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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27128010 - 01/05/21 11:32 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I'm pretty sure a robotic hand can be made to sew rugs.


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Offlineroarkell
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128023 - 01/05/21 11:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Theres a fair amount of automation in my field (welding and manufacturing) but there's no way they could 100% replace me. At some point they could get near 95% but there will always be a need for a human welder... I tend to steer clear of politics but it seems these days you have to pick a side or you'll be left behind...


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Painkiller] * 1
    #27128055 - 01/05/21 11:53 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

eventually -assuming technological advancement continues- it will be possible to automate virtually all industries and professions. Political forces might impede that for the sake of preserving jobs, but in my view the preferable route is to have public ownership before we are fully reduced to serfdom.

In spirit I suppose I am basically communist, although in terms of the actual political reality of my country and our american neighbours, I would settle for a lot less than full blown communism. Market socialism seems a necessary intermediary step, and I'm very dubious of the potential for a real-world revolution.

as to the drug question, I don't think psychedelics are necessary or sufficient to produce communism, although they could play a small role I think


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: roarkell]
    #27128131 - 01/05/21 12:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

roarkell said:
Theres a fair amount of automation in my field (welding and manufacturing) but there's no way they could 100% replace me. At some point they could get near 95% but there will always be a need for a human welder... I tend to steer clear of politics but it seems these days you have to pick a side or you'll be left behind...



There's no way that automation can replace 100% of labor needed.  People will always be required for one-off jobs and things like that.  The topic of this thread, however, is communism.  Automation is being discussed in the context of the means of production of goods.  I can't think of any production of goods that couldn't be automated.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128165 - 01/05/21 12:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
There's no way that automation can replace 100% of labor needed.  People will always be required for one-off jobs and things like that.




Are you suggesting it's an impossibility to make a robot with the same capabilities as a human worker?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: psi]
    #27128172 - 01/05/21 12:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yes.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128176 - 01/05/21 12:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Ensuring shit disappears when I flush is good in that my terracotta pipe require epoxy lining. That's a good a robot can't produce.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128182 - 01/05/21 12:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Yes.



Why?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: christopera]
    #27128183 - 01/05/21 12:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Because something is "good" doesn't make it a "good."  Plumbing services aren't a good.  Pipe is.  Epoxy is.  Manufacturing pipe and epoxy are certainly things that automation can handle.  Being a plumber, on the other hand, is a whole other thing.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: psi]
    #27128190 - 01/05/21 12:48 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Yes.



Why?



Because of the infinitely variable circumstances within which humans can and do operate.  A robot can certainly handle a lot of things, but a human brain is uniquely  able to creatively process a problem and solve it in a way that machines will not be able to do in every possible set of circumstances.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128204 - 01/05/21 12:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

True of robots that exist today, but it hardly seems like a hard limit on what could be invented in the future. The brain is just a very complex computer.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: psi]
    #27128219 - 01/05/21 01:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I certainly understand that potential, but I also think it's pretty clear that the mechanisms contained within the brain for creative thought are intrinsically tied to the process of creating the self-awareness illusion and the illusion of free will.  Before technology gets to that point, it's highly likely that an artificial intelligence will gain enough capability to fully render human existence obsolete, so we won't be around to see it reach human capability.  If we're not here, no machine will be as capable as a human because humans won't exist for that comparison.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128236 - 01/05/21 01:09 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, if you came up with a computer equivalent in power to the human brain, then that certainly would come with its own problems. You would either be enslaving beings just as sentient as humans or it would go the other way.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128239 - 01/05/21 01:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

AI Production and servicing the AI production are inseparable though.

Automated mining dump trucks still require human involvement.
Real robot welders still require similar and they've been around for a long time now - around 40 years, much longer if this idea includes profile arc cutters or CNC lathes etc.
Sometimes service problems are more than just one problem, which a robot will never have the ability to look at and solve, unless the answer = throw the entire (insert piece of equipment) in the bin.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: psi]
    #27128241 - 01/05/21 01:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It wouldn't happen all of a sudden.  Long before we mimicked a human brain, we'd mimic of some lower level mammal.  That would be more than enough to make humans extinct.  Whether that intelligence would/could ever self-evolve into human level is debatable, I suppose.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27128247 - 01/05/21 01:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
AI Production and servicing the AI production are inseparable though.

Automated mining dump trucks still require human involvement.


Today.
Quote:


Real robot welders still require similar and they've been around for a long time now - around 40 years, much longer if this idea includes profile arc cutters or CNC lathes etc.


Today.
Quote:


Sometimes service problems are more than just one problem, which a robot will never have the ability to look at and solve, unless the answer = throw the entire (insert piece of equipment) in the bin.


I never claimed that service jobs will be replaced by automation.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128265 - 01/05/21 01:24 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It will struggle with primary production of agriculture and farming and fishing.
The automation of processing meat and the production of food is not easy to upscale.


By definition AI has things in store for  us that we cannot imagine and the potential for us  to not even know when it happens.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128272 - 01/05/21 01:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yes I agree you didn't claim that. I just don't see a way of 100% separating production and servicing the production.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27128286 - 01/05/21 01:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

For most production environments, maintenance of production automation can also be automated pretty simply.  It does get more complicated under some circumstances, but in time, automation can fully service other automated processes.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Any fellow communist on the Shroomery? [Re: Enlil]
    #27128307 - 01/05/21 01:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yes that is true for most production scenarios.

The digital world produced more jobs ie mobile phones and all that entails for example.
It will be interesting if AI ends up doing similar, creating jobs in an area nobody has imagined yet.


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