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sauroman1
Emrys

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Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box?
#27123776 - 01/03/21 12:15 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Recently I was doing a lot of research on air purifiers since I have serious issues with mold and need to get rid of other pollutants such as dust, as well harmful VOC‘s,PM2.5 and PM10 particulates coming from car pollution.
Traditionally flow hoods and air purifiers use true HEPA filters (fake HEPA) which require powerful motors to push air through tiny pores but it was necessary to stop germs including viruses. BTW masks don‘t stop Corona or other viruses because to do it they would have to use HEPA size pores through which it would be incredibly hard to push air and then there is a big problem with sideway leakage. Problem with HEPA and ULPA mechanical filter technology is high power consumption and noise levels, as well as high cost of replacement filters which probably can‘t be reused. And flow hoods use different type HEPA filters producing laminar flow unlike air purifiers(?) which are rare and even more expensive.
Air purifiers also use activated carbon filters but they absorb only VOC such as solvents and odors. Older models also commonly use steel needlepoint negative ion ionizers too (modern use carbon fiber bristles). Some even have cages to which particles stick and later they can be cleaned with water.
Although newer air purifiers started using different technologies to clean air. For example photocatalytic oxidation or PCO for short (TiO2 activated with UV light) purification technology which was even used by NASA producing hydrogen peroxide to kill germs even on surfaces as well „burn“ VOC‘s. But these require reactor chamber and quartz lamp replacements.
Lastly most interesting in my view are cold plasma or bipolar ionizers. Unlike regular ionizers they also produce positive ions which prevent ozone generation. They are totally silent or don‘t need powerful fans to disperse ions, consume very little power like 10W and require no replacement parts which makes them amazing for HVAC and home air purification. They can remove particulates that are 1000times smaller than what HEPA filters can capture like mold toxins, smallest spores, viruses. Cleaning efficiency however is at most 99% so HEPA filters have advantage in this case. Finnish Genano 310 is HEPA free medical grade air purifier with carbon filter and automatic self cleaning flushing that has 99,5 %efficiency but new unit costs over 6000Eu. There were actually done tests with tobacco smoke being eliminated in container after minute of work:
Science behind here is that cold plasma ionizers produce 12kV arc through two carbon fiber electrodes that split water into positive and negative ions or hydrogen and oxygen, which then react with airborne particles causing them to stick together due to electrostatic force and become too heavy to be in the air. To know that it is working ion wind can actually be felt near electrodes. Reactive species oxidize volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and agglomerate fine particulate matter(PMx).So instead of swirling in air particles fall down. Surfaces are also sterilized with these ions provided they are properly dispersed and ionizer is of sufficient power. Power is rated by ions outputted in cubic centimeters, powerful ones like Bipolar 2400 typically produce200 million ions. They are used in Winix air purifiers whose marketing name is PlasmaWave. HVAC type units I could find sold in the USA market are Bi-polar 2400, Plasma Air 600 and GPS-2400.In Europe JONIX Steel, Genano and cheapest seems to be AFL PLASMA which I was thinking of using. Maybe they can even be homemade with high voltage transformer and carbon fiber bristle contacts, just not sure what amperage output is required. I have one very weak bipolar ionizer from Ebay so I might try it out.
If I used it in a rough still box (no front glass) with such an ionizer would it work or would the fan be needed? Ionizers can do a good job but time is needed to clean up air and sterilize surface but during work could these settled particulates rise up enough to contaminate substrate?
-------------------- "You come from realms of unimaginable power and light, and you will return to those realms.” ― Terence McKenna
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: sauroman1]
#27123858 - 01/03/21 12:48 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
A common misconception is that HEPA filters act like a sieve where particles smaller than the largest opening can pass through. Unlike membrane filters at this pore size, HEPA filters target much smaller pollutants and particles that stick to fibers through mechanisms including Interception, Impaction and Diffusion.
Masks stop corona for the same reasons. Also, the fact the virus is in an aerosol droplet not an individual particle making its size vastly greater as well.
Ionizers are a lot more of a gimmick than effective. Want evidence see what industry uses. Biosafety laboratories rely on hepa and rather than ionic attraction or even UV methods to attain extremely low particulate counts.
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Professor X
School for the Gifted



Registered: 04/18/19
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27124203 - 01/03/21 03:36 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I have a flow hood built out of a 120qt tub with a febreeze air purifier with a massive polyfil prefilter behind a 9" box fan into a purple 3m filter with a trash bag between them. I get laminar flow, the whole thing weighs 20lbs and I can put it in a closet when I'm done. I've used it for a long time now with 95% success rate (I lose 5 jars out of 100, keep in mind I run this thing 6 feet from 2 cages that house 3 and 4 adult male rats, I'd say it works great)
The whole thing cost about 120 bucks give or take and only required a tube of silicone a screwdriver some hardware and a little tubing. Everything came from walmart and home depot.
Edited by Professor X (01/03/21 03:39 PM)
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: Professor X]
#27124224 - 01/03/21 03:51 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Professor X said: I have a flow hood built out of a 120qt tub with a febreeze air purifier with a massive polyfil prefilter behind a 9" box fan into a purple 3m filter with a trash bag between them. I get laminar flow, the whole thing weighs 20lbs and I can put it in a closet when I'm done.

Got pics? That sounds worse than a shmuvbox.
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starbones
I'm an alien, I eat uranium.



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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: Professor X]
#27124240 - 01/03/21 04:02 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Professor X said: I have a flow hood built out of a 120qt tub with a febreeze air purifier with a massive polyfil prefilter behind a 9" box fan into a purple 3m filter with a trash bag between them. I get laminar flow, the whole thing weighs 20lbs and I can put it in a closet when I'm done. I've used it for a long time now with 95% success rate (I lose 5 jars out of 100, keep in mind I run this thing 6 feet from 2 cages that house 3 and 4 adult male rats, I'd say it works great)
The whole thing cost about 120 bucks give or take and only required a tube of silicone a screwdriver some hardware and a little tubing. Everything came from walmart and home depot.
That you Willy?
-------------------- Listen, I'm steel fisted with the iron lung Heavy metal ballads out the guitar where lions run.
 
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RoscoeReturns
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: starbones]
#27124311 - 01/03/21 04:41 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I’m just here for the laughs.
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ellomello
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: RoscoeReturns]
#27124420 - 01/03/21 05:47 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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idk about bipolar ion cold plasma but a cheap 5$ 110v ozone generator in a still air box seems to work with high success rate.
-------------------- PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN get back to the garden
some came singing, some come to play, some come for keeping the dark away
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: ellomello]
#27124445 - 01/03/21 06:01 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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in the sab?
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Bobbit
Even Stranger


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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: ellomello]
#27124446 - 01/03/21 06:04 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Masks stop corona for the same reasons. Also, the fact the virus is in an aerosol droplet not an individual particle making its size vastly greater as well.
I guess there ARE reasons that surgeons wear masks. . . 
Quote:
ellomello said: idk about bipolar ion cold plasma but a cheap 5$ 110v ozone generator in a still air box seems to work with high success rate.
A dry SAB works with great success too. . . Wouldn’t and ozone generator stop it from being a ‘STILL’ Air Box?
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Josex
#cheat_code


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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: mushboy]
#27124453 - 01/03/21 06:11 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I bought an ion generator time ago, when I was desperate because my contam rates while working in the SAB skyrocketed due to a severe mold infestation in the house. All I can say is that nothing changed for me and I was still having the same problems. It was money down the toilet.
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sauroman1
Emrys

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Posts: 203
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27126121 - 01/04/21 12:49 PM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
A common misconception is that HEPA filters act like a sieve where particles smaller than the largest opening can pass through. Unlike membrane filters at this pore size, HEPA filters target much smaller pollutants and particles that stick to fibers through mechanisms including Interception, Impaction and Diffusion.
Masks stop corona for the same reasons. Also, the fact the virus is in an aerosol droplet not an individual particle making its size vastly greater as well.
Ionizers are a lot more of a gimmick than effective. Want evidence see what industry uses. Biosafety laboratories rely on hepa and rather than ionic attraction or even UV methods to attain extremely low particulate counts.
Yes, I'm aware of the diffusion effect in HEPA filters and that helps to stop viruses that are tinier than mold spores. Mask pores are huge compared to HEPA filters and even HEPA type filters which in fact need to be made from very fine woven glass fiber. That's also the reason they are not washable due to risk of damaging them.
Masks can help spread out air flow and thus reduce it's travel distance, as well stop spraying saliva when coughing or talking, however viruses can still travel. Viruses can be transmitted also by clothes and body surfaces so it would make sense then to be sterilized in markets or wear hazmat suits to be fair. Surgeons still rely on powerful air purifiers, positive air pressure in the room and decontamination. Sure these measures do help little bit, but better options that is also more economical is too actually start promoting healthy lifestyle, plant based diet and regular exercise. But doctors are silent about humans being addicted to meat, calories, strong tastes, cars and that sort of stuff also harming economy and planet. Also problem is that China where virus originated is world factory due to Laogai system and forced labor low cost products what helped to spread virus around the globe.
Ionisers are not gimmick and Genano used in hospitals is good proof of this.
HEPA is an old technology that was time tested dating back to the 1940s however something is regarded as risky in high safety demand environments.
Edited by sauroman1 (01/04/21 01:09 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: sauroman1]
#27126152 - 01/04/21 01:09 PM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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That's an advertisement to try to sell it to clinics and they made it to look like it was used in hospitals
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ellomello
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: Bobbit]
#27128479 - 01/05/21 02:57 PM (3 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bobbit said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Masks stop corona for the same reasons. Also, the fact the virus is in an aerosol droplet not an individual particle making its size vastly greater as well.
I guess there ARE reasons that surgeons wear masks. . . 
Quote:
ellomello said: idk about bipolar ion cold plasma but a cheap 5$ 110v ozone generator in a still air box seems to work with high success rate.
A dry SAB works with great success too. . . Wouldn’t and ozone generator stop it from being a ‘STILL’ Air Box? 
the ozone device is run for an hour before still box use, then it's turned off and wait about an hour to let air settle.
-------------------- PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN get back to the garden
some came singing, some come to play, some come for keeping the dark away
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gone-pear-shaped
Stranger than fiction

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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: sauroman1]
#27132627 - 01/07/21 10:37 AM (3 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
sauroman1 said:Masks can help spread out air flow and thus reduce it's travel distance, as well stop spraying saliva when coughing or talking, however viruses can still travel. Viruses can be transmitted also by clothes and body surfaces so it would make sense then to be sterilized in markets or wear hazmat suits to be fair. =
Two facts you might consider: the amount of viral load one is exposed to seems to have an impact on the severity of the symptoms. So the goal isn't to block all particles that contain the virus. The second fact is that masks seem to work. I mean if you compare the countries that wear masks (and seldom take them off in public) to those that don't, you see a stark difference.
Regarding your original idea, you might like the Big Clive youtube channel, as he's always taking apart ionizers and ozone generators. But I don't think it will work in this case, as the ions impart charges to particles in the air, and they then stick to whatever surface is nearby. That sounds bad for a SAB, unless the unit can guarantee that the charging and sticking is all finished by the time the air leaves the unit.
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Marxcelium
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: sauroman1]
#27132915 - 01/07/21 01:07 PM (3 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
sauroman1 said: BTW masks don‘t stop Corona or other viruses because to do it they would have to use HEPA size pores through which it would be incredibly hard to push air and then there is a big problem with sideway leakage.
Gonna recommend you quit it with this junk since you don't know what you're talking about. Data and aerosol physics say they definitely cut the rate and severity of infections when they're widely used.
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gone-pear-shaped
Stranger than fiction

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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: sauroman1]
#27133917 - 01/07/21 07:58 PM (3 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
sauroman1 said: Mask pores are huge compared to HEPA filters and even HEPA type filters which in fact need to be made from very fine woven glass fiber. That's also the reason they are not washable due to risk of damaging them.
One more correction: HEPA filters can be made of fiberglass, also nonwoven polypropylene or polyester (electrostatically charged). Face masks also have a nonwoven polypropylene layer.
Filters are not washable because liquid water or alcohol ruins the electrostatic charge on the fibers.
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sauroman1
Emrys

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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
#27193706 - 02/08/21 12:58 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gone-pear-shaped said:
One more correction: HEPA filters can be made of fiberglass, also nonwoven polypropylene or polyester (electrostatically charged). Face masks also have a nonwoven polypropylene layer.
Filters are not washable because liquid water or alcohol ruins the electrostatic charge on the fibers.
Never heard that HEPA filters are electrostatically charged, only that there is eHEPA patent. Air purifiers, at least which I saw have ionization stage after HEPA filter. I admit that can help but are all commercial HEPA filters threated so?
Well issued face masks seem to be made of single layer woven fabric. They stop forward mouth/nose blows but by distributing them in all directions.
-------------------- "You come from realms of unimaginable power and light, and you will return to those realms.” ― Terence McKenna
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Professor X
School for the Gifted



Registered: 04/18/19
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: mushboy]
#27193962 - 02/08/21 04:08 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said:
Quote:
Professor X said: I have a flow hood built out of a 120qt tub with a febreeze air purifier with a massive polyfil prefilter behind a 9" box fan into a purple 3m filter with a trash bag between them. I get laminar flow, the whole thing weighs 20lbs and I can put it in a closet when I'm done.

Got pics? That sounds worse than a shmuvbox.
I'll post it next time I get it out. I don't care how it looks, it works. It works because of the ultra low flow rate because of all the restriction. I've done hundreds of jars and plates in front of it and had a dozen failed jars due to improper sterilization and 0 bad plates.
A schmuvbox is a dumb idea, so is an ionizer in a SAB or any other high flow bs contraption. The only reason mine works is all the filters and laminar flow. I got the idea watching this asshat on YouTube put filters on a box fan, I just improved on it and built something that actually works and doesn't look like lab equipment, require ordering lab supplies or take 2 people to move.
And HEPA are made from PET not polyester big difference. Also N95 masks use a meltblown layer, it's not woven.
Edited by Professor X (02/08/21 04:11 PM)
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ellomello
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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: Professor X]
#27196128 - 02/09/21 06:49 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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that's great and all but you shouldn't call other peoples contraptions dumb  The ozone-ionizer in SAB works great, has no air movement, high success rate in a not very clean work area.
Also the ozone generator is size of a 1990's cell phone.
-------------------- PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN get back to the garden
some came singing, some come to play, some come for keeping the dark away
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Professor X
School for the Gifted



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Re: Bipolar ion or cold plasma ionizer as a filterless alternative to HEPA flow hoods or still air box? [Re: ellomello]
#27196391 - 02/09/21 09:11 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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If it works then it works. More than one way to skin a cat. I don't doubt you at all. I do know the SAB with a fan doesn't work or a fan with a filter or any of that. I made a sterile air box once that worked had air flow and vacuum, the scientific name is aseptic isolation box. Took like 80 hours to build but it's awkward, too big, not practical and looks like some home meth lab shit.
Sorry if I insulted you. I thought you were running some sort of fan. In my experience a SAB doesn't need help. No contraption will fix bad technique either.
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