operator obtains First Amendment protection only because it “exercis[es] editorial discretion over which stations or programs to include in its repertoire.”  The knowing selection of that repertoire distinguishes cable operators from carriers that merely move information without identifying or selecting the content they carry. The same inference applies to a newspaper: a newspaper knowingly selects and identifies with the content it presents.  In contrast, a telephone company, which merely carries information from place to place, has never been able to claim First Amendment rights.

The category is also well illustrated by the previously discussed Rumsfeld v. Forum for Academic & Institutional Rights, Inc.  Even though law schools refused to allow military recruiters on campus in opposition to “don’t ask, don’t tell,” the schools weren’t considered speakers.  As the Court explained, “accommodating the military’s message does not affect the law schools’ speech, because the schools are not speaking when they host interviews and recruiting receptions.”  In particular, the Court stressed the unlikelihood that the law schools would be identified with the military recruiters’ speech merely on account of their hosting them.

The cable, newspaper, and interview-hosting cases all suggest the same conclusion. They describe a difference between a publisher, who actively curates the sum total of the information presented and is identified with it, and those entities that have a more mechanical relationship to the information they carry, process, or otherwise handle. A court might say the latter are engaged in “conduct;” we can also say that, by operation of the de facto functionality doctrine, these companies are not protected by the First Amendment.




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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27158132 - 01/19/21 09:13 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Don't put words in my mouth, especially when I agree with your sentiment.

Slaves have often also been wage earners in the past, including in the American South. Where is the lie and/or how does this statement imply equivalence between a Mickey-D's fry cook and a cotton picking slave?



Where did I put words in your mouth? I was agreeing.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27158136 - 01/19/21 09:14 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Tim Wu is an activist.  I don't see why we even care what his position is.



Can you link to a source saying activists can't make rational arguments?  Especially when the University of Pennsylvania Law Review chose to publish his article?


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27158148 - 01/19/21 09:19 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You keep ignoring the active part of facebook in that equation.  You know, the part where facebook takes your post and distributes it over and over.  That's the part that puts facebook in PSEG's position. 

In Pruneyard, the shopping center did nothing with the speech.  It didn't distribute in any way.



How is building servers, programming those servers, and keeping those servers running speech?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27158149 - 01/19/21 09:19 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

It's relevant to the argument.

One of the only times that an ad hominem is a valid argument.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27158151 - 01/19/21 09:19 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Ok, not gonna lie, I'm now confused. Your reply was one of agreement, sarcastic agreement, with a position I don't hold. Or maybe it wasn't? It seems I can't be certain of anything anymore.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27158154 - 01/19/21 09:20 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Tim Wu is an activist.  I don't see why we even care what his position is.



Can you link to a source saying activists can't make rational arguments?  Especially when the University of Pennsylvania Law Review chose to publish his article?



It's a debate article. It says so right there on the abstract you linked.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27158157 - 01/19/21 09:21 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Ok, not gonna lie, I'm now confused. Your reply was one of agreement, sarcastic agreement, with a position I don't hold. Or maybe it wasn't? It seems I can't be certain of anything anymore.



The older you get, the less certainty you have. This is a good thing.


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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27158160 - 01/19/21 09:23 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You keep ignoring the active part of facebook in that equation.  You know, the part where facebook takes your post and distributes it over and over.  That's the part that puts facebook in PSEG's position. 

In Pruneyard, the shopping center did nothing with the speech.  It didn't distribute in any way.



How is building servers, programming those servers, and keeping those servers running speech?



That's how Facebook distributes speech. An artist painting is speech.  A woman taking off her top in front of the police is speech.  Burning the flag is speech.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is Free Speech Diminishing in the United States? [Re: Enlil]
    #27158180 - 01/19/21 09:30 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Well i do, but i thought with Twitter being so big maybe they would be compelled to not to ban presidents or country representatives :shrug:



Actually, you have it completely backwards.  Regardless of FW's argument, facebook would never be compelled to let the government speak through it.  That is very clear.  I don't think even FW would argue that the government can force facebook to distribute the government's speech.



Correct.

Quote:

Enlil said:
FW is arguing that a normal citizen speaking on his own behalf has a right to have his speech distributed by facebook.



Meh, not quite.  I'm arguing that a normal citizen speaking on his own behalf may have a right not to have his speech censored by facebook just because they don't like it (depending on what the courts decide).  Again, I'll agree they can censor to prevent violence, etc.

As explained in the Machine Speech article above, Facebook doesn't get involved in the speech aspect of what people post.  They simply deliver it like a courier service.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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