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Offlinekoods
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: qman]
    #27130662 - 01/06/21 02:28 PM (3 years, 22 days ago)

All the networks have just called the race for ossoff


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: koods] * 1
    #27132577 - 01/07/21 10:08 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

So now for the next two years Biden has:

- The most electoral votes
- The electoral college's votes
- House majority
- Senate majority
- The Presidency

If that doesn't bring universal healthcare or any other big ticket items into law, the Democrats are as useless as the Republicans.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: Patlal] * 4
    #27132582 - 01/07/21 10:10 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Biden already said he’d veto M4A.
Ossof is against it.
The Speaker of the House won’t even bring it to a vote.

How many different ways do the Democrats need to prove they’re useless?


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27132588 - 01/07/21 10:12 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Welp trump atleast fucked one thing up right atleast.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #27132634 - 01/07/21 10:39 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Biden already said he’d veto M4A.
Ossof is against it.
The Speaker of the House won’t even bring it to a vote.

How many different ways do the Democrats need to prove they’re useless?




Also, AOC and The Gang don't want to bring it up to a vote. Medicare For All needs to be won on the streets because The Elite aren't giving up the greatest drain on the working class without a massive battle.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL] * 1
    #27132636 - 01/07/21 10:40 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

At least they will have no more excuses for the nothing they achieve.

Maybe you will at least get some better covid response, but I expect very little from Biden's term.

Still, obviously preferable to have it dem controlled


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: qman] * 1
    #27132690 - 01/07/21 10:58 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Biden already said he’d veto M4A.
Ossof is against it.
The Speaker of the House won’t even bring it to a vote.

How many different ways do the Democrats need to prove they’re useless?




Also, AOC and The Gang don't want to bring it up to a vote. Medicare For All needs to be won on the streets because The Elite aren't giving up the greatest drain on the working class without a massive battle.




As someone who has a pretty strong opinion about most things politics, I think there’s a legitimate debate to be had whether bringing M4A to a vote right now helps or hurts. It might force Dem leadership to look like shit, but it also might fail spectacularly and be used as an excuse to bury that agenda forever. “See? We don’t have the votes. Give up.”


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: Patlal]
    #27132700 - 01/07/21 11:04 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
So now for the next two years Biden has:

- The most electoral votes
- The electoral college's votes
- House majority
- Senate majority
- The Presidency

If that doesn't bring universal healthcare or any other big ticket items into law, the Democrats are as useless as the Republicans.




They’ll fuck it up, but hopefully we get some sort of half assed healthcare. Even half assed healthcare would be an improvement.

If not, can I get an endorsement for Canadian citizenship? I already live there for a while, and I really enjoy hockey.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27132735 - 01/07/21 11:33 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think there’s a legitimate debate to be had whether bringing M4A to a vote right now helps or hurts. It might force Dem leadership to look like shit, but it also might fail spectacularly and be used as an excuse to bury that agenda forever.



I think if it makes Dem leadership look like shit, there's a better chance of voting them out next time around.  The majority of the country is ready for M4A.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27132751 - 01/07/21 11:43 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Momentum is certainly building, but I’m wary of giving the national media an excuse to label everyone supportive of universal healthcare a wrecker who just hates Democrats and the freedom of choice. The liberals will absolutely use Dem voters’ renewed trust in the media to their advantage at some point.

But like I said, I don’t know how it would play out. Nobody does.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27132766 - 01/07/21 11:50 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Seems better to me to at least try something than to accept the status quo.  :shrug:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27132780 - 01/07/21 11:55 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Maybe, but what’s the difference in optics between not having a vote and having a vote that fails?

Can’t we just say “Pelosi sucks so bad she won’t even let us vote on it?” and accomplish the same thing?

It’s gonna take massive levels of organizing to get something like M4A passed, and a floor vote in the House won’t accomplish that. The force the vote folks can’t even get other leftist orgs on board, how are they gonna take on both political parties, the media, and the health insurance industry?

I’m not trying to be overly pessimistic but it seems to me this recent lashing out at AOC is people convincing themselves that “if AOC just did what I think then we’d win” and that’s far from the case. The power necessary to do something like M4A is not there yet.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27132817 - 01/07/21 12:17 PM (3 years, 21 days ago)

It'll happen. It may take a few more years,  but it's inevitable.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27132823 - 01/07/21 12:20 PM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I’m not trying to be overly pessimistic but it seems to me this recent lashing out at AOC is people convincing themselves that “if AOC just did what I think then we’d win” and that’s far from the case. The power necessary to do something like M4A is not there yet.



I think everyone realized it wouldn't pass.  People just wanted to know who actually supports M4A and who just pretends they do so they get elected.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27133020 - 01/07/21 01:48 PM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Maybe, but what’s the difference in optics between not having a vote and having a vote that fails?

Can’t we just say “Pelosi sucks so bad she won’t even let us vote on it?” and accomplish the same thing?

It’s gonna take massive levels of organizing to get something like M4A passed, and a floor vote in the House won’t accomplish that. The force the vote folks can’t even get other leftist orgs on board, how are they gonna take on both political parties, the media, and the health insurance industry?

I’m not trying to be overly pessimistic but it seems to me this recent lashing out at AOC is people convincing themselves that “if AOC just did what I think then we’d win” and that’s far from the case. The power necessary to do something like M4A is not there yet.




Ecstatic is starting to catch onto the strategy.

Pelosi has been doing this for a few years now: most notably, she stood and took the flak for delaying impeachment until the right time.

She can take the flak for a lack of M4A until it becomes politically viable. She's playing the McConnell game.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27133062 - 01/07/21 02:04 PM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It'll happen. It may take a few more years,  but it's inevitable.




I’ve seen people make analogies to the inevitability of something like gay marriage, but there isn’t trillions of dollars at stake for allowing gay people to marry each other. I agree it’s inevitable, but how many more 50,000 annual deaths are we going to accept by kicking our feet up and deciding the it’ll work itself out eventually.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I’m not trying to be overly pessimistic but it seems to me this recent lashing out at AOC is people convincing themselves that “if AOC just did what I think then we’d win” and that’s far from the case. The power necessary to do something like M4A is not there yet.



I think everyone realized it wouldn't pass.  People just wanted to know who actually supports M4A and who just pretends they do so they get elected.




Sure, but knowing that it won’t pass the Senate means that House Dems who don’t actually support it can still vote Yes, knowing it won’t survive the Senate, so it doesn’t even achieve the “we’ll know what side everyone is on” goal.


Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Maybe, but what’s the difference in optics between not having a vote and having a vote that fails?

Can’t we just say “Pelosi sucks so bad she won’t even let us vote on it?” and accomplish the same thing?

It’s gonna take massive levels of organizing to get something like M4A passed, and a floor vote in the House won’t accomplish that. The force the vote folks can’t even get other leftist orgs on board, how are they gonna take on both political parties, the media, and the health insurance industry?

I’m not trying to be overly pessimistic but it seems to me this recent lashing out at AOC is people convincing themselves that “if AOC just did what I think then we’d win” and that’s far from the case. The power necessary to do something like M4A is not there yet.




Ecstatic is starting to catch onto the strategy.

Pelosi has been doing this for a few years now: most notably, she stood and took the flak for delaying impeachment until the right time.

She can take the flak for a lack of M4A until it becomes politically viable. She's playing the McConnell game.




But you also have to weigh that measured approach against what would happen if Pelosi did push for it. It’s like when Sanders was running, and people would say “ha, even if he does get elected president none of his agenda would pass the legislature.” Perhaps, but the White House is a great bully pulpit and no one can say what effect that would have on building public support.

Folks have to look at things from a different perspective. Do we operate based on what the polls say? Or do we try to change the polls? Bernie tripled national support for universal healthcare in just 4 years, we should be trying to win over popular support as much as we can. But at the same time, we can’t overextend and fail over and over again because that depressed enthusiasm and gives room for middling half measures like Obamacare (a right wing think tank policy).


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27133088 - 01/07/21 02:17 PM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Folks have to look at things from a different perspective. Do we operate based on what the polls say? Or do we try to change the polls? Bernie tripled national support for universal healthcare in just 4 years, we should be trying to win over popular support as much as we can. But at the same time, we can’t overextend and fail over and over again because that depressed enthusiasm and gives room for middling half measures like Obamacare (a right wing think tank policy).




That's kind of the point. Right now, M4A isn't a safe bet. It's not even a good bet. Right now, M4A is a Hail Mary pass, and Bernie's failure to win the nomination (whether legitimately or through shenanigans) is evidence of that.

If it works, it would be great, but if it doesn't work, your QB just got sacked 20 yards behind the line.

Right now democrats need to build momentum with small, incremental, changes. Best case, I think if the next two years go well and democrats can hold congress in 2022, then M4A is a good bet. That being said, incumbents holding congress is not very common. M4A may well have to wait until 2024, or even 2028.

Of course, "improvement over the next two years" shouldn't be too hard right now. If we can get covid under control by the end of the year, majority vaccinated, and maybe a nice little small business stimulus that actually goes to small businesses (as well as a few stimuli for workers), then Biden just needs to not fuck up 2022 and he'll be golden. Couple of good and public foreign policy wins, and M4A is viable in 2023.

Of course, this needs to be both achieved and publicized through the noise of the right wing media machine, which is the hard part.

Actually, I think presidential elections under the EC is a good example. Right now, a 50-50 split in the population means that republicans win in approximately 70% of scenarios. Democrats mathematically need to have a 3% edge for a presidential election to be an even 50-50 shot. This is why Bernie's failure to get the nomination, even due to shenanigans, counts.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27133103 - 01/07/21 02:22 PM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Small incremental changes is what doomed the Obama presidency, resulting in a loss of the house, senate, a thousand state legislature seats, and eventually the Supreme Court.


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27133135 - 01/07/21 02:42 PM (3 years, 21 days ago)

No, it was lack of momentum that doomed Obama's presidency. A big part of that was Obamacare and the right wing backlash over it.

You need small incremental changes that build up momentum. Politics is as much storytelling as it is actual policy. Hero's journey and all that. You can't fight the final boss on day one (unless you're playing morrowind and good at serious cheese).

Unfortunately, a big part of that is the tendency of the left wing to splinter into groups that all have their own ideas, while the right coalesces into one goose-stepping army.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Democrats win control of US Senate [Re: Kryptos]
    #27133186 - 01/07/21 03:07 PM (3 years, 21 days ago)

I get what you’re saying, but the lackluster ACA was painted as fighting the final boss. Even now we have moderate shitheels saying stuff like “no Medicare for all is authoritarian, we just need to build on Obamacare.”

It sucked all the air out of the healthcare reform movement because it presented itself as THE solution, not a stepping stone. People want the problem to be addressed so they can forget about it, and politicians know that. It’s why they were able to sit on their asses for 10 months and do nothing about the pandemic. “Well we addressed that with the stimulus checks so that’s over now.” It’s why people vote in November and then tune the fuck out.


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